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truetofaith
Guest
Don’t be too “appalled”…people drink too much & do stupid things, Christian or not! Hopefully they will learn from this & change.
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truetofaith
Guest
I can’t believe how many women on here are saying they wouldn’t want to stay with their husbands anymore because of one drunken mistake.
I guess all the good years don’t mean anything to them.
This incident can be forgiven, behavior changed and lesson learned by all involved!
I guess all the good years don’t mean anything to them.
This incident can be forgiven, behavior changed and lesson learned by all involved!
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Allegra
Guest
Actually, only one person said that. What most people said was that they would have a hard time trusting their spouse after such an incident and it would be very harmful to their relationship. “Drunken mistakes” have consequences. Are you going to tell the children of a woman who was killed by a drink driver that it was just a “drunken mistake”? Of course not. That being said, if you read the thread, you will note that most of the mistrust and hurt comes not from what the husband initially did, but his reaction the next day, and that of his cohorts, which can no longer be blamed on drunkenness.
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hydin
Guest
I would want Christ to forgive me for the mistake her husband made if I had done it. I am told by Jesus to forgive that sin. “as we forgive those who trespass against us”?? The first reaction she got from him was after he got home, not the next day and he was still drunk. “When he got home, he was so incredibly drunk. I told him what had happened and how it made me feel, and he laughed. I went from being irritated to being downright angry. He said that the other guy just took his phone and was having fun.” Not excusing his behavior at all but he was still in an altered state, it was not the next day when he was sober. I read the thread. Evidently he apologized before she to went to the festival, without him “Today I went with our kids up to the spring festival so they could play the games.” and later said "And while my husband has apologized, after all of the men coming up to me today I feel like I want a whole additional apology on top of it! " The husband was even there. She wanted another apology from him. If you are going to call someone out for not reading a thread you might want to reread it yourself to make sure you have the facts correct. He wasn’t even at a men’s group meeting, he was helping out at the festival bingo with other men FROM the men’s group. Many responses have changed the facts to make it seem much worse. The poster did nothing to cause this.
If you read what she posted and then read the posts by those quoting Bible verses and expanding the story to include drunk driving, sexual harassment and even making up a connection between these men and his income. Those who did this, to be consistent should be headed to confession for their actions… gossip, telling stories about others that they do not know as true to make them seem worse… Even the poster admits that “every time I bring it up… " If he has apologizes and she repeatedly brings it up, she is not accepting his apology… each time… that is embarrassing him until she gets what she feels is the proper apology… repeatedly. That is not good for a marriage. There is more here than we know, she does say " There is so much more bubbling under the surface than I presented in my original post, and I’m feeling a little guilty about that.” so there is more than we know and to guess is silly. Also remember we are hearing her truth about the situation only. She is not lying but in most cases the total truth is somewhere in the middle of the two positions, that is always the case with two humans. Too many on this thread have convicted this man and embellished the story with additional possibilities , which others have expanded even more… it is almost laughable, except it involves a woman who is hurt… I doubt she enjoys her story and her husband being the target of such innuendo. It serves no purpose in solving her frustrations. It also is uncalled for.
That all being said here is a story about forgiveness that we all can learn from…
As far as the children of the woman killed by a drunk driver, If I were the spouse I believe I would have to forgive the drunk. If it were the first time that person ever drank, mixed medicine with alcohol or drove drunk what would you call it? deliberate murder? Here is a story about just such a women. It is humbling, but I am guessing it made Jesus smile…matthewwest.com/post_updates/forgiveness-the-rest-of-the-story/
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truetofaith
Guest
This is not to be compared with a drunk driver, killing.
Yes, I’ve read the thread & am tired of all the over reacting…time to watch a good TCM movie!
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kptrs
Guest
Yeah.
What the husband did is not good, and I would put it in the serious category as far as marital issues go. But it’s not fair to compare what he did to drunk driving and killing people. Especially when we know this man has depression. If he saw some of these responses, odds are his illness would take a significant turn for the worst.
The issue is quite simple: he hurt his wife, he hasn’t given a satisfactory apology (by invalidating her feelings), and he needs to take responsibility for what he did. THAT’S IT. Nobody died, nobody killed anybody, everybody’s good.
I definitely agree it’s best to address something like this in a private message.
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EasterJoy
Guest
When the OP reported that everyone at the event was able to get home on foot, I think the question was settled that the alcohol use that lead to this indiscretion had not been allowed to put anyone in physical danger. It was a possibility, but she gave assurance that this did not happen. These guys made some foolish choices, but they did not give common sense total and absolute leave altogether.
The question is whether the men involved realize that the target of their prank has a good reason to feel deeply offended and whether they realize that the parish has good reason to expect the men of the parish to avoid this kind of “humor” as altogether inappropriate. When St. Paul warned the Ephesians that “obscenity or silly or suggestive talk” was out of place among the holy ones (Eph 5:3-4), it was exactly this kind of joking around that he was talking about. It is as old as the hills, but it needs to be rejected in favor of sources of mirth that are more fitting.
St. Paul got very stern about this topic, too:
Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient. So do not be associated with them. (Eph. 5:5-7). This is a “been there, done that” question, and the question lands squarely against letting this happen again. Once that is done, let it go.
I think the best thing to do is to go to her pastor, explain the entire situation, and ask him what to do. This is happening under his watch, and it would be wise to allow it to be handled in his way. Take what comes and then let it go. As for telling the wives, when I imagine myself in this situation, I know all the wives and they all know me. I know the lay of the land in my parish, too. If the OP does not feel she’s in a similar situation, she should get guidance from her own pastor or perhaps, if she needs some (name removed by moderator)ut from another woman, then perhaps from women in the parish she knows to be exceptionally discreet and level-headed. Those who have warned that this is a minefield, however, do make a good point. If a situation is going to bring out an unexpected chain of events, this would be the kind to do it.
