I am curious about "witches"

[ateista]

Do you guys and gals believe in “witches”? After all you believe in demons… What about witches? Are they just a piece of folklore?

 

[VociMike]

The term “witch” covers a lot of ground. Today there are lots of women (and men?) calling themselves witches as some kind of edgy counter-cultural new-age thing.

 

[ConallCernach]

People can dabble in the occult through the aid of demons.
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0007fea4.asp
that may help.

 

[ateista]

The term “witch” covers a lot of ground. Today there are lots of women (and men?) calling themselves witches as some kind of edgy counter-cultural new-age thing.

You are right, but that is not what I had in mind. I am talking about the “traditional” concept of witches.

 

[ConallCernach]

You are right, but that is not what I had in mind. I am talking about the “traditional” concept of witches.

Traditionally the word witch comes from a word for a wise woman, not a practitioner of the occult.

 

[ateista]

Traditionally the word witch comes from a word for a wise woman, not a practitioner of the occult.

Obviously there are many interpretations of this word. I am still asking if you believe in the “witches” of the Middle Ages, the women who were thought to be practitioners of “dark forces”… do you believe that they exist?

 

[VociMike]

You are right, but that is not what I had in mind. I am talking about the “traditional” concept of witches.

I doubt they existed as portrayed.

 

[ateista]

I doubt they existed as portrayed.

Thank you! That is the kind of answer I was looking for.

 

[VociMike]

Thank you! That is the kind of answer I was looking for.

Actually my answer wasn’t really strong enough. I find it very, very close to inconceivable that they existed as portrayed.

 

[ricko]

Fun to believe in but I have never seen any evidence to prove their existence. So no, I do not believe in the typical broom flying witch.

 

[strngrnrth]

I used to be a witch. It was far more than a countercultural statement.
Which tradition did you have in mind? The pointed hat is a relatively modern addition to the image of a witch, a mishmash of the astrologer-wise-man image in a conical hat and that slouch-hatted witch sneaking off tot he woods to practice incognito, I believe. The European astrologers wore conical hats to focus wisdom near their heads FWIHH. I’d like to find out what scholarship really exists to explain these symbols. I will be predisposed to dismiss any neo-Freudian sexual interpretation of any of it bc I find there are few reasons to credit Freud with much insight. The broom-flyer image came from a combination of burning broom straw to induce levitation-hallucinations and brooms as altar tools (for removing dust rather than flying). Someone just got it mixed up. The image of a witch as an ugly old woman who lives alone on the edge of town is a legacy from a sad chapter in Euro-American history. Dispel right now any notion of witch hunts as a conspiracy to get rid of women by the Church. Historic records show that laypeople, most of them women, many prosperous women, accused others, some men but mostly women, of casting spells on them. They cited plagues that befell the rich before the poor, women before men. In fact these were almost surely foodborne illnesses, affecting women and the rich because that’s who ate the richest food in that culture then, but the food tasted normal so they didn’t think of it. The only reason the accusers could think of that anyone would curse them would be envy – thus, someone with reason to envy them, who knew them, and who acted unusual, was accused. Most who fit that description were old widowed poor women who lived in the worst land, away from the villages and towns. The signs of senile dementia were little understood then, when so few people lived that long. Almost all Protestant leaders and the Catholic Church defended the accused, assured the accusers they were not cursed, and sought a real explanation for the plagues. It lasted different amounts of time in different places, but was over in Western society 350-400 years after it started. The earliest witch hunts took place in France. The last took place in colonial North America. Today witch trials continue, in primarily pagan societies, and every large Christian community or church forbids anyone to try anyone or punish anyone as a witch. If you know Christians who are punishing people as witches now, I hope you are speaking out about it to your community and demonstrating compassion for the accused.
The word “witch” probably doesn’t actually come from “wicce” (wise woman) but from “weik” (turner, bender, twister).

 

[Le_Chiot_Noir]

I see no reason to be coy about this. Yes, we certainly do believe in witches.

By the way, strngrnrth, thank you for your post; it was very educational for me.

 

[Usagi]

I see no reason to be coy about this. Yes, we certainly do believe in witches.

Do we?

The Church does warn against Christians becoming involved in attempts to control reality by occult means, whether by consulting people who claim to have such power or attempting to gain such power themselves.

But has the Church, as opposed to popular superstition, ever come out and said that there exist people who have actually succeeded in gaining occult power from Satan?

Certainly there exist believers in various pagan and neo-pagan religions, some of whom use the term “witch.” There also exist con artists who claim supernatural powers to bilk others, and even folks who honestly believe they possess such powers (though usually with little evidence). Are we bound to believe, though, that there are actual curse-laying witches out there? I’m not so sure.

Usagi

 

[Le_Chiot_Noir]

Do we?

The Church does warn against Christians becoming involved in attempts to control reality by occult means, whether by consulting people who claim to have such power or attempting to gain such power themselves.

But has the Church, as opposed to popular superstition, ever come out and said that there exist people who have actually succeeded in gaining occult power from Satan?

