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Pax
Guest
Nice try, but you are not in a position to judge any such thing. Moreover, you haven’t answered the specific question I asked.
Think about this. If I own a dog and I train and teach the dog, then I have a reasonable expectation that the dog will do certain things and not others. I would not allow my dog to eat at my dining room table. Likewise, I would not allow my pet rat to eat at my dining room table. Furthermore, I would not let my experimental bacteria living in my laboratory petrie dish to eat at my dining room table.
Just because I do not allow these creatures to eat at my dining room table does not mean that I cannot or will not eat at my dining room table. Likewise, there is nothing unjust or hypocritical in my actions. Your view of God in relationship to His creation is way off the mark. You are attempting to make connections where there are none. God is the creator not man. Man does not make the rules and man is not in a position to judge. We are not in a position to know what God knows or to make judgments on his decisions any more than bacteria are in a position to judge us or our actions against them.
Try thinking of everything you know, in a general sense, about the world and the life that lives on our planet. Then start thinking about our solar system, the galaxy, and then the universe. When you’ve wrapped your head around this then look back upon yourself and see just how insignificant you are in the grand scheme of things. Once you’ve done this try turning your attention to the Creator of all of these things. When you reflect on these things this way you “begin” to get an “inkling” as to what is wrong with your arguments. God has complete sovereignty over all things that He has created.
J
Jacafamala
Guest
Sometimes it’s hard to tell on the internet.
Again, God chooses to let us choose. Otherwise we wouldn’t be who we are, we would be puppets. A person in hell, or a demon in hell can still feel pleasure, but it is a pleasure that is filled with hate. This is what the exorcist, Fr. Fortea says in his interview in the book, An Exorcist Tells His Story. They (the demons, and although he doesn’t expressly say it, also the damned),like things that way–filled with hate. God respects that. A, I am sure that you can see there are people this side of the veil who like life that way: filled with hatred. They’re people who wouldn’t want their lives ordered in any other way. Some already have one foot in hell while they live.
A
Aleii
Guest
I’ll bite.To answer me, you must be able to reconcile the issue I outlined earlier. It goes like this:
“My point still remains unanswered. You don’t seem to have a problem dispatching living creatures that are far closer to you in kind than the infinite difference that exists between God and man. Nevertheless, you object to God doing as He sees fit to His creation which is infinitely inferior to Him.”
Compare what you do with what God does. Compare your position with animals in your environment with God’s position vis-a-vis “His” creation. Then reconcile your view of your actions with your view of God’s actions. This is something you have not done, and this is why I am not satisfied with your responses. They simply haven’t been on task.
That could be my fault because I am not always clear in my presentations. Moreover, communication in forums can leave something to be desired. Anyway, that’s it in a nutshell…that is if I made myself clear.
If I were to privately create something, like a painting, I’d have no qualms about destroying it in any manner that I see fit. It has no feelings of pain so I can destroy it how I want. But, if my painting was on display and had special meaning to a fan, I’d weigh the pros and cons and probably not destroy it then.
If I have a dog that has viciously attacked another
If I see a cockroach in my house,
I’d have no qualms about destroying them, as they are a threat to my family/others, and to me, it is self defense. I would not go out of my way to find and kill animals that don’t present a direct threat.
Where does my response differ from that of God?
-I will not destroy these things in a way that causes one more ounce of pain than is needed. I will destroy it in the quickest, most humane way possible. Torturing animals is horrendous and unnecessary. God could snap his fingers to cause the death of anyone; however, ordering a flood, or ordering war, which is a painful way to die, and which causes unnecessary suffering among animals and children, is appalling.
-I can not think of any way to rehabilitate these creatures so that they will be of no harm, nor can I think of a feasible way to move these creatures to another area where they will be of no harm. God has infinite power and options. He could easily talk to ‘evil’ people to educate them, or, could relocate them to a place where they are not a threat. Not only does killing someone slow cause suffering and take a life, but it traumatizes those who had a connection with that person or saw that death. Would you rather a loved one be killed or be rehabilitated? Now, think of a child that happens to be in a less-than-ideal family. Do they in any way deserve any ounce of pain simply because of where they were born? *Justify causing a child under the age of reason suffering. *
-I have no problems with killing an animal for food, since I need food to live, and meat is a good way to get certain nutrients – that’s a fact of biology. I don’t eat that much meat though. And I would in no way see the benefit of a slow death. God doesn’t need to eat so that’s a moot point.
