I am an atheist

[_A]

God never, ever would create souls instantaneously in Hell. What are you talking about?

Premise 1 - Your god is omniscient.
Premise 2 - Your god makes souls
Premise 3 - There is a hell, and some souls go there.

If you are saying that your god knows all, then he knew souls were going to be going to his torture chamber before he even made them!!!
I know you were asking someone else, but I thought I could help.

 

[Pillar_of_truth]

Premise 1 - Your god is omniscient.
Premise 2 - Your god makes souls
Premise 3 - There is a hell, and some souls go there.

If you are saying that your god knows all, then he knew souls were going to be going to his torture chamber before he even made them!!!
I know you were asking someone else, but I thought I could help.

Well, premise 3 is not exactly correct. It would be more correct to say that “There is the high probability that some souls will choose alienation from God.”

That’s essentially what Hell is. Self-chosen alienation from God. Now…shall God force the soul to be with God even though the soul has configured itself otherwise? It isn’t His torture chamber, btw. The absence of God is torture enough, true, but that is a self-chosen destiny for the soul that ends up there.

A very sad state of affairs, there is no arguing that. However, shall we say that God therefore should not create souls, knowing that some of them are highly likely to choose alienation from Him? I should say not. What about the infinite happiness of the others?

 

[_A]

Well, premise 3 is not exactly correct. It would be more correct to say that “There is the high probability that some souls will choose alienation from God.”

That’s essentially what Hell is. Self-chosen alienation from God. Now…shall God force the soul to be with God even though the soul has configured itself otherwise? It isn’t His torture chamber, btw. The absence of God is torture enough, true, but that is a self-chosen destiny for the soul that ends up there.

A very sad state of affairs, there is no arguing that. However, shall we say that God therefore should not create souls, knowing that some of them are highly likely to choose alienation from Him? I should say not. What about the infinite happiness of the others?

You are missing the point that he knows in advance (according to the premise about omniscience) that some will suffer in that way. He makes them just for the purpose of suffering. If he didn’t like it that way, it must have been someone else that forced him to do it this way.(or does that interfere with his omnipotence)

 

[Jacafamala]

[QUOTE_A_;You mean Yahweh, right? I don’t consider him to be that good. Claiming that he arranged the largest act of genocide ever (the flood) shows just how good he is.Tried it - nothing. Just tried it again - again, nothing. That for me is enough proof for today that your god does not exist.

We could talk until the cows come home, me saying “No, no: He’s a good God!” and you saying, “God doesn’t exist.” But hey, we’re all gonna die, so eventually we’ll both either know I’m right, or we’ll both not know anything at all, but you’ll have been right. So either way, I win. --just kidding!

By the way, please tell me how I would tell the difference between the actual true god, and an hallucination.

If a person is crazy, they’ll be other signs/syptoms. Instability will eventually surface one way or another. The world is chalk-a-block full of people who’ve seen the Blessed Mother and Her Son. A few are not crazy or out for the money/attention.

The whole belief system you have causes this downward look.

On the contrary. I think my Faith helps to love others more.

You have not been disrespectful, but you do express that you think I lack something by not believing.

Fair enough, but still I’m no better than you. Don’t you, as an atheist, think I’m lacking something? Surely you must think that you know something that I don’t. Do you look down on me for lacking your knowledge and experiences?

You haven’t called me a sinner - and I appreciate it. What I was trying to describe is that your mythos suggests that everyone needs to be cleansed of original sin, or they aren’t clean.

Ultimately, yes: I do believe that we will all need to be cleansed. But what God made is good, very good.
[/quote]

 

[Pillar_of_truth]

You are missing the point that he knows in advance (according to the premise about omniscience) that some will suffer in that way. He makes them just for the purpose of suffering. If he didn’t like it that way, it must have been someone else that forced him to do it this way.(or does that interfere with his omnipotence)

He knows that it is very likely that some will. He does not make any individual for the purpose of suffering, however. He simply sees that the “downside” of allowing free will is worth the cost.

