I am bothered by why some Baptists...

[ahimsaman72]

Catholic4aReasn:

Truth is absolute, not relative. God is real, absolutely, even for atheists who sincerely believe He’s a myth. Truth is truth even if no one believes it. It has nothing in the world to do with following political leaders or believing every word that comes from the mouths of popes and bishops. Those are red herrings.

In Christ,
Nancy

Oh, truth is ABSOLUTE? Okay. Is it absolutely true that the color of the sunlight is yellow? When we see it it may appear that way right now. But, at other times it is orange or even reddish. Does a rainbow absolutely exist? Not really. It’s a combination of reflections of light.

God is absolute. I agree. Our understanding of God is not absolute. How can the relative (mortal) creature truly understand the absolute (immortal)?

Don’t you think there are two truths in the world - absolute and relative (conventional)? There’s one thing that is absolute - God. All our language and ideas are conventional truths simply pointing to Him (who is the absolute truth). Language and ideas are relative expedients. They simply lead us to the absolute.

Peace…

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

ahimsaman72:

Well, I explained the example of the complete Old Testament treatment of salvation. They were saved “without the shed blood of Christ”. Their animal sacrifices atoned for their sins till the Lamb was slain and atoned eternally for their sins. Are the OT believers damned because they knew nothing of Christ? No, they had faith in God. They had faith in the promise of a coming Savior.

But babies today are under grace, not under the law, and they can’t have faith so your example doesn’t really apply here.

I admit that using two different terms may cause confusion to the belief. However, as I already said, there is no explicit Scriptural proofs to back up this belief. There are implications - as John MacArthur points out in his article.

There are no explicit passages bearing the belief of the Trinity either. You have to piece together verses to come up with the whole. It’s the same here. Not everything is black and white.

True, not everything is black and white. Who then, has the God-given authority to decide which is right when such disputes arise?

If my understanding is correct, apparitions of Holy Mother Mary are not binding on the Catholic faith. It’s left up to the individual to decide to believe or not because there’s no explicit proof either way.

Give prots the same liberty in their beliefs. That’s reasonable to expect.

…

Marian apparitions are a matter of private revelation, that’s why they are not binding on Catholics. Salvation, on the other hand, is a matter of public revelation, binding on all Christians for all time. You’re comparing apples and oranges.

If “liberty in their beliefs” means considering ALL beliefs equally valid and true then that’s not reasonable at all. Two opposing ideas cannot both be true at the same time.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[ahimsaman72]

Catholic4aReasn:

It has nothing in the world to do with following political leaders or believing every word that comes from the mouths of popes and bishops. Those are red herrings.

In Christ,
Nancy

No red herrings here. It has everything to do with the topic. We were speaking of a belief. I proposed the belief and claimed individual liberty to believe it without outside influence. This is opposed to the idea of a corporate entity (outside influence) deciding the appropriate belief for the individual. So, it’s individual liberty versus corporate mandated beliefs. That’s no red herring.

That becomes the base issue when dealing with protestantism and Catholicism (which is where this debate is going). Because that’s where the trail leads as always. I’m just getting there first and exposing the intention. For most Catholics it boils down to authority - authority, authority, authority. For protestants it comes down to liberty and reason with authority coming in a measly third.

Peace…

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

ahimsaman72:

Oh, truth is ABSOLUTE? Okay. Is it absolutely true that the color of the sunlight is yellow? When we see it it may appear that way right now. But, at other times it is orange or even reddish. Does a rainbow absolutely exist? Not really. It’s a combination of reflections of light.

God is absolute. I agree. Our understanding of God is not absolute. How can the relative (mortal) creature truly understand the absolute (immortal)?

Don’t you think there are two truths in the world - absolute and relative (conventional)? There’s one thing that is absolute - God. All our language and ideas are conventional truths simply pointing to Him (who is the absolute truth). Language and ideas are relative expedients. They simply lead us to the absolute.

Peace…

Yes, there ARE truths that are absolute. God absolutely exists, even for people who don’t believe he does. Heaven and hell are absolute truths, even for those who don’t believe they exist. God is absolutely a triune God, even for Unitarians who don’t believe he is.

Absolute truths DO exist, even for relativists who don’t believe they do.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[ahimsaman72]

Catholic4aReasn:

But babies today are under grace, not under the law, and they can’t have faith so your example doesn’t really apply here.

