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exoflare
Guest
In your profile.
I’ll get to the rest later.
- Status
I’ll get to the rest later.
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HelpingHands
Guest
Breadboy,
Catholics view Baptists as Protestants. Your ‘churches’ are a result of the Protestant movement, which broke away from the Church that Jesus started.
Catholics view Baptists as Protestants. Your ‘churches’ are a result of the Protestant movement, which broke away from the Church that Jesus started.
B
breadboy
Guest
You know, I’ve known that some Catholics are very defiant about Protestants. My wife is Catholic. We’ve been able to put aside small differences because we both believe that Jesus Christ is our Savior, and only Jesus Christ. Just as there are many Protestants that don’t like Catholics, you seem to fulfill the same on the Catholic side. You’re more accepting of a group of people who don’t believe in Jesus at all than you are of fellow Christians. We’re getting off topic now, since we seem to be rewinding to why the Protestants split from the Catholics. I’m not going to get into that because Peter was never referred to, by Jesus, as a Pope, or a figurehead of such. He was simply referred to as the rock, “on which my church will stand.” He was human, like the rest of us. That’s proven when he denied Christ 3 times before He was crucified. We all would have done the same. It was Christ who paid our debt in full! So does that mean the other disciples represent the other denominations of Christianity? If not, then, how does Peter live on until today? Only the Holy Spirit, available to all who will recieve him, lives on today.
My approach at this debate is not about Theology at all. My personal reasoning and thoughts don’t count. I’m using scripture to make points, not my own pondering. Just because we don’t understand why certain people are born in hostile places doesn’t mean God has to alter his own intent. Read Acts 17:26. Where people live is no accident. God doesn’t make mistakes. What about the people who didn’t know Noah, and didn’t see the Ark being built for 100+ years, did they just miraculously float for a year since they were born in the wrong part of the Earth? Muslims are able to hear the Gospel, under very dangerous circumstances in the Middle East and South East Asia and Indonesia. In some countries they’ll be beheaded if they convert. That’s an overcomer!
I didn’t intend for any hostility to start. I apologize if I’ve come off that way, but when I see something contradictory to scripture I’m going to speak up. In these days I believe all Christians need to stand together. We are only here to spread the Good Word to the world. That’s it. We are to win souls to Christ. We’re not making the world a perfect place for Jesus to return, we can’t do that; He’s coming back to put a stop to our insanity.
My approach at this debate is not about Theology at all. My personal reasoning and thoughts don’t count. I’m using scripture to make points, not my own pondering. Just because we don’t understand why certain people are born in hostile places doesn’t mean God has to alter his own intent. Read Acts 17:26. Where people live is no accident. God doesn’t make mistakes. What about the people who didn’t know Noah, and didn’t see the Ark being built for 100+ years, did they just miraculously float for a year since they were born in the wrong part of the Earth? Muslims are able to hear the Gospel, under very dangerous circumstances in the Middle East and South East Asia and Indonesia. In some countries they’ll be beheaded if they convert. That’s an overcomer!
I didn’t intend for any hostility to start. I apologize if I’ve come off that way, but when I see something contradictory to scripture I’m going to speak up. In these days I believe all Christians need to stand together. We are only here to spread the Good Word to the world. That’s it. We are to win souls to Christ. We’re not making the world a perfect place for Jesus to return, we can’t do that; He’s coming back to put a stop to our insanity.
C
Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Not necessarily selvaraj.
This verse says that salvation is only through Jesus Christ, but it speaks nothing as to how one receives that salvation. You seem to be assuming here that one must be in a relationship with Christ for a particular amount of time. It’s entirely possible that, for those such as the Muslim who had no opportunity to learn what we know to be true, that Christ could come to him in that moment between the time he slips into unconsciousness and death.
ALL who will be saved will be saved because of the saving work of Christ. But it’s wrong to assume that the way that Christ works in Christians is the only way that Christ can and does work in people.
