I am an out gay man. Ask me anything.

[Exalt]

Exalt
**

• It became more and more apparent that appeals to reason were not effective ways to evangelize young people. But over the course of the couple years I worked on youth ministry, I concluded that it wasn’t because there was anything wrong with those kids – it was rather because Christianity’s case is very difficult to prove rationally. If you’ve ever tried to explain Christianity to someone who has never heard of it before, you’ll understand what I mean.
• The persuasion that we did engage in was primarily emotional. We were encouraged to engage in ‘relational’ ministry, for example. It’s the technique of building up a personal relationship with kids over the course of your time with them. You build up trust, a sense of group identity, and then you ask them for some kind of religious commitment. No appeals to reason, no debates, no rational exploration of ideas. I started to get involved with the more charismatic branch of Catholic youth ministry, and was pretty disturbed by the speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, etc. The low point of that was when we had an ambulance on standby to help deal with the kids who had passed out during a charismatic adoration session at a Stuebenville conference.
• Some of the hypocrisy I observed in my tenure as a youth volunteer really bothered me. Another one of my fellow college youth ministers was engaging in a secret relationship with one of his high school teens (legal, but against the rules of the youth group). Heck, I was a hypocrite, and that bothered me. I preached against masturbation but personally struggled with it, and suspected that almost everyone else did. **

Nothing you have said here persuades me that you ever had a real handle on the inadequacies of the Christian religion. All that I am persuaded of by this anecdotal info is that you were suffering from a recognition of your own inadequacies and the inadequacies of others. At the proud age of 20 you dismissed as inadequate what Christ did to save you.

In post 68, I said:

I lost my faith for a few different reasons. The primary reason, though, was that I came to a realization that the evidence for Christianity was not adequate for believing in it. Other important factors: I did indeed struggle with my sexuality. I also was made very uncomfortable by some of things that went on in the Catholic youth ministry scene. Much of what I studied in the Bible made me very uncomfortable, too.

My issues with the youth ministry scene was just one of a number of issues I had with Christianity, and it wasn’t the most important one.

**

My life is indeed ordered, balanced, and totally in line with what is healthy. I experience joy that goes far beyond instantaneous pleasure or comfort

Now that you have left Christ behind and rejoice so much in your homosexuality, why are you here? Is guilt gnawing at you? Are you trying to make converts? There is yet something of the preacher in you; you find so much fault with this Christian flock. **

#1. I actually explained that in my original post.
#2. None, guilt is not an emotion I feel about my sexuality very often, if ever. I do feel guilt about other things, like when I don’t focus as much at work as I should.
#3. No, I have no interest in converting anyone here.

 

[Cristiano]

I did. I’m especially good at reading.

However, what he is posting contradicts any innocent ‘desire to dialogue,’ i.m.o.

I think that he is trying to dialogue with himself more than with us. I have the impression that he is not completely clear about some of his thoughts and he is using this thread more as a sounding board than a debate thread. Contradictions do not automatically exclude innocence, they are just evidence of some confusion. I personally think that he is being honest with us, he is not just a troll that signed up two days ago. He has been thinking about these things since 2004.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I think that he is trying to dialogue with himself more than with us.

Possibly.

 

[if_youCthispray]

Are you gay because you suffer from heterophobia?

 

[Edward_H]

My question is really what’s the actual purpose of a thread like this, other than to draw attention to oneself?

I mean…maybe I should start a thread. I am an enormously happy married male. Ask me anything.

Or I am an enormously content engineer (Marine reservist, father, catechist)…ask me anything.

I am enormously happy brother, son, neighbor.

Big deal.

Would these threads be useful, really?

I think there are plenty of posts along this current one, disproportionately many. IMO.

 

[dcana]

Hi, Exalt. I am glad you are here.

I am curious as to how you went from “struggling with unwanted same-sex attraction” to “embracing” your homosexuality and “accepting you for who you are,” etc, etc, if you would care to share. Did you join a support group made up of other people who told you that you should not “struggle” against these tendencies but instead “embrace” them? Did you make friends with another out gay man who helped you through this?