That’s a false dichotomy. Law and grace are only methods that God uses to “save” people.

True, not everything is black and white. Who then, has the God-given authority to decide which is right when such disputes arise?

why, the individual of course - who else?

Marian apparitions are a matter of private

revelation, that’s why they are not binding on Catholics. Salvation, on the other hand, is a matter of public revelation, binding on all Christians for all time. You’re comparing apples and oranges.
No, both Marian apparitions and state of the salvation of babies are both non-essential for Catholics and Baptists respectively. Apples-Apples

If “liberty in their beliefs” means considering ALL beliefs equally valid and true then that’s not reasonable at all. Two opposing ideas cannot both be true at the same time.

In Christ,
Nancy

Liberty means we consider each individual has the RIGHT to believe something - no matter if it is true or false. Whether it is true or false depends on the individual’s ability to comprehend. I don’t care what a Muslim believes. He has the personal right to believe in Islam. That doesn’t make it right, but in the end he has to answer for his actions and beliefs, not me - and vice-versa.

Yes, two opposing ideas can be both true at the same time.

A=X AND/OR Y would be a true statement. It means the sun can be either red or orange on different days while retaining its same identity as the sun.

A cannot be both A and not A at the same time and in the same place - is a true statement.

God cannot be both absolute and relative at the same time and the same place, however-

He can be absolute and be understood by the Christian as Jehovah and as Allah by a Muslim

Peace…

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

ahimsaman72:

No red herrings here. It has everything to do with the topic. We were speaking of a belief. I proposed the belief and claimed individual liberty to believe it without outside influence. This is opposed to the idea of a corporate entity (outside influence) deciding the appropriate belief for the individual. So, it’s individual liberty versus corporate mandated beliefs. That’s no red herring.

Following the authority of God through His Church cannot be compared to following the authority of a political leader. They have nothing in this world to do with one another. One is following the divine, the other is following the human. It’s a red herring.

For most Catholics it boils down to authority - authority, authority, authority. For protestants it comes down to liberty and reason with authority coming in a measly third.

.

It still boils down the authority. You can call it “libery and reason” but that’s really nothing other than INDIVIDUAL authority. God left a CHURCH as the upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) and a voice in the world that we are to listen to and not reject lest we be rejecting Christ himself (Luke 10:16).

Catholics recognize, as the early Christians did (Acts 15) that this rests in the Church leadership.

Protestants are offended by this idea and so embrace the unscriptural notion that each individual believer is the upholder, protector and defender of whatever the individual beleiver believes truth is and that each individual believer’s own voice is the voice he should listen to and not reject lest he be rejecting Christ himself. That’s why the unity the Christ prayed for the night before his death does not exist within Protestantism.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[ahimsaman72]

Catholic4aReasn:

Yes, there ARE truths that are absolute. God absolutely exists, even for people who don’t believe he does. Heaven and hell are absolute truths, even for those who don’t believe they exist. God is absolutely a triune God, even for Unitarians who don’t believe he is.

Absolute truths DO exist, even for relativists who don’t believe they do.

In Christ,
Nancy

I agree. But you don’t accept the existence of relative truth, do you? You have only spoken about absolutism. What about relativism?

My desk is made of wood despite my hypothetical and erroneous belief that it is made of metal. It is wood - absolute. It is metal according to my perception of how it looks to me - relative. The path of every human being should be to tread the relative path to find the absolute path. However, we each have to find it for ourselves. No one can truly do this for us.

Peace…

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

That’s a false dichotomy. Law and grace are only methods that God uses to “save” people.

Grace is not a method, it’s God very life dwelling within the soul. Where does scripture teach that grace is a method God uses?

why, the individual of course - who else?

According to scripture, the Church (Acts 151-29, Matt 18:17-18, 1 Tim3:15). Where does scripture teach that the individual decides what is true when there are disputes?

No, both Marian apparitions and state of the salvation of babies are both non-essential for Catholics and Baptists respectively. Apples-Apples

Where does the bible teach that salvation of babies is a non-essential?

Liberty means we consider each individual has the RIGHT to believe something - no matter if it is true or false.

I can’t remeber who said this, but it certainly applies here:

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion- no one is entitle to his own truth.”

Whether it is true or false depends on the individual’s ability to comprehend.

Truth is truth regardless of the individual’s ability to comprehend.