In Christ,
Nancy
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Genesis315
Guest
I think it’s interesting to note that when Jesus casts people into eternal flames He says, “depart, I never knew you” not “depart you never knew me.”
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
EXCELLECT point!! :clapping:
In Christ,
Nancy
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meedo
Guest
i am afraid i dont understand your point ?
I am sorry i am not a christian. Can u please elaborate?
I am sorry i am not a christian. Can u please elaborate?
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breadboy
Guest
Getting back to the original topic of this thread, the Catechism states, “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator…” Read Genesis 1:1-1:26.
God says, “Let there be” for the Earth and Stars, and land and water, and even animals and plants. But, when he gets to man, he says, “Let US create…” (this is in verse 26). Us is plural. It’s the trinity.
So, following the God of Abraham would mean you have knoweledge of the Trinity. Or, is Genesis not applicable?
Also, if the plan of salvation included non Jews, why would they be listed in the Catechism as, “in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims”, when the Bible (which we Christians are supposed to believe) states in Romans 1:16, “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.” Ask a Muslim if they fall under the catergory of Jew.
Also, I was told in a rebuttal to one of my previous responses that the Catholic Church is that church that Jesus started. I thought the Church started on the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit filled 120 people and 3,000 people were saved that day! Read Acts 2. Peter is the one who addressed the crowd! And what did Peter say?
Acts 2:36, "“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Again, we are to love everyone and win them to Christ! Do you believe it or not? Joshua 24:15, “Chose you this day who you will serve…” Well?
God says, “Let there be” for the Earth and Stars, and land and water, and even animals and plants. But, when he gets to man, he says, “Let US create…” (this is in verse 26). Us is plural. It’s the trinity.
So, following the God of Abraham would mean you have knoweledge of the Trinity. Or, is Genesis not applicable?
Also, if the plan of salvation included non Jews, why would they be listed in the Catechism as, “in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims”, when the Bible (which we Christians are supposed to believe) states in Romans 1:16, “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.” Ask a Muslim if they fall under the catergory of Jew.
Also, I was told in a rebuttal to one of my previous responses that the Catholic Church is that church that Jesus started. I thought the Church started on the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit filled 120 people and 3,000 people were saved that day! Read Acts 2. Peter is the one who addressed the crowd! And what did Peter say?
Acts 2:36, "“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Again, we are to love everyone and win them to Christ! Do you believe it or not? Joshua 24:15, “Chose you this day who you will serve…” Well?
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Ghosty
Guest
Jews do not, and never have, recognize the Trinity. The “us” is a linguistic quirk of Semetic languages when the speaker is a ruler of great power, and this is well studied and explained elsewhere.
Jesus introduced the concept of the Trinity for the first time, and knowledge of it is not required for one to be holy or justified by Christ’s death.
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breadboy
Guest
Wow. What resistance. So now Genesis has a grammatical error?
Oh boy!
Check out this web page:
catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Faith/1998-01-02/trinity.html
Maybe these Catholics are the ones who don’t hate Protestants, unlike yourselves.
Philippians 2:5-11, "5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature** of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father. "
That’s the good news folks! This is my last post, I’m sure to most of you that’s a relief. May the Lord bless you all. And to the Muslims that are reading, I am this adamant because I want you to experience the Love of Christ. I don’t hate you; I want you to come to know the Truth. I want you to be saved.
For everyone, please watch this video:
onefather.com/video/FLLNarr_256k.wmv
Marantha!**
Oh boy!
Check out this web page:
catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Faith/1998-01-02/trinity.html
Maybe these Catholics are the ones who don’t hate Protestants, unlike yourselves.
Philippians 2:5-11, "5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature** of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father. "
That’s the good news folks! This is my last post, I’m sure to most of you that’s a relief. May the Lord bless you all. And to the Muslims that are reading, I am this adamant because I want you to experience the Love of Christ. I don’t hate you; I want you to come to know the Truth. I want you to be saved.
