I am an atheist

[_A]

You have frequently mentioned Zeus and other Greek gods and even introduced the Spaghetti Monster into the discussion. You seem to think that belief in any of these is the equivalent to believing in the God of Christianity. The only commonality that exists here is your lack of belief in any god whatsoever. There are no commonalities between false gods and the one true God.

Here is something clear enough to see. How do you know that you have chosen the ‘one true god’? There is simply no evidence so far that I have seen.

Greek mythology is a great example.

As does christianity.

The Greek gods all had human characteristics and frailties.

I know ! One of them was noted as saying, ‘I am a jealous god’ or something like that. Saying that makes it sound like there are several gods. How strange!

They took cheap shots at each other and were subject to the petty jealousies of human beings. They were really human beings elevated to the status of a deity.

I wonder if any of them ever destroyed the whole world, except for a select few…that would be pretty shocking.

The one true God is not understood to be anything like the Greek myths and is clearly not an object/idol designed by man and made with human hands.

The crucifix with the morbid image on it is something designed by man and made with human hands. Is it an idol? Am I missing something here?

The one true God is beyond all of that and He is eminently more believable because he is not like his creatures.

The one true god eh? Ok, show me your evidence which shows clearly that Yahweh is a real one god of everything and Budda is not. Better rule out all the others, too.

I really have to make it clear here - there is nothing I have seen which makes one faith more likely than any other to be true.

You are clearly right about one thing. No one will convince you that God exists. It will be God’s grace that will provide you with faith and understanding. Faith is an interesting phenomenon. It is its own evidence. It is a knowing that is quite real and powerful even though it does not depend upon the kind of empirical evidence that you demand. The physical evidence of the universe is sufficient empirical data, but you have indicated that you really don’t care about considering its origins.

It’s origins have never been important to me. You claim that anyone can have evidence - why can’t I? I will not fake faith - it would be too important. If your church were right about everything, then my pretending belief would be blasphemy, wouldn’t it? I wont lie about it.

Could it be that your own position may be holding you back in the same way that you think that believing newtonian mechanics will hold you back from learning einstinean mechanics? We all need open minds and hearts. The truth exists and God wants you to have the gift of faith so that you can know the truth.

If you are correct about this Yahweh character, he made me skeptical and inquisitive. Following that is the right thing to do for me.

 

[_A]

Those are indeed reasonable expectations. There is, however, a certainty in life. That certainty is death. At the time of death you have a fifty/fifty chance of being right about the existence of God and life after death. There is a reasonable expectation that you are wrong about the existence of God.

Pascals wager? I would rather not ‘hedge’, thank you. If I don’t believe, it is not worth pretending. I would not want to blaspheme my way into the catholic faith.

 

[_A]

At the time of death you have a fifty/fifty chance of being right about the existence of God and life after death.

Just how did you perform the statistical analysis which gave you the fifty/fifty odds? Can I have a look at the data?

 

[dolphinlove]

Catch any fish this weekend?

 

[Pax]

Just how did you perform the statistical analysis which gave you the fifty/fifty odds? Can I have a look at the data?

This is indeed Pascal’ wager. You are either right or wrong and you will find out when you die if God does or does not exist. Why is the math so difficult?

And how is it that Pascal’s wager becomes a blasphemy if it serves to make you think about the possibilities as they really are? I am not suggesting that you take the wager as some sort of hedge. The wager merely puts things into perspective. You still need faith.

 

[Pax]

Here is something clear enough to see. How do you know that you have chosen the ‘one true god’? There is simply no evidence so far that I have seen.

…
…

Jesus is a historical figure.

Jesus is the evidence.

Jesus is exactly who he said he was or he was a mad man.

Jesus demonstrated that what he said was true through his miracles. Most importantly, Jesus rose from the dead.

There is an abundance of eyewitness testimony concerning Jesus, his claims, his miracles, and his rising from the dead. You have probably dismissed this eyewitness testimony and will not accept it as evidence, but it is the truth and it is data that should help you.

Bhuda never worked miracles and Bhuda never claimed that he was God. Bhuda never claimed that he could save us from our sins. Bhuda never rose from the dead. Likewise, Mohammed didn’t perform miracles and he never claimed to be God or that he could redeem us.

I’ll take Jesus in a heart beat based on the claims and the evidence surrounding each.