I don’t care what a Muslim believes. He has the personal right to believe in Islam. That doesn’t make it right, but in the end he has to answer for his actions and beliefs, not me - and vice-versa.

True. Islam is not right even though people believe it is.

Yes, two opposing ideas can be both true at the same time.

A=X AND/OR Y would be a true statement. It means the sun can be either red or orange on different days while retaining its same identity as the sun.

If we’re talking about DIFFERENT days then it’s not at the SAME TIME, is it?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[ahimsaman72]

Catholic4aReasn:

Following the authority of God through His Church cannot be compared to following the authority of a political leader. They have nothing in this world to do with one another. One is following the divine, the other is following the human. It’s a red herring.

Nope. The authority of my father over me as a kid is the same as the authority of the Police Department and the State of Iowa and the Federal government. It’s all authority. One entity being subject to another entity.

It still boils down the authority. You can call it “libery and reason” but that’s really nothing other than INDIVIDUAL authority. God left a CHURCH as the upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) and a voice in the world that we are to listen to and not reject lest we be rejecting Christ himself (Luke 10:16).

No, reason and authority are two totally different ideas. Liberty is in the same boat as authority but not reason. Reason was given to us by God’s hand - don’t you agree? Even an athiest has the ability to reason however he may not be under the authority of his father or mother anymore.

Catholics recognize, as the early Christians did (Acts 15) that this rests in the Church leadership.

Protestants are offended by this idea and so embrace the unscriptural notion that each individual believer is the upholder, protector and defender of whatever the individual beleiver believes truth is and that each individual believer’s own voice is the voice he should listen to and not reject lest he be rejecting Christ himself. That’s why the unity the Christ prayed for the night before his death does not exist within Protestantism.

In Christ,
Nancy

Every person on the face of the earth was endowed by the Creator with reason and intelligence (exception being mentally unable). We are each individually responsible for our actions. Is it my dad’s fault if I rob a bank? No. I did it myself. Is it my dad’s fault if I went off to college and became an athiest (hypothetically)? No, of course not. God has given all people the ability to reason and preserve their lives. You know it as free-will. Don’t you believe in free-will?

Peace…

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

ahimsaman72:

I agree. But you don’t accept the existence of relative truth, do you? You have only spoken about absolutism. What about relativism?

My desk is made of wood despite my hypothetical and erroneous belief that it is made of metal. It is wood - absolute. It is metal according to my perception of how it looks to me - relative. The path of every human being should be to tread the relative path to find the absolute path. However, we each have to find it for ourselves. No one can truly do this for us.

Peace…

There is a word for relative truth…“opinion”. Some things are a matter of opinion, other things are not. Those things that are not a matter of opinion but rather are true regardless of the opinions held by individuals to the contrary are ABSOLUTE truths.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

ahimsaman72:

Nope. The authority of my father over me as a kid is the same as the authority of the Police Department and the State of Iowa and the Federal government. It’s all authority. One entity being subject to another entity.

Each of these authorities are subject to error. The Church is not. She is divinely protected from ever officially teaching error. Fathers, police departements and state and federal governments are human authorities, not divinely guided to all truth. That’s why your example is a red herring.

No, reason and authority are two totally different ideas. Liberty is in the same boat as authority but not reason. Reason was given to us by God’s hand - don’t you agree? Even an athiest has the ability to reason however he may not be under the authority of his father or mother anymore.

But, even without knowing it, the atheist in under the authority of his Heavenly Father. That’s why we can’t compare human authority to divine authority. Apples to oranges.

Every person on the face of the earth was endowed by the Creator with reason and intelligence (exception being mentally unable). We are each individually responsible for our actions. Is it my dad’s fault if I rob a bank? No. I did it myself. Is it my dad’s fault if I went off to college and became an athiest (hypothetically)? No, of course not. God has given all people the ability to reason and preserve their lives. You know it as free-will. Don’t you believe in free-will?

What do an individuals’ actions have to do with absolute truth?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[ahimsaman72]

Catholic4aReasn:

Truth is truth regardless of the individual’s ability to comprehend.

Which explains the existence of relative truth and absolute truth.

If we’re talking about DIFFERENT days then it’s not at the SAME TIME, is it?

In Christ,
Nancy

True. It cannot be both red and orange at the same time and in the place. But, it can be red OR orange depending on the time of day or day itself. It didn’t change its physical properties to appear red or orange. It’s still the sun and not the moon. It simply appears that way depending on atmospheric conditions and our eyesight.