Certainly there exist believers in various pagan and neo-pagan religions, some of whom use the term “witch.” There also exist con artists who claim supernatural powers to bilk others, and even folks who honestly believe they possess such powers (though usually with little evidence). Are we bound to believe, though, that there are actual curse-laying witches out there? I’m not so sure.

Usagi

Well, of course no one is bound to believe in witches. It’s nowhere near a necessary component of our belief system.

… but from just a handful of premises, both secular and Scriptural, the existence of witches can easily be deduced. There exists in secular science the (somewhat ridiculed) disciplines of parapsychology, but I am not familiar with their investigations on witches, so I will not go deeper than merely providing a reminder that it does exist.

I am a little more familiar with the fact that there exists a holy office of excorcists in the Church’s service, and, in their line of work, they do have to deal with their opposite number on occasion, witches included. I am refering chiefly to the instances of these cases as they occur in third world countries where witchcraft in its truest form is still alive and well, and where the Church has to fight it.

The question was yes or no. I hesitated to speak for everyone as a whole, but I went ahead and said, yes, the simple matter of their existence is easy enough to affirm. The nature of witches, their current operation in the world, and their relevance to us today is another matter.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Obviously there are many interpretations of this word. I am still asking if you believe in the “witches” of the Middle Ages, the women who were thought to be practitioners of “dark forces”… do you believe that they exist?

Well, clearly the 1500’s and later Protestants believed in witches - they burned over 50,000 of them at the stake in Europe and many here in the American colonies as well - surpassing the alleged inquisitional executions by orders of magnitude.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Humanity has a long established tradition and belief in The Evil Eye that goes way back to the time of the ancient Jews and probably before that. It’s all interconnected with many current beliefs and folklore.

James

 

[Contarini]

You are right, but that is not what I had in mind. I am talking about the “traditional” concept of witches.

Yes, but what is that? Most people think of the “Malleus Maleficarum” from the 15th century, but this wasn’t really a “traditional” view–it was innovative in many ways. For most of the Middle Ages the Church was very skeptical about the efficacy of witchcraft, seeing it as a piece of wicked folly but not a serious threat. The common people believed that witches could harm others, and this was usually the basis for witchcraft accusations. Until the very late Middle Ages (the Renaissance, really) the Church didn’t get too excited about this. But from the 15th century on the conviction grew that there really were people who had a pact with the devil and were a threat to the Church. This elite ideology about the nature of witchcraft was superimposed onto local folk beliefs. In other words, the common people would say, “So and so is a witch because she looked at my cows funny and then they stopped giving milk.” The Inquisitor or government official (the latter were generally harsher and more prone to get carried away) would come in and torture the suspected witch to make her (or sometimes him) confess having ridden on broomsticks and met with the devil at night, etc.–which usually had nothing to do with the original accusation.

This early modern pattern of witchcraft belief was clearly false–there is no evidence that there were large groups of people running around at night meeting with the devil, or deluding themselves into thinking that they were doing so. There is no evidence that, as some neo-Pagans have claimed, the “witches” were really an underground pagan religion. They seem to have ranged from practitioners of folk magic to innocent people who happened to be unpopular with their neighbors or were caught up in the hysteria for some other reason.

Are there people who meddle with preternatural stuff that is very bad for them? Definitely. Do some of those people try to make contact with evil spirits, and perhaps succeed? Probably. Is there or has there ever been a large, organized community of people who worship Satan? Probably not. Accounts pointing to such a community always seem unreliable and stereotyped, and often look as if they were manufactured for sensationalistic reasons. Even if there is, it isn’t something Christians should freak out about. We believe that Satan has already been defeated on the Cross and can only harm us if we let him.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Well, clearly the 1500’s and later Protestants believed in witches - they burned over 50,000 of them at the stake in Europe and many here in the American colonies as well - surpassing the alleged inquisitional executions by orders of magnitude.

James

Oh don’t give me this. Both Protestants and Catholics killed witches in roughly equal proportions–it varied from region to region but not obviously from confession to confession. You are confusing “Catholic persecutions” in general with the Inquisition in particular. You ought to know better.

It’s also nonsense to say that the numbers surpass the “alleged inquisitional executions by orders of magnitude.” The numbers you give surpass the proven executions of the Spanish Inquisition by a figure of about 10 to 1, I believe (assuming your numbers for the Protestant witch-burnings are correct, which is a dubious assumption given your other flawed claims). Add in all the Inquisitions–all the church courts using Roman law from the 13th century on–and I’m sure that if the numbers you give are greater, it’s not by “orders of magnitude.” And of course the “alleged inquisitional executions” run into the millions. The allegations are silly, but you did use the word “alleged.”

You can defend your Church quite well without distorting the truth. You should try this tactic sometime. It would avoid getting you into fights with people like me, who are not trying to discredit Catholicism but do care a little about history.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Obviously there are many interpretations of this word. I am still asking if you believe in the “witches” of the Middle Ages, the women who were thought to be practitioners of “dark forces”…

This was more a Renaissance belief than a medieval one.

Edwin

 

[bpbasilphx]

I am still asking if you believe in the “witches” of the Middle Ages, the women who were thought to be practitioners of “dark forces”… do you believe that they exist?

No, I don’t believe they ever did exist. That gives the devil too much power.