For everyone, please watch this video:
onefather.com/video/FLLNarr_256k.wmv
Marantha!**
M
meedo
Guest
Thank you bread boy .
S
SeaZephyr4JC
Guest
With all due respect, I do not think that anyone who points to Gensis to give evidence for the Trinity has ever claimed that it meant the Jews believed in the Trinity. I think that they have pointed to it to simply show that there is a kernal of this truth present in the OT even in Genesis. This argument is not a statement about Jewish belief about what the “us” and “our” in Gensesis means at all. Clearly they do not think it means “Trinity”. I think its abundantly obvious to anyone who knows even a little bit about the Jews that the Jews do not believe in the Trinity.
Since the time of Christ’s establishment of the Church, it has been the Magisterium of the Catholic Church’s job to interpret authentically and officially what scripture means and no one else’s, so scholarly and lengthy demonstrations about what OT scripture means to the Jews has little bearing on what God truly and ultimately did intend and what He truly and ultimately did mean. It does however, help give us insight to what their thinking is about such things and why they find belief in the Trinity hard to accept. God bless.
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Ghosty
Guest
Reread what he said. He said that to worship the God of Abraham you must have knowledge of the Trinity. That means that Abraham didn’t worship the God of Abraham.
Breadboy: I didn’t say that Genesis has a grammatical error, I said you have an error in understanding Semitic grammar. A sadly all-to-typical twisting of words.
To quote the website you linked to:
The full revelation of the Trinity is not given until the sending of the Son and the Holy Spirit. The eternal relationships within the Godhead could not be known by natural reason, but were revealed progressively with the Incarnation and Pentecost, which are extensions into time of the eternal processions. Yet there are traces of the triune God throughout the Old Testament. **Standing alone, these traces could never be understood as references to Persons in the Trinity. Only with the New Testament revelation is new light cast on the meaning of many Old Testament passages. **/QUOTE]
That’s exactly what I said. Jews, including Abraham, did not have the revelation of the New Testament, and therefore did not/do not view any of those things as Trinitarian. By your own implication, therefore, Abraham did not worship the God of Abraham.
I don’t hate Protestants at all, but I will call a spade a spade, and heresy a heresy. Protestantism, particularily that found in Baptist theology, is extremely poorly founded, and heretical. The reason I became Catholic and not Protestant is because of these weaknesses in Protestant theology, the lack of logic, and the propensity to twist words in order to support faulty conclusions.
It’s not a matter of hate at all, I love many Protestants, fell in love with one in fact (who is now entering the Church, praise be to God), it’s simply a matter of Truth and history, things that Protestants lack in large portions. I will pray that you are able to see this and come home to Christ and His Church.
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sainted
Guest
To those who are conversant with the trinity or the only one God belief as a prerequisite into gaining salvation … please answer my question.
If I agree on everything you hold as truth about God and his redemptive power for man irrespective of how that person sees God as, and I go about preaching that the catholic church is wrong about the trinity. I may also preach that the muslims are wrong about the only one God. Instead I preach based on my belief that there really are two God in one, namely God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
Would I still be saved when I’m summoned before God and inspite of all the good works I’ve done in my life in preaching God to all people I was rebuked on one count. That is I didn’t acknowledge Jesus as divine and as God the Son.
If I agree on everything you hold as truth about God and his redemptive power for man irrespective of how that person sees God as, and I go about preaching that the catholic church is wrong about the trinity. I may also preach that the muslims are wrong about the only one God. Instead I preach based on my belief that there really are two God in one, namely God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
Would I still be saved when I’m summoned before God and inspite of all the good works I’ve done in my life in preaching God to all people I was rebuked on one count. That is I didn’t acknowledge Jesus as divine and as God the Son.
D
Darrel
Guest
The only one who can answer this is God. We can sit here all day and talk about who is right and who is wrong. Which religion is right or wrong etc etc. If God does not think as man thinks or acts as man acts how can we assume he will judge as man judges?