 

[edgarddb]

To Atheist,
Here I am again trying to bring my two bits to the mix.
PASCALS WAGER: I rather try to live my life, justly, as if there is a God and then, when I die, if there is no God, I only lost my life; However if I lived my live wantonly, as if there is no God, and then died finding out there is a God, I WOULD BE LOSING ETERNAL LIFE.
Now Jesus did manifest his existense several times in my long life. The most recent: I serve as an"Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist I help with the distribution of the Eucharist or the consecrated Wine at Mass) Last Chrismas: (don’t cringe ) at the Midnight Mass we had the usual overflow of the"Holiday catholics"( I cringe seeing and knowing much) There are usualy at least 8 distribution stations spread in front and back of the Chapel.
After Communion we return to the “BLESSED SACRAMENT CHAPEL”(in the back of the main Chapel) to place the left over “CONSECRETED HOST” in “THE TABERNACLE”(Where we reserve always a PRESENSE of the Consecrated HOSTS)while others consume the Extra Cosecrated Wine) I placed my Ciborium (A flat gold or plated vessel with a lid) on top of another one that was already inside the TABERNACLE. I kneeled reverently and started to lock the Tabernacle when suddenly I heard some kind of moaning like someone was in distress. I froze and looked around, then heard it again, stronger. Then my eyes were drawn to the interior of the Tabernacle and then I ALMOST FREEKED OUT AS SAW A HALF MOON HOST CAUGHT BY THE LID OF THE CIBORIUM under the one I had topped.
I removed my Ciborium, opened the lid and reverently smoothed out the Host and placed it back. I kept quit about this for a long time:blush: , but a priest confessor urged me to share this at appropriate times.
For those that believe NO MIRACLES ARE NEEDED. for those that choose not to believe all the Miracles in the world are in vain
EDGARDDB

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks

 

[zerinus]

This is plainly false. You keep saying atheism is several things that it isn’t. If it is a religion, where is the dogma? Where do we atheists hold our meetings? How are we organized?

A religion does not need to have those things to be a religion. Have you heard of Confucianism? It is a Chinese religion based on the teachings of Confucius. It has no God, no rituals, and nothing about the afterlife. It is merely a philosophy of how to lead a good, honest, prosperous life here on earth. Religion is a frame of mind, it is a way of thought (and life). It does not need churches, temples, rituals sacraments, even a God! It is a system of belief. That is it.

Atheism is simply the opposite of theism. Theism means a belief in a god (like Zuess, Yahweh or Allah). A-theism simply means a lack of such a belief.

a•the•ist /ˈeɪθiɪst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ey-thee-ist] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

See - denial or disbelief are covered here.
If you want to argue with yourself and imaginary opponents go ahead. If, however you are trying to engage in reasonable argument with myself, then don’t speak for me, I am capable of doing it myself.

My good friend, you can protest as much as you like; but if you think that you have freed yourself from the fetters of “religion” by adopting atheism, you are very much mistaken. Atheism is an expression of belief, just as theism is. It is a religion, pure and simple. It registers at the other extreme in the spectrum of human thought in the causation of things.

Atheism is an expression of belief. It is not just a lack of belief. It is impossible for anyone to know that there isn’t a God. Therefore your expression of atheism is as much an expression of belief as theism is.

An atheist is someone who declares that there is no God. He is not someone who says, “I don’t have any evidence to believe in God, therefore I am reserving judgment until I know better”. He makes a statement that God does not exist. That is a statement of belief, just as its opposite is. You are merely closing your eyes to the truth and burying your head in the sand by thinking otherwise. Lack of evidence for something is not the same as evidence against it. A belief in something without evidence is religious expression, which is what Atheism is.

I lack a belief in gods. Without that belief, I am told, I can’t have a belief in Yahweh. Thats OK with me. I have read up a little on him, and learned quite a bit in school. Not my cup of tea, and I still have no reason to believe that the bible is any more than a collection of old stories. I had Yahweh offered to me, I declined.

You seem to be hung up about “Yahweh,” and you talk about Yahweh and God as thought they were two different people. I don’t know what you are saying here. You seem to have had an experience that you are not describing very well.

I don’t believe. If you can’t imagine such a position, believe me when I tell you it changes a persons outlook on many things.

You “don’t believe,” and yet declare your “unbelief” as a belief. That is religion.

How do you know if you have chosen the right recipe? If the simple accident of birth will condemn every muslim or christian ever born to eternal torment, that is simply not fair.

Those are your ideas of religion, not mine. An accident of birth does not make anyone “religious”. I know I have chosen the right recipe because I have had a personal experience of God, not because of birth or tradition.