If you want to look at and address anything below, feel free. If not, that’s fine.

I struggle with a lot of things, too. Setting aside the issue of homosexuality, there are many, many indeed personality disorders, tendencies to act in uncharitable ways towards others, vices, and defects in personality common in mankind. Many of them have links to one’s genetic makeup, some are acquired over time, some are combinations of the two. I have them. You have them. We all have them. Some of us naturally have more of them than others, and in some of us they can be more seriously disruptive to our lives and/or the lives of others. Is there anyone who is excluded from possessing them? The question is, what do we do about it? I believe we need to fight against them, to actively try to overcome them, or to at least make improvement. It doesn’t matter if we were “born” with the tendency or not. It is, in fact, our responsibility to work to better ourselves, and this is a work of a lifetime.

Should we be encouraged in our bad behaviors because they are “part of who we are” or should we accept help and advice from others, whether they be friends, family members, physicians, or just reading books in order to improve ourselves? Does having such tendencies give us an excuse for behaving in negative ways towards others?

Now, obviously, I believe that homosexual tendencies are included in my rambling discussion above, and you do not. That’s perfectly clear. But who decides which things are things to be included and which things excluded? Is it the individual? What would you say to a person who has a tendency towards anger and violence towards others who accepts that that is just the way he is and nobody should try to persuade him otherwise? What if this person were involved in an act of violence against another, say in a bar fight, in which he seriously injured another person? Do we, as a society, accept as his excuse, “Sorry, but that’s just the way I am - I tend to lose it at times,” or do we not rather hold the person responsible for his actions, irrespective of any “excuse” he may give for them?

So, who decides? Yes, one might say in regards to homosexuality, that it doesn’t affect others in a negative way or even the person himself, if he “embraces” who he is and rejects other opinions that what he is doing is “sinful.” But, it can be argued that the homosexual lifestyle does, in fact, do harm to others and to the individuals themselves. If it is true that it does do harm to oneself and others then, according to your own definition, it is wrong because it “does not encourage happiness,” although I am not here asserting if that lifestyle does or does not have negative effects. And then, there is the question of the “morality” of the behavior. Suffice it to say, some believe that the Creator of persons, who is God, has a right, being the Creator of the creatures, to demand from them that they act in certain ways and not act in others. To those with no belief in God, they feel they are not bound by “other peoples’,” as they would say, “morality.”

 

[Edward_H]

I think that he is trying to dialogue with himself more than with us. I have the impression that he is not completely clear about some of his thoughts and he is using this thread more as a sounding board than a debate thread.

 

[Elizabeth502]

My question is really what’s the actual purpose of a thread like this, other than to draw attention to oneself?

I mean…maybe I should start a thread. I am an enormously happy married male. Ask me anything.

Or I am an enormously content engineer (Marine reservist, father, catechist)…ask me anything.

I am enormously happy brother, son, neighbor.

Big deal.

Would these threads be useful, really?

I think there are plenty of posts along this current one, disproportionately many. IMO.

Also true.

 

[John21652]

My question is really what’s the actual purpose of a thread like this, other than to draw attention to oneself?

I mean…maybe I should start a thread. I am an enormously happy married male. Ask me anything.

Or I am an enormously content engineer (Marine reservist, father, catechist)…ask me anything.

I am enormously happy brother, son, neighbor.

Big deal.

Would these threads be useful, really?

I think there are plenty of posts along this current one, disproportionately many. IMO.

Has the world come to this?

I mean, do we now need to draw attention to the fact that we are normal?

Maybe we do, because the abnormals sure like to draw attention to themselves.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Okay…9 posts have been deleted and one edited.

I expect every person posting on this thread to maintain the highest and most exemplary level of Christianity and discretion in this discussion.

The OP has gone out of his way to engage discussion with people he knows do not agree with his lifestyle choice…it’s a given and he has been very tolerant of a number of you to whom this seems to be a hot button issue.

I am giving you all…both sides of this issue…your first, last, and only warning to discuss the issues with mutual respect and Christian charity.

