I am disturbed by the Catechism's Veiw on Muslims

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841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

If the Catholic Church is stating in paragraph 841 above, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that there are those within the Muslim community who may find salvation by becoming Christians and not remaining Muslims, then I would agree. But, it does not appear to be saying this.
What is disturbing is the statement that “together with us they [Muslims] adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” So, Catholics and Muslims both “adore the one, merciful God.” Quite frankly, it would seem that the Roman Catholic church has a faulty understanding of the God of Islam.
Allah is not a trinity. Allah is only one.
“They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them,” (Quran 5:73, Yusufali).
“They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve,” (Quran 5:73, Pickthal). See Chapter five of Online version of Quran.
Since the Trinity is the true biblical doctrine of God, how can the Muslims who deny the Trinity “adore the one, merciful God”? They cannot. Furthermore, in Christianity, Jesus is divine in nature (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9). Yet, the Quran states that Jesus is not divine:

“They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah’s is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things,” (Quran 5:17, Pickthal).
“And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!” (Quran 5:30, Pickthal)
Obviously, the Muslims do not adore the one true merciful God because they serve a false god. They deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ. Quite simply, they deny the true God and are not capable of adoring the true God as long as they hold to the false teachings of Islam. Therefore the paragraph in the CCC cannot be correct.

Why would they put such a blaringly uncorrect staement in the Catechism??
 
Remember, Jews don’t believe in the Trinity either, but to say that they don’t believe in the God of Christianity is downright blasphemy. Moses didn’t believe in the Trinity, after all.

You’re splitting hairs, here, I think. Insofar as Muslims recognize the God of Abraham, they are brothers and sisters in worship. Insofar as they don’t, they are not.

The Muslims are wrong about God, but that doesn’t mean they don’t believe in Him.
 
Allah is not a trinity. Allah is only one.
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First off i think you have a misunderstanding of the trinity if you think that this is true. This does not pretain to the thread so i will not address it.

Secondly, the Catholic Church has always said that salvation can be found outside the Church. It does not however guaranttee salvation inside nor outside the church. The Church is here to merry guide those to God and ultimately salvation.

Weather you want to accept this or not Muslims do acknowledge The Creator. This does not mean that we think the Quran is a true book from God nor does this mean we think Muhammed is a true prophet. Because as Christians we know that you do not need a book nor a prophet to know God all you need is prayer.
 
The CCC is right, dead on!

There is no contradiction with these 3 statements!!!
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

There is no salvation other than through Jesus!

There is no salvation outside the Church(the body of Jesus)!

Peace.
Your brother in the Lord Jesus,
Luigi
 
Keep in mind the Catechism says, “these profess to hold the faith of Abraham…” Just because someone “professes” to hold a certain view does not mean they do. It means they claim to hold that faith, they think they do. Muslims believe they follow the one God. But their perception of Him is certainly skewed and they have a very imperfect view of God. It stems form their inability to believe in the Most Holy Trinity, which they cannot understand***. That stems from falling into the Mohammedan Heresy. It is no different from other heresies except that it formed outside the Christian world, and because of that, it was allowed to grow basically through neglect. It simply was not countered like the other heresies.

***Don’t jump my back because I said they cannot understand the Trinity. It’s ridiculously common for Muslims to equate the belief in the Triune God with three gods. It has been explained to the nth degree that we believe He is one God, but Triune. They still claim we worship three gods. So it’s either that they know that but just won’t admit it, or they really cannot grasp the concept of Trinity.
 
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Chazemataz:
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

If the Catholic Church is stating in paragraph 841 above, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that there are those within the Muslim community who may find salvation by becoming Christians and not remaining Muslims, then I would agree. But, it does not appear to be saying this.
What is disturbing is the statement that “together with us they [Muslims] adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” So, Catholics and Muslims both “adore the one, merciful God.” Quite frankly, it would seem that the Roman Catholic church has a faulty understanding of the God of Islam.
Allah is not a trinity. Allah is only one.
“They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them,” (Quran 5:73, Yusufali).
“They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve,” (Quran 5:73, Pickthal). See Chapter five of Online version of Quran.
Since the Trinity is the true biblical doctrine of God, how can the Muslims who deny the Trinity “adore the one, merciful God”? They cannot. Furthermore, in Christianity, Jesus is divine in nature (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9). Yet, the Quran states that Jesus is not divine:

“They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah’s is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things,” (Quran 5:17, Pickthal).
“And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!” (Quran 5:30, Pickthal)
Obviously, the Muslims do not adore the one true merciful God because they serve a false god. They deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ. Quite simply, they deny the true God and are not capable of adoring the true God as long as they hold to the false teachings of Islam. Therefore the paragraph in the CCC cannot be correct.

