I believe it may be St. Ephrem the Syrian.I assume he was referring to Augustine?
The deposit of faith is a compilation of scripture and tradition (and anything delineated thereafter through the magisterium via ecumenical councils). Moreover, the IC does not contradict the deposit of faith but rather is upheld by what we already know and what we can surmise from all three.Yes. You have attempted to spin St Gregory in the past. These are beautifully poetic words about the Panaghia—but not even close to supporting the IC.
No need to explain it to me. I already know the RC apologetics on this.
Really? Because it was Newman that said, “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant”
If the evidence was “just too strong” why did they convert to the Catholic Church?
A deeper understanding? Yes. Change? No.
Yes, the ideas of obeying the Church established by Jesus Christ for the salvation of souls or picking and choosing what you want to believe because someone thinks they know better then Almighty God and His Church (ie Luther, Calvin) is worth exploring.
Btw, to anyone who’s interested, the following paragraph in (at the time) Bishop Kallistos’ paper reads:According to Kallistos Ware Orthodox are free to believe it.
The Orthodox Church calls Mary ‘All-Holy;’ it calls her ‘immaculate’ or ‘spotless’ (in Greek, achrantos); and all Orthodox are agreed in believing that Our Lady was free from actual sin. But was she also free from original sin? In other words, does Orthodoxy agree with the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, proclaimed as a dogma by Pope Pius the Ninth in 1854, according to which Mary, from the moment she was conceived by her mother Saint Anne, was by God’s special decree delivered from ‘all stain of original sin?’ The Orthodox Church has never in fact made any formal and definitive pronouncement on the matter. In the past individual Orthodox have made statements which, if not definitely affirming the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, at any rate approach close to it; but since 1854 the great majority of Orthodox have rejected the doctrine, for several reasons. They feel it to be unnecessary; they feel that, at any rate as defined by the Roman Catholic Church, it implies a false understanding of original sin; they suspect the doctrine because it seems to separate Mary from the rest of the descendants of Adam, putting her in a completely different class from all the other righteous men and women of the Old Testament. From the Orthodox point of view, however, the whole question belongs to the realm of theological opinion; and if an individual Orthodox today felt impelled to believe in the Immaculate Conception, he could not be termed a heretic for so doing.
(empahsis mine)
The Orthodox are also free to believe that monkeys are rainbow colored, just because one is free to believe something, doesn’t make it true. Immaculate Conception is possible, in God all things are possible, but there is a more logical and more scripturally founded explanation for Mary’s purity, which the Orthodox have chosen to believe.According to Kallistos Ware Orthodox are free to believe it.
The Orthodox isn’t really one to spaz out and declare doctrines. If they don’t see it as harmful to salvation or as leading people significantly astray, they won’t declare it heretical. But Immaculate Conception is not an Orthodox belief, and is not embraced by the Orthodox.
The Orthodox isn’t really one to spaz out and declare doctrines. If they don’t see it as harmful to salvation or as leading people significantly astray, they won’t declare it heretical. But Immaculate Conception is not an Orthodox belief, and is not embraced by the Orthodox.
And please, don’t call him “Mr. Ware”…that’s just taunting the Orthodox.
That’s the usual spin many non-Catholics use of many of these patristic verses (and I agree to a good extent), but I have yet to read from a non-Catholic apologist a concrete reason for why they cannot be used in support of the IC. Not one has taken account of the underlying truth behind the poetic expressions.Yes. You have attempted to spin St Gregory in the past. These are beautifully poetic words about the Panaghia—but not even close to supporting the IC.
I haven’t found the essence/energies distinction in Sacred Scripture or the Councils of the Church either.No need to explain it to me. I already know the RC apologetics on this.
The Holy Orthodox Church does not believe the “IC doctrine” is from Sacred Scripture. We do not believe it is from Sacred Tradition. We do not see it in the great Councils of the Church.
Very well put, brother. EO often complain that the CC is too dogmatic, forgetting that their responses are so very often also just as dogmatic (log in the eye and all that).
Actually, this conversation started about 10 pages back when a catholic member (I can’t remember who and I’m way too lazy to shift through all the pages of this thread) used Immaculate Conception as a reason to reject the Orthodox church. The Orthodox people didn’t start this one
and I agree, it’s probably not that big of a deal, it’s just an obvious difference so people (including me sometimes) get sort of ruffled about it, i guess we should have learned our lesson after about 10 pgs of stalement on the thread I may be mistaken, but I thought it was an Orthodox poster that tried to use it to disprove the Papacy.Actually, this conversation started about 10 pages back when a catholic member (I can’t remember who and I’m way too lazy to shift through all the pages of this thread) used Immaculate Conception as a reason to reject the Orthodox church. The Orthodox people didn’t start this one
The fact that you get ruffled is disturbing. You should be happy that our Faiths are closer then some like to lead others to believe.and I agree, it’s probably not that big of a deal, it’s just an obvious difference so people (including me sometimes) get sort of ruffled about it, i guess we should have learned our lesson after about 10 pgs of stalement on the thread
Why is that a bad thing? 
It probably started and ended several times, when I jumped into the conversation, it was being restarted by a Catholic person. I might look if I have enough free time.I may be mistaken, but I thought it was an Orthodox poster that tried to use it to disprove the Papacy.
I get ruffled because I feel like it doesn’t make sense and has very little foundation in scripture (You can probably tell from my previous posts), but I guess it depends on each person’s read of the bible. I am glad though, now that I think about it, that it wouldn’t stand as a barrier for unification, looks like you are wiser than I amThe fact that you get ruffled is disturbing. You should be happy that our Faiths are closer then some like to lead others to believe.