Peace…

 

[ahimsaman72]

Catholic4aReasn:

Each of these authorities are subject to error. The Church is not. She is divinely protected from ever officially teaching error. Fathers, police departements and state and federal governments are human authorities, not divinely guided to all truth. That’s why your example is a red herring.

If the church is led by humans, then it is able to err. However, of course you will bring up a verse that says the Holy Spirit will lead into all truth. So, you might use one Scripture to negate a valid universal principle (law)? Divine or secular is not a distinguishing factor. It’s still authority. It presents itself in two different ways.
I’m both a husband and a father - but I’m still a man regardless. I just express myself in two ways depending on conditions.

What do an individuals’ actions have to do with absolute truth?
In Christ,
Nancy

Do you believe in the existence of relative truth? Or is absolute truth all there is? Do both exist?

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

ahimsaman72:

Which explains the existence of relative truth and absolute truth.

True. It cannot be both red and orange at the same time and in the place. But, it can be red OR orange depending on the time of day or day itself. It didn’t change its physical properties to appear red or orange. It’s still the sun and not the moon. It simply appears that way depending on atmospheric conditions and our eyesight.

Peace…

What does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[ahimsaman72]

Catholic4aReasn:

There is a word for relative truth…“opinion”. Some things are a matter of opinion, other things are not. Those things that are not a matter of opinion but rather are true regardless of the opinions held by individuals to the contrary are ABSOLUTE truths.

In Christ,
Nancy

It’s much deeper than that and you know it. Opinion is a function of the logical, rational mind which God gave to each one of us. We use educated guess and opinions to arrive at what is real and true.

And you arrive at absolute truth defined by the Catholic Church. You use the top down approach to solving the problem of truth.

I arrive at absolute truth as defined by my own investigation and observation of how things are. I use the bottom up approach to solving the problem of truth.

Peace…

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

ahimsaman72:

I arrive at absolute truth as defined by my own investigation and observation of how things are. I use the bottom up approach to solving the problem of truth.

.

…which results in a confusing collection of conflicting and contradictory “truths”.

This is decidedly anti-scriptural.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[ahimsaman72]

Catholic4aReasn:

What does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?

In Christ,
Nancy

I believe we have lost our direction on the thread .

As far as I can tell the conversation went from the salvation of babies to who has the authority to decide how they are saved and on to whether the individual or the Church has the ultimate right to determine.

Which leads to you being a Catholic and me a protestant which is the result of separation hundreds of years ago and disunity. I suppose when it comes down to it - you either accept the bold authority claims of the CC or you don’t. Unfortunately, we fall on different sides.

However, I never want you to think for a minute that I think unkindly of you. I value you and your faith while respectfully disagreeing with your beliefs. We shall remain friends either way, I hope

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

ahimsaman72:

I believe we have lost our direction on the thread .

As far as I can tell the conversation went from the salvation of babies to who has the authority to decide how they are saved and on to whether the individual or the Church has the ultimate right to determine.

Which leads to you being a Catholic and me a protestant which is the result of separation hundreds of years ago and disunity. I suppose when it comes down to it - you either accept the bold authority claims of the CC or you don’t. Unfortunately, we fall on different sides.

However, I never want you to think for a minute that I think unkindly of you. I value you and your faith while respectfully disagreeing with your beliefs. We shall remain friends either way, I hope

http://cdn-cf.aol.com/se/clip_art/gstres/celebrte/hug

 

[ahimsaman72]

Catholic4aReasn:

…which results in a confusing collection of conflicting and contradictory “truths”.

This is decidedly anti-scriptural.

In Christ,
Nancy

It is the way of mankind. God didn’t give us all knowledge and absolute truth in the beginning. He gave us life and the ability to reason. He gave us a heart and a soul and a way to experience our world. He gave us free will. That free-will includes the freedom to discover and investigate on our own as we inevitably do.

While our truths seem contradictory and confusing, they are the process we must go through. If we had absolute knowledge then we would be God, wouldn’t we? I’m afraid we’re not.

Peace…

 

[ahimsaman72]

Catholic4aReasn:

http://cdn-cf.aol.com/se/clip_art/gstres/celebrte/hug

hahahaha, where in the world did you get that? That is too good.

Peace sister…