Why would they put such a blaringly uncorrect staement in the Catechism??
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It was men who put it together…so cant another group of men change it? They can add something that says “people who believe in worship a one, unique God…that is not three persons in 1…are destined for Hell” I personally wouldn thave a problem with it 😃
 
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UnworthySoul:
they have a very imperfect view of God. It stems form their inability to believe in the Most Holy Trinity, which they cannot understand***.

***Don’t jump my back because I said they cannot understand the Trinity. It’s ridiculously common for Muslims to equate the belief in the Triune God with three gods. It has been explained to the nth degree that we believe He is one God, but Triune. They still claim we worship three gods. So it’s either that they know that but just won’t admit it, or they really cannot grasp the concept of Trinity.
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Unworthy,

I’m not going to jump on you because I don’t believe you meant anything insulting and I think the respondents to the original poster have all exercised charity and civility.

But, to steer your words away from anything that our Muslim brethren might perceive as an insult, I am going to interject a point here, something that I ordinarily don’t do in my moderator role. You speak of “understanding” the Trinity as if it were an intellectual concept to be grasped, leaving your words open to being interpreted as if Muslims were intellectually incapable of doing so.

I think it’s important to recognize that the whole idea of the Trinity is a Mystery, that Catholics believe and accept as a matter of Faith - not that the human mind is ever capable of fully understanding it (Saint Patrick’s analogy to the shamrock or trefoil, notwithstanding 😃 ). That Muslims do not adopt this precept is not a function of an inability to understand, but an unwillingness to accept an idea that is not inherent to their Faith; such is the way of all faiths, our own included. We believe what we have been taught to believe or what we have chosen to accept. There is no mystery in that, it is human nature.

Joe
 
John 14:6 says,
Jesus answered him,"I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one goes to the Father except by me.
According to this Bible words there is no salvation to Muslims.

In Christ,
selvaraj
 
The catechism statement is consistant with the ecumenical approach of the church since Vatican II. In short, dialogue with other religions, discern what elements of those faiths ARE true and use that common ground as a basis for building understanding and respect for one another.

Very few conversions come from confronting someone over how WRONG their beliefs are. Conversions come when one sees how your faith has transformed you and THEN learns what it is that is so different about you.

God’s justice is perfect. Ours is not. Judgement, thanks be to God, is HIS job. It is my understanding that the Church teaches that God will judge each man individually and will fully consider ALL the extenuating circumstances. Even faulty human notions of justice incorporate this somewhat.

Is IS true that noone can be saved apart from Christ. That doesn’t mean that a few won’t be saved by Christ without knowing His name.
 
Joe Monahan:
Unworthy,

I’m not going to jump on you because I don’t believe you meant anything insulting and I think the respondents to the original poster have all exercised charity and civility.

But, to steer your words away from anything that our Muslim brethren might perceive as an insult, I am going to interject a point here, something that I ordinarily don’t do in my moderator role. You speak of “understanding” the Trinity as if it were an intellectual concept to be grasped, leaving your words open to being interpreted as if Muslims were intellectually incapable of doing so.

I think it’s important to recognize that the whole idea of the Trinity is a Mystery, that Catholics believe and accept as a matter of Faith - not that the human mind is ever capable of fully understanding it (Saint Patrick’s analogy to the shamrock or trefoil, notwithstanding 😃 ). That Muslims do not adopt this precept is not a function of an inability to understand, but an unwillingness to accept an idea that is not inherent to their Faith; such is the way of all faiths, our own included. We believe what we have been taught to believe or what we have chosen to accept. There is no mystery in that, it is human nature.