If anyone fails in this regard…you’ll be hearing from me.
God’s peace,

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Hello Exault, admire you for doing this.

This is what I want to ask - how do many homosexual men expect their sexuality and identity to be taken seriously when many “gay bars” are often very promiscuous in nature? And when many dress as women? I ask this because I have a gay friend who tells me that almost every gay bar he’s been to have lots of half-naked men. This same gay friend also wears make-up and long hair, and sometimes wants to look like a girl but considers it natural homosexual behaviour. Can you see how many people would point to that and think it was more of an “identity crisis” situation as opposed to “normal” homosexual behaviour? Why do many gay men like to dress as women anyway?

I know of course that “straight” men have strip clubs etc, but it seems to be the norm rather than the exception with homosexual men, it also appears very predatory and competitive/judging - gay men appear to be more critical of their’s/others appearance than the average “heterosexual!” person.

Finally, how do you feel about the homophobic/anti-gay attitude often displayed on this forum? A few I suppose will respond to this by saying that “Hey we’re not anti-gay! We’re just anti-sin!” But let’s be honest here guys, if I had a penny for every hateful post aimed at homosexuals on this forum I wouldn’t have to worry about my rent this year.

Both our rents for the year would probably be paid if that were the case.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Exalt

To be more specific, the claims that Christianity makes about the world struck me as extreme. The idea that an omnipotent supernatural being sent his son, who was also himself, to be murdered to atone for a rule that he made, and that his son was also raised from the dead, is a very extreme claim about the world. What kind of evidence exists to support that claim? A collection of manuscripts, the earliest of which can be traced back to a few decades after these things supposedly happened. It takes much more evidence to prove that someone so much as bumped your fender in today’s world, and for totally legitimate reasons.

If this is the best you can do as a refutation of Christianity, you really haven’t thought as much on the subject as you think you have. Apparently you have not only dismissed Christ, but also a God of any kind … all done at the super-brilliant age of 20?

 

[Edward_H]

I guess there are just so many uses for a forum.

I try to get some help here on spiritual matters, others doctrinal issues, etc.

Not all threads seem as a good fit; some are puzzling to me. but that’s just my passing by opinion.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

I have a question for Michael Francis if he is watching.

Atheist threads have been banned. Is it about time threads on Homosexuality were also banned?

After all, they have been done ad nauseam et ad infinitum.

 

[StevieD]

Question for you: Have you read this article by another homosexual? If not, I recommend it.

christianorder.com/features/features_2011/features_jan11.html

 

[Elizabeth502]

Elizabeth - your first post was questioning the man’s intentions and sincerity.

No, it wsn’t. It was replying in a valid way to some unanswered questions.

Have a nice day.

 

[Exalt]

Hello Exault, admire you for doing this.

No problem! Thanks a ton for your questions!

This is what I want to ask - how do many homosexual men expect their sexuality and identity to be taken seriously when many “gay bars” are often very promiscuous in nature?

Well, first of all, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with promiscuity per se. You can take a number of precautions to minimize the health risk, such that it isn’t a very serious concern. If you’re doing it out of some terrible emotional problem, or if you’re being irresponsible with the emotions of the person involved, then I’d have a problem with it. I don’t really understand the criticism.

All that being said, I think it’s mistaken to think of gay bars as ‘promiscuous in nature.’ I’ve been to every gay bar in Austin a number of times. The most promiscuous thing I’ve encountered is a couple kissing passionately, and men dancing with no shirt on. And thaaat’s about it. Really, most gay guys go to gay bars to dance, drink, talk, people watch, and just hang out with other gay people. Maybe if I see a cute guy, I’ll go talk to him and see where the conversation goes, but never is my aim to take him home with me that night and then forget his name the next day. From my conversations with my many other gay friends, my opinion on the matter is pretty standard.

Of course, cruising for hookups *does *happen. It’d be unfair of me not to say that. In my experience though, most gay men are mostly looking for relationships, not meaningless sex.

And when many dress as women?