Well, I don’t believe because of the overwhelming lack of evidence. Am I expected to suspend my critical faculties and just believe in a being such as Yahweh? If you suggest that the Yahweh hypothesis is correct, I would ‘examine, test and try’ it. I have already found huge parts of the bible and catholocism which disagree with my morals and ethics, so why accept it? It has not passed my tests.
I am not condemning those who have chosen belief, but consider for a moment that you would imagine me being condemned for all eternity for not believing what a certain group of men said about a certain book.

I don’t know what you are talking about here. Those may be your ideas of religion, but not mine.

zerinus

 

[bogoljub]

I am going to have another go at describing it…
I don’t believe in the existence of the christian god.
I don’t believe in the existence of god.
I don’t believe that there is no god.
I don’t believe in god.
I don’t believe.

That last line says ‘I am an atheist’ most clearly, I think, but all are consistent with atheism.

I also don’t believe in quantum mechanics, astrology or the theory of gravity.

I will weigh evidence, and decide how to proceed case-by-case.

I think believing in things causes intellectual blindness.

Belief gets in the way of learning, more often than not.

God bless!

So I try for the last time - I hope open your mind and try to understand what I want to tell u ?

I can not add much because zerinus post such good posts that it would be better to be silent and and read .

Again I tell you, you are a believer if you want it or not ! You believe in a faith wich tells u that there is no God - that’s a fact !

You have not answered if you have an evidence that there is no God ?

I have told you we do not have a blind faith we have many prooves and evidences of the truth of our faith.

I have told you that, when we say I believe in one God we do not mean really to believe - we whant to say I know - I confess - I am sure – we do not have blind faith in a fairy tale - that’s perhaps your mis concept of our faith.

When you answer my question if you want to discover God and will accept him than we can go on and I will show you our evidences and prooves but before you tell me that will it would be nonsense to tell u.

In CHRIST

 

[bogoljub]

God bless!

So I try for the last time - I hope you open your mind and try to understand what I want to tell u ?

I can not add much, because zerinus post such good posts that it would be better to be silent and read.

Again I tell you, you are a believer if you want it or not ! You believe in a faith wich tells u that there is no God - that’s a fact !

You have not answered if you have an evidence that there is no God ?

I have told you we do not have a blind faith we have many prooves and evidences of the truth of our faith.

I have told you that, when we say I believe in one God we do not mean really to believe ( it could be) - we want to say I know - I confess - I am sure – we do not have blind faith in a fairy tale - that’s perhaps your mis -concept of faith.

When you answer my question, if you want to discover God and will accept him, than we can go on and I will show you our evidences and prooves but before you will accept it would be nonsense to tell u because you would deny God with the evidences of his Existence.

In CHRIST

 

[bogoljub]

God bless !

From a Dialog between and Holy Elder and an Atheist:

Geron:
That’s the way things are, my child. Atheists do not exist. Only idolaters exist, who take down Christ from His throne and in His place they enthrone their own idols. We say: “Glory be to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. They say: “Glory to the great Mao”. **You pick and choose which one you prefer. **

Atheist:
You also choose your drug, grandpa. The only difference is, that you call it Christ, others call it Allah, or Buddha, etc. etc…

Geron:
My child, Christ is not a drug. Christ is the Creator of the entire universe. He is the one Who governs everything wisely, from the multitudes of infinite galaxies, down to the minutest particles of the microcosm. He has given life to all of us. He is the One Who brought you into this world and has bestowed you with so much freedom, that you can actually doubt Him, and even deny Him.

Atheist:
Grandpa, its your right to believe in all of those things. But that doesn’t mean they are true. Do you have any proofs?

Geron:
You think all of this is just a fairy tale, don’t you?

Atheist:
Naturally.

Geron:
Do you have any proof that it is a fairy tale? Can you prove that what I believe is false?

Atheist:
………………

Geron:
You didn’t reply,** because you don’t have any proof either. Which means, you believe they are fairy tales. ** I spoke to you of believing, when I referred to God; you, however, although rejecting my belief, **essentially believe in your faithlessness, since you cannot back it up with proofs either. **However, I must tell you that my belief is **not something “out of the blue”; There are certain supernatural events, upon which it is founded. **

Atheist:
Just a minute! Since we are talking about believing, what would you say to Muslims or Buddhists for example? Because they also talk about believing. And they too have high moral standards. Why is your belief better than theirs?