Another thing that doesn’t make sense – god knew, right from the start, that by creating Adam and Eve, he was putting into play actions that would result in the cause of people that god eventually kills. So why not intervene early to prevent the need to kill, instead of killing? And why is there even a need for god to kill when god is perfect? God could have decided not to create humans at all, in the first place, or, could have educated humans better.
If you make a painting, and put it outside, knowing it is supposed to rain tonight, and knowing that rain will ruin your painting, would you be mad when you woke up the next morning to find your painting ruined? Likewise, why is god angry when his creation does exactly as he knew they would, exactly how he planned when he created them?
As well, I certainly wouldn’t tell a child I created that they couldn’t hit their sibling, and then go on to hit my spouse or child. A parent is supposed to be a role model, with superior moral reasoning and leads by example. God has vast ability that is tossed to the side in favor of options that require far less effort, such as killing and threatening. This seems like the opposite of what should be for an omnimax god. Simply because you have power over another does not mean it can be abused.
When you start seeing how god is acting in ways that seem opposite as to what should be, then you will start to see the problems atheists have with this religion. It does not make sense, therefore, it is looked on to be problematic. Saying you can not judge god is a cop out to serious analysis of tough questions of what should and should not be considered truth.
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_A
Guest
I exercise judgement plenty, and I will keep doing it. You do too (i.e.-judging your bacteria and your rat not fit to eat at your table).
All this rests on your unproven assertion that your god is the real god of the universe. Remember that. I don’t just accept things he does as ‘good’, to me I have to measure them against what I know as ‘good’. This is perfectly valid, by the way. ‘Good’ is a human word, to describe a human concept.
When Yahweh decides to drown everyone slowly, instead of just killing them instantly with a thought, he is not doing what this world thinks of as ‘good’. When he asks soldiers to ‘dash babies heads against rocks’, he is not only doing a bad deed, he is also showing cowardice by not doing his own dirty work.
If your god asked you to dash babies heads against rocks, would you?
Today?
You lost me. I have no reason to think that there is a creator.
You keep saying that we are supposed to have ‘free will’. If Yahweh has sovereignty over us, we do not have free will.
sov·er·eign·ty /ˈsɒvrɪnti, ˈsʌv-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sov-rin-tee, suhv-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties.
- the quality or state of being sovereign.
- the status, dominion, power, or authority of a sovereign; royalty.
- supreme and independent power or authority in government as possessed or claimed by a state or community.
- rightful status, independence, or prerogative.
- a sovereign state, community, or political unit.
Are you allowed to think that your Yahweh might not be such a good character? Is there a penalty for thinking such thoughts?
T
Tracyms1974
Guest
You seem to think that “being bad” is a-ok. Do you make a habit of going around murdering people? Do you rob banks at gunpoint on the weekends for your amusement? If not, then why do you sit here and adamantly defend these people’s right to be bad? Why defend anyone’s right to be bad? Hey everybody - let’s go blow up all the prisons! We don’t need them anymore because A here has just declared that being bad is A-OK! Chaos and destruction are now completely acceptable because A says so. God doesn’t know what He’s doing; let’s all follow A and be naughty!!! Hell? What’s that? Never heard of it. Nobody’s going there now because A did away with Hell. No more Hell, everybody! Do exactly as you wish!!
I just thought of something when I said, “Let’s blow up the prisons.” Back in the time of Moses, there were no prisons. Justice had to be swift for the safety of all involved. You tell me how a nomadic tribe is going to contain a sadistic killer while he considers repentance. It ain’t going to happen.
I think that God used the flood to kill all those people because even though God can do what He wants, He still likes to work within the physics of this world in order not to shock people. He could snap His fingers and make new babies, but instead He chooses to let the poor women carry and grow the baby for nine months. Not many shortcuts with God. (I was just kidding when I said “poor women.” Pregnancy ain’t that bad. Labor is, though.)
Oh yeah, God did not make people sinful. Adam and Eve introduced original sin into this world when they listened to the Devil and ate from the Tree of Knowledge. God made us to be completely innocent. Man chose to sin, and although it was seemingly a minor sin at the time (eating a silly apple off the tree), it sure did open a whole can of worms. Now everybody is born with original sin, and it can only be erased by Baptism. And even then, Concupicense (desire to sin) remains and don’t forget about temptation. It’s a wonder anybody does behave.
Tracy
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Pax
Guest
Aleii,
Thanks for approaching the issue I raised. I believe, however, that
you assume way too much. First of all the Jews were the chosen people…they are the family of God and He was protecting them. Please read my post #454…it deals with this point and why God dealt so harshly with the pagans.