Without the possibility of choosing Hell, there would also be no possibility of choosing Heaven. Without the possibility of hate, there is also no possibility of love. Without free will, there is only, for lack of a better term, automation.

Really, neither you nor I can fully understand what it is like to be a being outside of time. We are used to thinking of everything in the realm of cause and effect, except for atheists being content to think the universe has no cause, lol (sorry, couldn’t resist)

I tend to think that omniscience means that God knows all things that are. That means, if God knows it, it is. I think what you are trying to say is that, if God sees that someone will eventually end up in Hell, He should go “back” and intervene earlier in the timeline, and kill that person in their infancy or some such thing.

Here, we are completely speculating. Neither you or I understand enough to give a definitive answer to this, but I tend to think that God is not constantly blotting people out of the timeline, because of what He saw they did in the “original” timeline. Or maybe He does, sometimes, and that is why babies die.

 

[_A]

Ultimately, yes: I do believe that we will all need to be cleansed. But what God made is good, very good.

If your god is infallible, and what he made is good (your words), HOW DARE YOU suggest that his creations need cleansing?
If he really did exist, he would have gotten it right the first time, don’t you think? Why do you need to fiddle with it?

 

[_A]

He knows that it is very likely that some will.

Omniscience suggests that he knows exactly how many will. Before he makes them. He makes them that way.

Without the possibility of choosing Hell, there would also be no possibility of choosing Heaven. Without the possibility of hate, there is also no possibility of love. Without free will, there is only, for lack of a better term, automation.

False dichotomies, anyone?

Really, neither you nor I can fully understand what it is like to be a being outside of time.

On the contrary, you are trying to tell me just what it means to be a being outside of time. How do you know?

We are used to thinking of everything in the realm of cause and effect, except for atheists being content to think the universe has no cause, lol (sorry, couldn’t resist)

I don’t know the atheists who presented that theory to you, but I have never heard it (though it is more practical than ‘goddidit’ sorry, I couldn’t resist either)

I tend to think that omniscience means that God knows all things that are. That means, if God knows it, it is. I think what you are trying to say is that, if God sees that someone will eventually end up in Hell, He should go “back” and intervene earlier in the timeline, and kill that person in their infancy or some such thing.

Nope, I think he saw before he made that ‘soul’ (just what kind of lumber does he use for that??) that it was destined for hell. He made it anyway, so he made it for hell.

Here, we are completely speculating. Neither you or I understand enough to give a definitive answer to this, but I tend to think that God is not constantly blotting people out of the timeline, because of what He saw they did in the “original” timeline. Or maybe He does, sometimes, and that is why babies die.

Babies die because your god made a mistake in counting? Sounds like the level of Yahwehs’ ethics from the bible. No surprise here.

 

[Pillar_of_truth]

Omniscience suggests that he knows exactly how many will. Before he makes them. He makes them that way.

You claim that it suggests that. Now who is claiming that they know what it is like for a being outside of time? Omniscience need only mean that God knows everything that is (i.e. something that has already happened in the timeline). It then becomes a question of, knowing what is, does God go and intervene earlier in the timeline to change it?

For God, is there such a moment as the moment that “He makes them”? If there is such a moment, wouldn’t He see that soul’s entire life at the same moment? And if He saw the life of that soul, wouldn’t it mean that that life took place in the timeline?

False dichotomies, anyone?

Again, you claim it is a false dichotomy, but exactly how is love possible without free will?

Nope, I think he saw before he made that ‘soul’ (just what kind of lumber does he use for that??) that it was destined for hell. He made it anyway, so he made it for hell.

Not necessarily. I think you are just attributing the worst motives to God here. I don’t understand the point of that. At any rate, you are not arguing against the Christian God (other than maybe the Calvinist God) here, since by definition, He would not create a being if He knew “beforehand” that that soul, if created, would necessarily go to Hell.

I think this stems from people’s insistence on using traditional temporal thinking.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

If Alexander was a great conqueror, he must have known as much as he could about every city which he attacked. I would expect that this would include local beliefs. If he came across a prophecy that would be profitable for him to fulfill, I am fairly sure he would have done it.