Geron:
So! The criterion of the truth is supposedly judged by this question of yours? ** Because the truth is most certainly one; truths cannot be many in number. The thing is, who is the possessor of the truth?** That is the major question.** Hence, it is not a matter of a better or worse belief! It is a matter of the only true belief!**
I agree, that other beliefs also have moral teachings. Naturally, Christianity’s moral teachings are incomparably superior. But, we do not believe in Christ because of His moral teachings. Or for His prompting to “Love one another”, or for His sermons on peace and justice, freedom and equality. We believe in Christ, because His presence on earth was accompanied by supernatural events, which was a sign that He is God.

Atheist:
Look, I also admit that Christ was an important philosopher and a great revolutionary, but let’s not make Him a God now……

the full text :

oodegr.com/english/atheismos/gerwn1.htm

 

[bogoljub]

God bless !

The difference between Atheism and Agnosticism

Most of these people characterize themselves as “godless”. But, only few of them have comprehended the significance of this expression, or the logical contradictions that are prerequisites of its acceptance.

Who exactly should be called “godless”? The person who **BELIEVES THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST. **But, this phrasing alone makes it obvious that atheism presupposes a faith in the non-existence of God. This is not a play on words here. When we analyze the subject further down, it will become obvious that it is exactly as we said above.

Many atheists claim: “I don’t believe in God, because I have no evidence of this.” But when you ask them: “What evidence do you have of the opposite?” they can only present their hypotheses, without a shred of actual evidence. Thus, their atheist position is not the result of any evidence, but simply their CHOICE between two, improvable aspects: the existence and the non-existence of God.
On realizing this impasse, and in their attempt to avoid this logical contradiction, some of them say: “I am not rejecting the existence of God; I simply don’t have a piece of evidence that will make me believe in God”.

These people are consistent in what thy say. The only thing is, THEY ARE NOT CALLED ATHEISTS; THEY ARE CALLED AGNOSTICS. An Atheist is the one who rejects the existence of God. An Agnostic is the one who is open to the possibility of God existing, but has not yet been convinced of it. So, in this series of topics, we shall be dealing with the Atheists, and not the Agnostics, who are more logical.

And I am referring to the true Agnostics; the ones who can recognize the above difference. Because there are also those who claim to be open to the possibility of God’s existence, but declare themselves to be “atheists”, thus indicating that they have basically taken a stance, hence their claim of being open to the possibility of God’s existence is only a cover-up, to conceal their contradiction. But they are easily detected, by their open hatred towards anything that has to do with God. The fact alone that they claim to be open to the possibility of God’s existence, shows that: either they are not true atheists, but are suffering from a total confusion of meanings, or, they are actually atheists, who are trying to conceal their fanaticism behind the cover of agnosticism.

It is therefore important –in any conversation with atheists- to clarify exactly what they mean, and what their affiliation is to Agnosticism.

**So, from the moment someone says: “I am an atheist”, he is actually declaring his faith in an unproven statement that: “God doesn’t exist”. **

And it is so improvable, as is the acknowledgement that “God exists”. Hence, atheism is not aligned with rationalism and logic. It is simply one more religion.

In CHRIST

 

[edgarddb]

My last post to ATHEIST
i believe I GAVE YOU SOME GOOD ARGUMENTS IN MY PREVIOUS POST, You ignored them. You keep harping on the same lines. You BELIEVE there is no GOD, and you like to drag as many down with you as you can.
I think I have you pegged , You are either a plant from the leaders to keep us on our toes, or the instument of the devil to keep us from addressing folks in need of genuine counsel or inspiration.
GUYS WE ARE WASTING OUR AND GODS TIME.
edgarddb

 

[Valke2]

We should keep the focus on this debate on attacks on the person and his or her motives. This is the best way to enrich our intellectual and spiritual lives.

 

[_A]

Catch any fish this weekend?

I haven’t. I went for a small walk on the big lake yesterday, but the ice is new and I am a big chicken. I usually wait for half a meter or so of ice before I go spend a lot of time on it. There is currently only 10cm of ice. I don’t often ice-fish anyway…more of a fairweather fisherman, I guess…

 

[_A]

This is indeed Pascal’ wager. You are either right or wrong and you will find out when you die if God does or does not exist. Why is the math so difficult?

And how is it that Pascal’s wager becomes a blasphemy if it serves to make you think about the possibilities as they really are? I am not suggesting that you take the wager as some sort of hedge. The wager merely puts things into perspective. You still need faith.