Joe
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Much obliged and I see your point. It is indeed a Mystery, which makes my use of the word “understand” improper. I do however, feel I would be remiss if I did not address the common misguided belief that we worship three gods. If we tell them we do not, if we do all we can to show we do not, then to continue to say we do must be the result of something else. It would be one thing for Muslims to say, “They believe that the one God is Triune. We disagree with this.” That is not what is usually said though, they (not all, I make no blanket statement) continue to claim we worship three separate gods. This is false. So, and I understand that this may offend, but truth can do that, I must ascribe this insisting on syaing we are polytheists to other origins.

Thanks for your reply.
 
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chb03c:
Secondly, the Catholic Church has always said that salvation can be found outside the Church.
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I think your intention is right when you said this, however I think your wording is misleading. The reason those outside the formal church can be saved is because of their desire to be part of the church (that is, the body of worshippers). It is by their desire to be a part of the church, that they are a part of the church. It is a dogma that there is no salvation outside of the church.
 
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geocajun:
I think your intention is right when you said this, however I think your wording is misleading. The reason those outside the formal church can be saved is because of their desire to be part of the church (that is, the body of worshippers). It is by their desire to be a part of the church, that they are a part of the church. It is a dogma that there is no salvation outside of the church.
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Thank you for clearifying 🙂
 
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LuigiColetta:
The CCC is right, dead on!

There is no contradiction with these 3 statements!!!
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]

There is no salvation other than through Jesus!

There is no salvation outside the Church(the body of Jesus)!

Peace.
Your brother in the Lord Jesus,
Luigi
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Yep. Let’s remember, the plan of Salvation includes ALL men. And Muslims fall under ALL men. Now, will all men be saved? Probably not–that goes for Catholics and non-Catholics. All people who end up being saved are saved by Christ through the Church. People who are not Catholic through no fault of their own, follow the law written on all our hearts, and go with the grace they are given, they are also united to the Church and it’s safe to say Jesus will have mercy on their ignorance.👍
 
Reading the previous posts, I agree with what has been said regarding the ‘faith’ and ‘mystery’ that surrounds an understanding (as close to understanding as mere humans can get to God, how ever you refer to him). The aspect that of this faith that wears Christians down, is the inablility of some to be beyond the ‘incarnate’ when discussing the Trinity. I am bust a mere person, physical in every way, sinful and frail and subject to all that the world can plaace before me adn within my heart. I am also someones “daughter”, “mother”, “wife”, “grandmother”, “sister”, “friend” and “employer”, and more. However, at all times I am one person, no matter what role, what time, what place, I am just me. God, in a perfection from all eternity, is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Not the multiplicity that makes my life, but a perfection of Love and Justice that I cannot comprehend and could never deserve. This Unity calls me daughter and promises salvation. I remain humble and accepting of what I cannot understand. This is the essence of the Christian Faith. It requires a leap of faith. We need to find ways to express the Love that Jesus bore in the Incarnation to our Muslim brethren. Pax Christe
 
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selvaraj:
John 14:6 says,
Jesus answered him,"I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one goes to the Father except by me.
According to this Bible words there is no salvation to Muslims.

In Christ,
selvaraj
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That is a false statement!
If I were to take your statement to be true, it would mean that you are telling Jesus who He should save and who He shouldn’t.
The truth of Jesus being the way, the truth, and the life and that no one goes to the Father except by Him is just that…Jesus decides!
Peace,
Luigi
 
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selvaraj:
John 14:6 says,
Jesus answered him,"I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one goes to the Father except by me.
According to this Bible words there is no salvation to Muslims.

In Christ,
selvaraj
Click to expand...
Salaam Friend selvaraj;

If the verse you quoted means what you understood it to be, then all those (not their fault really) who never heard about Jesus (PBUH), be it before or after his advent, all those people will not be saved.

You are condemning a whole bunch of humanity whose only guilt is not to have heard about a supposed savior who came either after or before they were born.

Imagine how it would be embarrassing for God the day of judgment when he will ask someone: Why did not you accept that I sent my son to die for your sins? My Lord I have never heard such a thing, you know I was born before him and you took my soul long before his coming, if you made your son (born after me) the only way to you, I could not follow him while being dead. Can you imagine God embarrassed by his creation?

God is the Just Judge, he will deal with everyone justly, this is something I am sure of.
Did you find the above offending? Please accept my apologies if it is the case.

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
I’m told that the Aramaic word for God is ‘Ala.’ That would make it the word Jesus used. Interesting that it should be so close to the Muslim 'Allah.'
 