Honestly, I think men in drag are hilarious, and they have waaaay more courage than I do. I haven’t seen it all that much in gay bars, but when I have, they usually sing, dance, or put on a little skit. It’s always fun, and I’ve really enjoyed it. I don’t really see the problem with it.

I ask this because I have a gay friend who tells me that almost every gay bar he’s been to have lots of half-naked men.

Most of the bars I visit feature fully-clothed clientele. Sometimes there are dancers with no shirts on, but I don’t really see the problem with that.

This same gay friend also wears make-up and long hair, and sometimes wants to look like a girl but considers it natural homosexual behaviour. Can you see how many people would point to that and think it was more of an “identity crisis” situation as opposed to “normal” homosexual behaviour? Why do many gay men like to dress as women anyway?

Huh. Interesting. Most of my gay friends are just normal people. They happen to also like men. Your friend’s experience sounds much different from mine.

I know of course that “straight” men have strip clubs etc, but it seems to be the norm rather than the exception with homosexual men, it also appears very predatory and competitive/judging - gay men appear to be more critical of their’s/others appearance than the average “heterosexual!” person.

Hmm. I don’t really know about that. That’s something I’ll have to think about. I do think about my appearance, of course. And my gay friends do tend to exercise more than my straight friends, but I’m not sure if that’s a bad thing. That being said, we aren’t *critical *with eachother, in my experience.

 

[Havard]

I am an openly gay man. Ask me anything.

How are you at predicting the future? I’m expecting my bar exam results tomorrow.

 

[Exalt]

Hi, Exalt. I am glad you are here.

I am curious as to how you went from “struggling with unwanted same-sex attraction” to “embracing” your homosexuality and “accepting you for who you are,” etc, etc, if you would care to share. Did you join a support group made up of other people who told you that you should not “struggle” against these tendencies but instead “embrace” them? Did you make friends with another out gay man who helped you through this?

I’d be happy to talk about this! Perhaps a timeline would help?

• Age 19. January-May 2006, past serious doubts about Catholicism transform into very, very serious criticisms. By the end of May, I realized that I couldn’t call myself an orthodox Catholic anymore. I continued to go to mass, though.
• Age 20. June 2006, I first told a friend of mine who I was sure would be against it. But to my surprise, he was totally okay with it.
• Age 20. August 2006, I told my roommate. He turned out to be totally okay with it too, and ended up being my rock for the next couple of years. Then, I told my sister. I also went to mass for the last time, and stopped calling myself Catholic.
• Age 20. September 2006, I put it on Facebook, told my youth minister that I wouldn’t be volunteering any more. My best friend at the time told me she would never speak to me again. Most of my friends at the time were from my parish, and we understandably went in different directions.
• Age 20. November 2006, my parents found out. They decided I needed to start counseling with a priest and would hold off on college money until I did. I told them that they couldn’t force me to talk to a priest, and that I’d find a way to support myself. My roommate’s family helped keep me fed as I looked for a job, and I got some additional financial support from my university. I also started building some new friendships, including, yes, an out gay couple my age.
• Age 20. January 2007, my parents and I began to reconcile. We went on vacation together, found some common ground, and I finally called up a priest to have a counseling session. But when I told him that my parents were holding financial support ransom, he was pretty upset. My parents dropped the whole thing. I also did get a job as a TA on my own. Those friendships that I’d started last year were blossoming now, and forming something of a support group.
• Age 21. June 2007, a full year after I first started to come out. I’d finally established some great friendships again that last to this day, and had survived the crisis that was coming out. My parents and I were back on track, too.

There were some ups and downs in the year afterward, but my roommate and his family, my parents, and my newfound friends were all there to help me during that time in my life. There were indeed people who told me that my feelings were wrong (like my parents and my church friends), but I was unconvinced by their arguments (as I’d had them all myself in the months prior).

Does that answer your question?

 

[Exalt]

How are you at predicting the future? I’m expecting my bar exam results tomorrow.

Terrible, sadly.

Err, I mean I’m terrible at predicting the future! I’m always firmly grounded in reality, and alas I lack clairvoyance.