Unless i am mistaken, you are quite alone in your belief about Alexander. I find no credible historian who takes your view. Indeed, those i have found indicate that the stories of Alexander meeting with Jewish religious leaders are mere fables.

When it comes to accurately representing history, it makes sense to base one’s beliefs on objective evidence and historical facts rather than fairy tails. Don’t you think?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

@Socrates4Jesus … I think we can both agree that predicting that a city/town would fall to warfare is nothing special, and it is the precise nature of it’s destruction that you are trying to argue is prophetic. …

Yes, Phooney, i completely agree that predicting that Nebuchadnezzar would sack the mainland city of Tyre is not a miracle. It might have been a lucky guess. Ezekiel also predicted the fall of many cities to Nebuchadnezzar. How he could know what cities would fall and what cities would remain standing after Nebuchadnezzar’s campaign might be harder to explain away.

Now, it has been said that nearly every ancient city within 1,000 miles of Jerusalem has had its history accurately predicted in the pages of the Bible. However, the reason i chose the prediction about one city instead of showing prediction after prediction after prediction of many cities is that i thought it would become tedious to describe so many predictions that came true. It’s much less tiresome to just pick one that i personally find to be one of the most remarkable and discuss its significance.

I know you came into this discussion late, Phooney, so you might have missed the challenge given to me by A, which was to provide objective evidence that an omniscient being actually exists. He did not think any such evidence could possibly be given. My response was to try to show something that, if an omniscient being exists, only he she or it would know. One thing that such a being (if real) would know that you or i could never know with certainty and consistency is the future.

So, i imagine myself or someone like yourself shouting up to heaven saying, “If you exist, whoever or whatever you are, then prove it! Tell me something i could never know.” Isn’t that exactly what Ezekiel claims his God has done? Tell me honestly: Can you think of any other time in recorded history when an entire city was shoveled into a sea by human hands so that nothing was left of its ruins but a bare rock?

“They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.”(Ezekiel 26:12-14)

biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=33&chapter=26&version=31

 

[Pax]

I didn’t make law the phrase “thou shalt not kill”, but if I made a law, you could expect me to respect it - or, if I went ahead and killed anyhow, you could say that I had demonstrated a disrespect for it.

You are still avoiding the issue I raised. So be it…we are done with it…it is pointless for me to nag you.

 

[Jacafamala]

If your god is infallible, and what he made is good (your words), HOW DARE YOU suggest that his creations need cleansing?
If he really did exist, he would have gotten it right the first time, don’t you think? Why do you need to fiddle with it?

Please don’t shout, and please remain respectful, or I’m out of here. I’ve enjoyed talking to you–up until now. It’s made me feel like the internet is such a wonderful thing: it’s truly wonderful! I can talk to* anyone*. And it’s been fun sharing with you, up until now. But to your credit, I think you’ve had a horrible lot thrown at you, and too fast. And you’ve kept up with it all. This is a big forum. I’m impressed that you’ve kept up with the relentless onslought of posting here on this thread over the past however many days–a lot of days.

But anyway: how dare I? It’s because of free will. That’s how. Free will makes us like God. We were created in His image, not because He needed us, but because He loves us.

 

[repo_man]

I like my steak well-done.

and you accuse me of being an uneducated brute. how dare you?

 

[_A]

You claim that it suggests that. Now who is claiming that they know what it is like for a being outside of time? Omniscience need only mean that God knows everything that is (i.e. something that has already happened in the timeline). It then becomes a question of, knowing what is, does God go and intervene earlier in the timeline to change it?

Omniscience means knowing all. Not knowing most things. If he makes souls, he makes them to suffer. You only need to look around to see just how much he enjoys creating suffering.

For God, is there such a moment as the moment that “He makes them”? If there is such a moment, wouldn’t He see that soul’s entire life at the same moment? And if He saw the life of that soul, wouldn’t it mean that that life took place in the timeline?