The Church is wise to say it can not say how God will judge. I will leave it to him because we are not assigned by him to figure out the contents of each individual human heart. I have enough to worry about in myself to be judged for.
-D
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sainted
Guest
Thankyou Darrel for the response but I’m still not satisfied. I assume then that it is ok to believe what I have been revealed and not pose any danger to RCC and Islam alike if I preach on this, and can still count on my salvation and of my followers.
What has happened to the Truth that the RCC used to uphold and preach on about of what has been revealed of the true nature of their God by Christ. I thought your Christ’s main mission was to reveal the Truth about Him and the Father as He himself was the Truth nothing else but the only Truth. Needless to say it was this Truth that had cost millions lives in centuries of who ever might have gone astray from it.
After almost 2000 years of murder on the defense of this Truth is the church now accepting any other Relative truth thinking that they are all acceptable to God.
What has happened to the Truth that the RCC used to uphold and preach on about of what has been revealed of the true nature of their God by Christ. I thought your Christ’s main mission was to reveal the Truth about Him and the Father as He himself was the Truth nothing else but the only Truth. Needless to say it was this Truth that had cost millions lives in centuries of who ever might have gone astray from it.
After almost 2000 years of murder on the defense of this Truth is the church now accepting any other Relative truth thinking that they are all acceptable to God.
T
Tibbar
Guest
There are a number of evangelical Christians, such as Dave Hunt, who espouse that the God of Moslems is an entirely different God than the God of Christians. These say that the God of Moslems evolved out of a pagan lunar deity. Some go so far as to say that the Moslems unwittingly worship Satan herself (thought I’d throw that one in for all the Frances Kissling types out there).
However, a careful study of the development and origins of Islamic thought and practice reveal that the one God which is worshipped by Jews and Christians alike is the same God who is worshipped by Moslems. The influence which Jews and Christians had upon the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) is incontrovertable as is evidenced by reading through the many Surahs of the Qur’an.
It is the Catholic Christian position that unaided by the light of divine revelation, human beings can have a rudimentary knowledge of God. It is also clear that the influence upon Mohammed (peace be on him) of theological distortions which were practiced and presented to him by Christians with whom he had frequent contact served to define his understanding of the Christian faith. One cannot blame the Prophet for reaching the conclusions that he did concerning Christians given the example with which he had been provided by them.
In other words, the Prophet Mohammed (peace be on him) did not in tend to establish an entirely different religious system. He was sincerely seeking truth as he understood and interpreted it, unaided by the guidance and full counsel of the deposit of faith entrusted by Christ Jesus to the Magisterium through the Apostles.
While we are not expected to become relativists and place all religious belief systems on an equivalent theological authoratatve plane, we are called to love and respect others, even if their belief systems have points of variance with our own. It is my hope that there will be many Moslems of good will, who sincerely sought the Truth for its own sake, who will join together with those of us who wholeheartedly follow Christ, at the heavenly banquet in the New Jerusalem.
However, a careful study of the development and origins of Islamic thought and practice reveal that the one God which is worshipped by Jews and Christians alike is the same God who is worshipped by Moslems. The influence which Jews and Christians had upon the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) is incontrovertable as is evidenced by reading through the many Surahs of the Qur’an.
It is the Catholic Christian position that unaided by the light of divine revelation, human beings can have a rudimentary knowledge of God. It is also clear that the influence upon Mohammed (peace be on him) of theological distortions which were practiced and presented to him by Christians with whom he had frequent contact served to define his understanding of the Christian faith. One cannot blame the Prophet for reaching the conclusions that he did concerning Christians given the example with which he had been provided by them.
In other words, the Prophet Mohammed (peace be on him) did not in tend to establish an entirely different religious system. He was sincerely seeking truth as he understood and interpreted it, unaided by the guidance and full counsel of the deposit of faith entrusted by Christ Jesus to the Magisterium through the Apostles.