You are using the thinking of modern man in the comforts of a relatively sophisticated and humane society. The OT pagans were just awful in the way they treated one another and even worse in the way they treated their neighbors. They even sacrificed their children to their pagan gods such as Molech. These folks had plenty of opportunity to have a change of heart. They had the example of the chosen people yet they would not change. Even Pharaoh continued to harden his heart after God progressively increased the punishments in persuading Pharaoh to release the Jews. Rehabilitation was apparently not an option.
Most of what was contained in the remainder of your post has already been answered in my prior posts. Please be advised that the OT scriptures are filled with instances of God showing restraint and even reversing a decision to punish people in the fashions that you have described. Your position is understandable on a purely human level of how you believe one human being should treat another. This is all well and good but your views in this regard are largely a product of Judeo-Christian values. Read scripture in its entirety. The OT and NT say so much more than what your narrow view of God and His justice would indicate. What appears to you as cruelty in the OT is actually justice. That may be hard to appreciate from a strictly human to human perspective in the modern age. This perspective does not suit the facts and circumstances of pagan culture and understandings. God dealt with them in justice and in the only fashion they could understand and appreciate.
You also need to understand and appreciate the difference between an infinite and omnipotent God and the finite men of creation. If you sin/offend your neighbor you can usually fix the issue. Man being finite cannot make an atonement of infinite value for an offense against our infinite God. You contend that God is simply cruel. God so loved the world that He sent His only son Jesus who could offer the one sacrifice that provides the required atonement, expiation, and redemption that has “infinite” value.
Our sins make us deserving of death if we cannot provide atonement. God himself, out of love, provides the atonement and redemption. Is God cruel(?)…not in my view.
Thanks for approaching the issue I raised. I believe, however, that
you assume way too much. First of all the Jews were the chosen people…they are the family of God and He was protecting them. Please read my post #454…it deals with this point and why God dealt so harshly with the pagans.
You are using the thinking of modern man in the comforts of a relatively sophisticated and humane society. The OT pagans were just awful in the way they treated one another and even worse in the way they treated their neighbors. They even sacrificed their children to their pagan gods such as Molech. These folks had plenty of opportunity to have a change of heart. They had the example of the chosen people yet they would not change. Even Pharaoh continued to harden his heart after God progressively increased the punishments in persuading Pharaoh to release the Jews. Rehabilitation was apparently not an option.
Excuse me but most of us do not have any control over how the animals we eat are treated before and during their processing into packaged food. I have no problem with killing for food or paying others to do it for me. The problem is that the animal is a living creature and you have no problem killing it. You can make up any reason you want for killing it, including the necessity of your own survival. The fact is you took its life. If God takes a life of any kind, it is completely separate from human morality. Humans did not create any of the life forms that they routinely destroy. I could list hundreds of ways that we kill living things other than for food and in no case do we have any justification or right to do so that remotely resembles the rights of the Creator. This is not a matter of power. It is a matter of sovereignty. Please explain to me where you get your sovereignty over the life of any other creature for any purpose whatsoever. You say it is by way of biology and I assume power. If that is your justification it is pretty weak compared with that of the creator. And remember, the creatures you kill are from an atheist perspective very much like you. An omnipotent creator is so much greater than anything in His creation. The distance in nature and kind is huge between God and man, and it is relatively small between man and the creatures man consumes.
It’s all about free will and preserving free will. Free will is one of the things that makes us human beings. Some of this has been answered by another poster.
Most of what was contained in the remainder of your post has already been answered in my prior posts. Please be advised that the OT scriptures are filled with instances of God showing restraint and even reversing a decision to punish people in the fashions that you have described. Your position is understandable on a purely human level of how you believe one human being should treat another. This is all well and good but your views in this regard are largely a product of Judeo-Christian values. Read scripture in its entirety. The OT and NT say so much more than what your narrow view of God and His justice would indicate. What appears to you as cruelty in the OT is actually justice. That may be hard to appreciate from a strictly human to human perspective in the modern age. This perspective does not suit the facts and circumstances of pagan culture and understandings. God dealt with them in justice and in the only fashion they could understand and appreciate.
You also need to understand and appreciate the difference between an infinite and omnipotent God and the finite men of creation. If you sin/offend your neighbor you can usually fix the issue. Man being finite cannot make an atonement of infinite value for an offense against our infinite God. You contend that God is simply cruel. God so loved the world that He sent His only son Jesus who could offer the one sacrifice that provides the required atonement, expiation, and redemption that has “infinite” value.