So he can’t avoid torturing souls? So much for omnipotence…oh well, it wasn’t one of his main attributes anyway.

Again, you claim it is a false dichotomy, but exactly how is love possible without free will?

I wasn’t the one who said that love is possible. Or free will. We are examining your beliefs. I still see nothing about them that makes me believe.

Not necessarily. I think you are just attributing the worst motives to God here. I don’t understand the point of that. At any rate, you are not arguing against the Christian God (other than maybe the Calvinist God) here, since by definition, He would not create a being if He knew “beforehand” that that soul, if created, would necessarily go to Hell.

Oh, he wouldn’t, wouldn’t he? Then he doesn’t know all? Or he doesn’t punish?

I think this stems from people’s insistence on using traditional temporal thinking.

That is the kind of being that is addressed in the bible. Another error on the part of your god?

 

[_A]

Unless i am mistaken, you are quite alone in your belief about Alexander. I find no credible historian who takes your view. Indeed, those i have found indicate that the stories of Alexander meeting with Jewish religious leaders are mere fables.

When it comes to accurately representing history, it makes sense to base one’s beliefs on objective evidence and historical facts rather than fairy tails. Don’t you think?

Thats why I don’t read the bible…It was an OK fairy tale when I was a kid, but I grew out of it.
Unless you meant that I was reading fairy tales about Alexander researching the city he was going to sack. I guessed it - didn’t read it anywhere. He would have been a fool (history suggests that he was not) to invade a city without doing any research. I just suggested that his research brought him that prophecy and he chose to fulfill it to satisfy a military goal. Real - no, plausible, I think yes…much more plausible than a god who hides the only evidence of his existence in an ancient book.

 

[_A]

You are still avoiding the issue I raised. So be it…we are done with it…it is pointless for me to nag you.

What do you think of a being that does not obey it’s own laws? I think of the word ‘hypocritical’ and I think ‘disrespectful’.
You are right about the pointlessness of nagging me. Discuss all you like - even ask questions. I will answer the best I can.

 

[_A]

Please don’t shout, and please remain respectful, or I’m out of here. I’ve enjoyed talking to you–up until now. It’s made me feel like the internet is such a wonderful thing: it’s truly wonderful! I can talk to* anyone*. And it’s been fun sharing with you, up until now. But to your credit, I think you’ve had a horrible lot thrown at you, and too fast. And you’ve kept up with it all. This is a big forum. I’m impressed that you’ve kept up with the relentless onslought of posting here on this thread over the past however many days–a lot of days.

But anyway: how dare I? It’s because of free will. That’s how. Free will makes us like God. We were created in His image, not because He needed us, but because He loves us.

I was trying to get across to you that, if you believe that your god is infallible, and the creator of all, then don’t mess with his creations - he must have done it just the way he wanted the first time. If he needs your help, he is not as omnipotent as stated in the bible.
Sorry if you felt I was attacking…it was a shot at humour, might have even been a ****** one - but I was not aiming to offend you.

 

[_A]

and you accuse me of being an uneducated brute. how dare you?

I like my steak well done because, if I am not cooking it, I don’t trust the cut of meat as much as I might if I were the cook, and could inspect it. If I am cooking it? WELL DONE !
I AM an uneducated brute, though…and I don’t mind.

 

[Pax]

Please demonstrate how God’s commandment to man, “Thou shalt not kill” prevents God from punishing man by death when necessary. You have a huge gap in logic in claiming that God’s command to man vis-a-vis other men becomes a command unto himself.

 

[_A]

Please demonstrate how God’s commandment to man, “Thou shalt not kill” prevents God from punishing man by death when necessary. You have a huge gap in logic in claiming that God’s command to man vis-a-vis other men becomes a command unto himself.

Your god has no rules or morals to bind him. That is what I have been trying to say. He is immoral, and not up to our contemporary standards of ‘good’.
He doesn’t even stick to the rules which he DID state. He can order babies heads smashed as part of an attack on a city. If a modern leader did that, he would be tried and convicted of war crimes. Noone would accept that kind of behaviour anymore.