While we are not expected to become relativists and place all religious belief systems on an equivalent theological authoratatve plane, we are called to love and respect others, even if their belief systems have points of variance with our own. It is my hope that there will be many Moslems of good will, who sincerely sought the Truth for its own sake, who will join together with those of us who wholeheartedly follow Christ, at the heavenly banquet in the New Jerusalem.
C
Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Wow!!!
You’ve certainly misunderstood the Catholic position on this in a BIG way!!!In Christ,
Nancy
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LuigiColetta
Guest
I am quite amazed about people who are afraid in finding out that Jesus might save someone that in their life time were not followers of Christ himself. Really! Yes, it is true that nobody will be saved if not THROUGH Jesus! There is NO Salvation outside of Jesus. Jesus holds the ultimate key of salvation, HE is the JUST Judge!!! We are supposed to preach the Good news of Jesus.
If Jesus during judgement says to somebody that didn’t believe…I gave you all that you needed to HEAR the Gospel and take it to your heart and you still didn’t believe…I never knew you!!!
BUT!!!
If we preach the good news, and the person doesn’t believe and Jesus during judgement says to this person…Many people preached the Good News to you, but you didn’t find it to be the truth because of the condition of your heart caused by (this guy and this thing and that incident) but you tried to do what was pleasing to God your whole entire life…I tell you that you needed to believe in me and your life would have been more pleasing to me, but I knew you all along, and yet you didn’t know it was I. Come to me my child, I love you and I find you to be worthy to remain in me, as I am in the Father for eternity…
Jesus is Lord, He judges as He knows…He will judge with His elect, but His elect will be totally ONE with Him and will know the full truth that Jesus knows about the condition of ones heart during Judgement…
Does all this mean that we should stop preaching the Gospel??? No way Hose!!! If God gave us an oportunity to preach, then we better preach, not just the salvation of the one that we preach is in stake, but our salvation as well. God expects much more from who He has given much!!!
Thank goodness that Jesus is the judge and noone else…He is the Just Judge, who knows our Heart and our whole entire life!!!
May the Peace of Jesus (not that the World gives) be with you all,
Your brother,
Luigi
If Jesus during judgement says to somebody that didn’t believe…I gave you all that you needed to HEAR the Gospel and take it to your heart and you still didn’t believe…I never knew you!!!
BUT!!!
If we preach the good news, and the person doesn’t believe and Jesus during judgement says to this person…Many people preached the Good News to you, but you didn’t find it to be the truth because of the condition of your heart caused by (this guy and this thing and that incident) but you tried to do what was pleasing to God your whole entire life…I tell you that you needed to believe in me and your life would have been more pleasing to me, but I knew you all along, and yet you didn’t know it was I. Come to me my child, I love you and I find you to be worthy to remain in me, as I am in the Father for eternity…
Jesus is Lord, He judges as He knows…He will judge with His elect, but His elect will be totally ONE with Him and will know the full truth that Jesus knows about the condition of ones heart during Judgement…
Does all this mean that we should stop preaching the Gospel??? No way Hose!!! If God gave us an oportunity to preach, then we better preach, not just the salvation of the one that we preach is in stake, but our salvation as well. God expects much more from who He has given much!!!
Thank goodness that Jesus is the judge and noone else…He is the Just Judge, who knows our Heart and our whole entire life!!!
May the Peace of Jesus (not that the World gives) be with you all,
Your brother,
Luigi
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Darrel
Guest
No offense meant but the above quote is not making sense to me. Please clarify.
Christ revealed himself yes. Men chose to do many evil things just as he did before Christ revealed himself. I’m still not seeing your main point.
The Church is saying that God will decide who is acceptable to him. A little more clarification would be helpful to understanding what your issue is. I will say however that the Church is chock full of human error. I’m not here for the human error of the Catholic church past present and future. I’m here for God who literaly resides in the Eucharist. I dont attach him to any human error.
-D
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