Our sins make us deserving of death if we cannot provide atonement. God himself, out of love, provides the atonement and redemption. Is God cruel(?)…not in my view.
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Pax
Guest
You’ve got to be kidding. Try looking at national sovereignty. Does our country with its government exercise national sovereignty? Of course it does and this sovereignty is over you and me. We, nevertheless, still exercise free will. Same thing goes with God and His sovereignty over creation. We still have free will.
Back to your openers in this post. Please be advised that I know you don’t believe in God and that you do not believe that anyone has proved to you that God exists. I get that and I am not trying to provide proof to you at this point in my discussions with you. What I have been trying very hard to do in my musings is to remove obstacles that are due to your misunderstandings of scripture, the nature and definition of God as we understand it, and the myriad of other things that you erroneously assume or believe and then attempt to use to dismiss the idea of God’s existence.
I am arguing against your errors in logic and understandings of Christianity. Your errors are obstacles in the discussion. I have conversed with atheists that have a good grasp of Christianity and scripture. They argue much differently. They do not attempt to use erroneous understandings of scripture or misunderstandings of Christian teaching to argue against the existence of God.
Your argument about sovereignty vs free will is a case in point. Hopefully, I have just showed you that sovereignty doesn’t eliminate free will.
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caille
Guest
633 posts on this thread, and I have a headache of monumental proportions.
I was raised in a church and never questioned why or what I believed until I was 25. Since then it’s been an up and down roller coaster ride, mostly caused by the behavior of those around me who considered themselves “Christian.”
As the granddaughter of a minister, I hate to say this, but the agnostics and atheists I’ve known have often seemed far more thoughtful, loving, and caring than many of the “Christians” who went to church every Sunday (making sure everyone around them knew it) and did just as they (bleep)-well wanted the rest of the time.
I’m also having a hard time with the God of the Old Testament. Change the names of those involved and don’t mention where the story came from, and most people would not approve of a supreme being who ordered his followers to do some of the things that are done in those books.
These are things that, for me, don’t exactly match the loving, caring God and His people my grandfather used to tell me stories about. And with these experiences, atheism or agnosticism can seem very attractive.
Caille
I was raised in a church and never questioned why or what I believed until I was 25. Since then it’s been an up and down roller coaster ride, mostly caused by the behavior of those around me who considered themselves “Christian.”
As the granddaughter of a minister, I hate to say this, but the agnostics and atheists I’ve known have often seemed far more thoughtful, loving, and caring than many of the “Christians” who went to church every Sunday (making sure everyone around them knew it) and did just as they (bleep)-well wanted the rest of the time.
I’m also having a hard time with the God of the Old Testament. Change the names of those involved and don’t mention where the story came from, and most people would not approve of a supreme being who ordered his followers to do some of the things that are done in those books.
These are things that, for me, don’t exactly match the loving, caring God and His people my grandfather used to tell me stories about. And with these experiences, atheism or agnosticism can seem very attractive.
Caille
A
_A
Guest
With such a string of personal attacks, the only thing I can say is that we are not having much success communicating.
I don’t think I need to respond to these kind of attacks either.
T
Tracyms1974
Guest
This is a good opportunity to talk about Jesus. Jesus was a Man who was half human and half divine. His human half came from his Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and His Divine half came from God the Father (the one most of us have been talking about.)
I feel that Jesus came to Earth for two reasons: To teach us how to treat each other and to save us from our sins. His “Greatest Commandment” goes like this: “You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart, mind, soul, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself.” He knew that in loving God, all else would come to us much easier - even the Love of neighbor.
Jesus worked tirelessly to educate the masses on the kingdom of God. He performed miracles to help people believe in Him and what He was saying. And when the time came, He died on the Cross for our sins and rose three days later on what we now call Easter Sunday.
Even though He did all this for us lowly human beings, He never demanded worship or homage from anyone. He still doesn’t demand it today, although He does ask us nicely. And even then, the worship and homage would be for OUR good, not His. The only benefit Jesus would receive is the knowledge that yet another has joined His holy flock, and He hopes eternally that he/she will stay until death - and beyond.
Jesus is well aware that we all have free will, but it doesn’t keep Him from wishing that we would use that will to serve Him and His people.
Tracy
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notself
Guest
Caille,
I understand exactly where you are coming from, but for every hypocritical Christian (or fill in the any other religion), I have found people of compassion and dedication. I don’t understand their beliefs, but they don’t understand mine.