Jesus descended to the dead to free the righteous souls that responded to God’s love but were waiting for the sacrifice that would open the gates of heaven. The orginal sin of humanity ties each of us to Hell upon our death only through the reparation of Jesus is it possible to enter heaven. Those that reject this repartion, in their heart, cannot enter heaven. There is no embarassemnet here. It applies now as it applied for all time, to all humanity. The problem is only Jesus knows your heart. However remote, a Muslim may in fact love Jesus through his heart while cursing Christians with their mouths.

When you die your soul is fixed and can not change because it has left the realm of time. If the soul is fixed on the self sacrificing love of Jesus then forever will it be united to God. If a soul dies cursing those who love Jesus then it will be separated from God forever. Muslims by sweeping away centuries of Divine revelation to create the fictions of the Koran have instituionalised a form of cursing Christians into their religion. On the surface it appears that all Musilims then will be denied heaven however only Jesus can peer inside their heart to verify if that is true.

For the most part Muslims are sad for us because they think we are going to hell. I take hope in this empathy, It shows that some Muslims have not hardened their heart so completely, empathy and sincere concern for our fellow humans can form the basis of dialogue and respect. It must pain many muslims to think that so many Christains are going to hell. Imagine the surprise and then relief that many good hearted Muslims will have when they meet Allah and find out he is Jesus and the Catholic Church is the new Jerusalem.

God Bless
 
let me get this straight… :hmmm:
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Ghosty:
Moses didn’t believe in the Trinity, after all.
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yet, moses was a prophet and messenger sent by God. moses, a prophet who received revelation and who, according to you prophecized the coming of jesus - who you believe to be God in the flesh - which basically means he prophecized God’s coming to earth… yet, he does not know the nature of the One who sent him!!!
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LuigiColetta:
There is no salvation other than through Jesus!

There is no salvation outside the Church(the body of Jesus)!
Click to expand...
according to these absolute statements, there’s no salvation for those who do not believe in the trinity. yet, your brother ghostly says that moses did not believe in it. now, if both these quotes hold true, that would entail that a prophet of God is not going to heaven ( :bigyikes: ), along with all those who believed in what that particular prophet preached and who followed him, worshipping God according to what he came to them with.

now, does this not make sense to anyone except me???
 
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r.gonzales:
let me get this straight… :hmmm:
according to these absolute statements, there’s no salvation for those who do not believe in the trinity. yet, your brother ghostly says that moses did not believe in it. now, if both these quotes hold true, that would entail that a prophet of God is not going to heaven ( :bigyikes: ), along with all those who believed in what that particular prophet preached and who followed him, worshipping God according to what he came to them with.

now, does this not make sense to anyone except me???
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Brother Gonzales, it isn’t fair that you didn’t show my whole post, which was only a few more words than you quoted.
I hope you just misunderstood it and thush didn’t mean to be mischevious.

My post had an additional phrase in it. The 2 that you mentioned plus the 3rd one are all not contradicting each other.

Now, I guess I should explain why those 3 phrases are not in contradiction to eachother, since, seemingly, you totally missed the message.

As a catholic christian I believe in all of those 3 statements are fully 100% true. I hold that I could replace the first phrase with “God has a plan of salvation for an Atheist” who rejects even the notion of the existance of a God and the 2 statements you quoted above are all 100% not contradicting each other. I can substitute this sentence with “a murder that blasphemes Jesus may be saved” and the 2 additional statements are 100% true and non contradicting each other. and so on.

we believe that all decision rests on Jesus and His body, the church. But we currently do not see everything as we should. We cannot read the hearts of each man, and we don’t know all the situations that causes each human to behave in a certain way. At judgement this will be all revealed and clear…and a just judgement will take place. It’s true, we believe there is no salvation other than Jesus, and there is no salvation outside of the church, becasue the church is Jesus’ body; we are one with Him as He is with the Father. This unification may be a mystery, but it isn’t too difficult to grasp the basic idea. We are currently not perfect, but we will be at the resurrection and Jesus and His chosen ones will judge each according to the 100% truth, and the will of the Church will be One with Jesus.

May God, the creator, show us all His creation at the resurrection of the dead.
Peace,
Your brother,
Luigi
 
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