If this god of yours values belief without evidence over use of critical faculties, then it is right to believe without evidence. I think if you fake it, your god will be unhappy that you faked. If you have a genuine belief, OK, but as I say, faking a belief would be blasphemy.
Also, I take Pascals wager the other way. What if there was no god, no afterlife and no soul? In that case, many of the faithful have wasted their lives chasing one religion or another, only to never find out they were wrong - because they are dead.
Picture this - everyone drops all religions and decides, case by case, what is the best course of action. I think we would have a much better world if that were the case. We both know that most religions teach love (or say they do), but when you feed someone dogma, they are less likely to think about some issues. A good example is that the catholic church has a firm stand against abortion. The same church has a firm stand against suicide, If a woman has a tubal pregnancy, her doctor will tell her “have a D& C (abortion) or you and the fetus will die”. A dogma-driven woman might say that, since abortion is wrong, she cannot do it. A woman thinking for herself (without dogma) might have the procedure, go on to have a few more healthy kids and a good life.
Also, if the woman chooses to **not **have her doctor address the tubal pregnancy, it would surely be suicide, which most everyone thinks is wrong.
I hope I explained it properly, but basically what I am saying is that I trust *persons *to make the best decisions that they can, while *dogma *often leads to needless harm and grief.

 

[_A]

I’ll take Jesus in a heart beat based on the claims and the evidence surrounding each.

There is no evidence for miracles. None. You have believed the stories in a book because people told you they were true. If there were testable ( most importantly falsifiable ) claims being made, one could test them and get their own answers.
Mohommad rode a winged horse. Is that not a miracle?
I think the Jesus story makes it worse for me. In the story, Yahweh decided to impregnate a young virgin woman (this could easily have caused her to be stoned to death at that time/place). When the child was born, it was also Yahweh, but with a different name.
Now years later, that ‘Jesus’ (who is really Yahweh) has a story. Some men come and torture and kill him. After a few days, it is clear that the killers (did Yahweh make them kill Jesus? I think it is implied) failed. Jesus didn’t die (of course he couldn’'t - he was a god to begin with). So Yahweh pretended to have himself killed in order to…um…I don’t know here…I think it was a PR thing, because all of Yahwehs killing and genocide were making him unpopular.
All of this makes no sense to me. Why would a god take a virgin? Why pretend to be killed, only to show later that he wasn’t killed?

Is this complex and impossible story more likely to be true, or more likely to be an invention of men who were trying to control other men?

 

[_A]

To Atheist,
Here I am again trying to bring my two bits to the mix.
PASCALS WAGER: I rather try to live my life, justly, as if there is a God and then, when I die, if there is no God, I only lost my life; However if I lived my live wantonly, as if there is no God, and then died finding out there is a God, I WOULD BE LOSING ETERNAL LIFE.
Now Jesus did manifest his existense several times in my long life. The most recent: I serve as an"Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist I help with the distribution of the Eucharist or the consecrated Wine at Mass) Last Chrismas: (don’t cringe ) at the Midnight Mass we had the usual overflow of the"Holiday catholics"( I cringe seeing and knowing much) There are usualy at least 8 distribution stations spread in front and back of the Chapel.
After Communion we return to the “BLESSED SACRAMENT CHAPEL”(in the back of the main Chapel) to place the left over “CONSECRETED HOST” in “THE TABERNACLE”(Where we reserve always a PRESENSE of the Consecrated HOSTS)while others consume the Extra Cosecrated Wine) I placed my Ciborium (A flat gold or plated vessel with a lid) on top of another one that was already inside the TABERNACLE. I kneeled reverently and started to lock the Tabernacle when suddenly I heard some kind of moaning like someone was in distress. I froze and looked around, then heard it again, stronger. Then my eyes were drawn to the interior of the Tabernacle and then I ALMOST FREEKED OUT AS SAW A HALF MOON HOST CAUGHT BY THE LID OF THE CIBORIUM under the one I had topped.
I removed my Ciborium, opened the lid and reverently smoothed out the Host and placed it back. I kept quit about this for a long time:blush: , but a priest confessor urged me to share this at appropriate times.
For those that believe NO MIRACLES ARE NEEDED. for those that choose not to believe all the Miracles in the world are in vain
EDGARDDB

I have also had a tough time wrapping my head around the cannibalism ritual. From what I hear, the chip of wafer actually becomes the real flesh of someone. WHY???
To say that is morbid is the understatement of the year!

 

[_A]

Zerinus, you constantly insult me by saying that I ‘believe’. Stop telling me what I think or I will simply stop answering you. If you want to know if I believe something, ask me. I am right here and have been willing to answer all along.

You say I have a belief, I do not.

If you want me to believe something, present enough evidence, and I will likely beleive.

Stop telling me what I think, though. It is offensive and misleading. I will speak for myself.