I have the same problem with the OT that you have. Most agnostics and atheists that I know left Christianity after studying the Bible (particularly the OT). Much of the OT is not fit to read to children and some of it is not fit to read in mixed company.
My sister (one of the most compassionate Catholics that I know) decided to start reading the Bible and had to stop. It upset her. I have read somewhere that most Christians have not read the Bible. (Perhaps it was on this board) It probably is just as well.
I understand exactly where you are coming from, but for every hypocritical Christian (or fill in the any other religion), I have found people of compassion and dedication. I don’t understand their beliefs, but they don’t understand mine.
I have the same problem with the OT that you have. Most agnostics and atheists that I know left Christianity after studying the Bible (particularly the OT). Much of the OT is not fit to read to children and some of it is not fit to read in mixed company.
My sister (one of the most compassionate Catholics that I know) decided to start reading the Bible and had to stop. It upset her. I have read somewhere that most Christians have not read the Bible. (Perhaps it was on this board) It probably is just as well.
A
_A
Guest
I guess what I am trying to say is that this ‘god’ of yours has no sovereignty over me.
You can believe what you want to, but don’t expect for me to be accepting of these terrible stories as descriptions of a loving god. They are not. You keep complaining that I am not deciding the matter by Yahweh’s standards. That is correct. I have no evidence that Yahweh is real, but you know that. You still keep expecting me to accord him special consideration because you have a different interpretation of the bible. You wont give any reason why my interpretation is less valid than yours, but we are both reading (roughly) the same translation and version of the bible. You are drawing different conclusions based on your personal interpretation.
Forgive me for being blunt, but why should I trust you?
On a matter of this importance, why should I trust a 2000 year old organization that might be wrong? Why trust a bible over the koran…or the torah?
A
_A
Guest
Welcome. I can’t believe someone read the WHOLE THING ! I know there are a few of us who have been here most of the forty-something pages, but that’s different. WOW! Thanks.
A
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I know what you mean. I wouldn’t say that it was fit for children to read. Too much violence etc.
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Pax
Guest
I am not expecting special consideration based upon my interpretation of the bible. I am instead asking you to reconcile an issue that you have thus far been unable to tackle head on. The only consideration that I hope for is that you look at the concept of a supreme being as just that. My recent posts haven’t even involved interpretations of scripture. Instead, they have involved the concept of sovereignty as it logically applies to the concept of a supreme being.
You should trust the 2000 year old organization that Christ established as his church because of Jesus and His promises to his Church. The fact that the Church still exists is a miracle in our midst. Jesus is the source and Jesus is the proof. I know you reject him in terms of his divinity, but I think that the proof is in him, in his teachings, and in his miracles, and especially the resurrection. I also realize that you reject all of these things. These are things that cause me to believe. Likewise, it is Jesus that causes me to reject the Koran. I do not reject the Torah…it forms the first five books of the Christian Bible.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I believe my comments might have been blunt to the point of being rude. I hope you will accept my apology A.
What i should have said was that modern historians have considered that Alexander met with Jewish religious leaders but dismissed the idea as a myth created by Jewish people living in Alexandria, Egypt 200 years after the general’s death. Your idea is possible, but highly unlikely. Before i could accept it as probable, you would have to provide some historical or archaeological evidence to support it. You are an intelligent and reasonable person, so i think you can understand that this is a reasonable request.
Do you have any other reason for rejecting the idea that Ezekiel’s words in chapter 26 did not accurately predict the future?
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Phooney:
I’m not sure if i missed your last post or you have not had a chance to reply to mine. (Please click the above link if you are interested and have the time.)
A
_A
Guest
My point is, there is no being who rules over humans - humans are free, if they choose to be.
That the church exists is not a miracle. The various churches have maintained their existence by brute force.
Of course, brutish force is the way most miracles look to me.
Like when one pious person survives a disaster, calling it a miracle.
I look at the numerous deaths and think - yup, miracle.
I won’t be agreeing with you that your god rules me. I wont agree that he rules you. I certainly wont agree that he is good, when his acts are clearly not.
A
_A
Guest
Quite. It was written long enough before Alexander that he would have likely found it with his research. Other answer - the ‘prophecy’ was written after the event.
Most likely it was Alexander researching his target that covers it. That is the most likely answer, anyway. Thinking that magic happened that ONE TIME is much less likely.
Don’t forget - I don’t believe in extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence.
- Status