As for the husband, I think it reasonable to have him go with her to the pastor at some point, so that his discretion can be handled in a pastoral way that is beyond his wife’s reach, being right in the center of the matter as she is. She should not stuff this and just hope her hurt feelings will go away. That isn’t going to happen. It may be, however, that she may, with the pastor’s help, see her way clear to resolving the matter in her heart in a way that will not give her the consolation of a direct apology from anyone but her husband but will give her the satisfaction of knowing the men’s group will be better-supervised in the future by heads wise enough not to let this kind of thing happen again. That is the main thing.
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kptrs
Guest
Yes, I agree with everything you said here. My post was targeted at those who were still bringing up drunk driving and mothers of young children getting killed by drunk driving, etc. even after the OP said no one had driven drunk. I felt like all the drunk driving talk was a little much.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Yes. When you’re dealing with a situation someone believes you are blowing out of proportion, it is important to keep it in proportion if you’re going to bring them around.
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Meximo
Guest
Woah! I would be livid. Just my husband coming home drunk would be enough to get me angry. I don’t mind an alcohol beverage and neither does my husband, but to get drunk, that’s not healthy. I would go to the pastor immediately. I’m all for humor, but I know my husband would be upset if anyone spoke to me(or texted) in any disparaging way. On a slightly different note, cellphones are so personal (and expensive) that I know my husband and I don’t let ours out of our sight.More than anything, this is just a rant.
Yesterday evening, my husband was volunteering for our Church’s spring festival by helping out with bingo. Other guys from the Men’s Club were helping, too. He said he would be home around 10-10:30. He wasn’t home at that time, but I didn’t worry–I just went to bed on my own. I’ve got small kids. Mornings come very early.
Around 11:30, I got a hugely suggestive text from him. Several texts, actually. Saying things like, when he gets home I’d better run, that he’s ready to go and I need to be ready and waiting, and that he’s going to make me scream and sing. I got the feeling it wasn’t him because he just… it didn’t seem like him. Turns out, another man from men’s club was texting me as my husband. I was not happy about this. When he got home, he was so incredibly drunk. I told him what had happened and how it made me feel, and he laughed. I went from being irritated to being downright angry. He said that the other guy just took his phone and was having fun. I think it’s gross that anybody other than my husband put me in that context. I’m irritated that it got me out of bed for foolery. Well…
Today I went with our kids up to the spring festival so they could play the games. No lie, 5 different men from Men’s Club came up to me at different times this afternoon and said things like, “So, how’d you like those texts??” One actually came up to me and said that he thinks I’m owed an apology. But the fact is, ALL of the men knew what had happened. And what’s even worse, they told me how it happened. My husband OFFERED for them to do it. He gave over his phone declaring “Who wants to text my wife??”
I’m livid. I’m embarrassed. I’m… if I go by the reactions of the men from the club, I’m overreacting. But I don’t appreciate being teh subject of a dirty joke. Poke fun at me all you want, and I can take it AND dish it. But bedroom jokes? Offering for other men to try to make me blush? I feel dirty. Yucky. And while my husband has apologized, after all of the men coming up to me today I feel like I want a whole additional apology on top of it!
I’ve been praying the Rosary a lot more lately, and I happen to be in the middle of a novena for grace. I’m trying to handle the whole situation at church gracefully, but I honestly and genuinely feel disgraced and embarrassed.
I hope by now you have had some resolution.
Pax,
Meximo
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Allegra
Guest
My bringing up the example of a drunk driving incident was not to insinuate that the OP’s husband was drunk driving, or that what he did was as bad as killing someone, or that being drunk makes someone unforgiveable. It was to point out that drunken behavior has sober consequences. When you hurt someone, whether by hitting them with your car or allowing your friends to humiliate them, you don’t get to call it a “drunken mistake” and have the consequences go away. The hypothetical mother is still dead the next morning and the real wife is still embarrassed and not as likely to trust her husband. That doesn’t imply that the person is unforgivable, it simply means that the consequences of his actions remain.
The OP should try to forgive her husband and it sounds like she is attempting to do so. That doesn’t mean that her hurt and her embarrassment in front of her Parish community has suddenly gone away. Whether she is able to instantly forgive him or not, the husband should still feel an obligation to help make it right and that means being honest about what he did, and showing sympathy for the continued embarrassment that his wife may face because of his actions, as well as taking steps to make sure that sort of thing doesn’t happen again.
The OP’s husband’s initial apology came with a lie and omission. (He did not disclose that he gave the phone to the other men and encouraged them to text her.) She also suffered additional humiliation when the other men involved attempted to joke with her about it. When she brought that up to her husband, he dismissed her feelings and defended his friends instead of her. That’s why she feels his apology was not genuine. Had he told the truth initially and accepted the further consequences of his actions, I suspect that the OP would have been more apt to accept his apology.
I don’t really see what difference it makes if the behavior happened at a scheduled men’s group meeting or a parish event at which the men’s group was volunteering? I don’t see how it would make the actions better or worse either way. If anything, the meeting would at least be private between the men in the group where the BINGO hall is in the view and earshot of other members of the parish.
While it’s true that there are two sides to every story, when a poster asks for advice, we generally presume that the poster is being truthful about their situation. Of course, if they aren’t they should realize that the advice they’re getting is based on what they said happened and not what actually happened.
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TK421
Guest
@ Ophelia:
I don’t think things like this happen out of the blue. I don’t think a man is capable of being mature and wise in one instant, and in another instant, say that you’re overreacting because he let his friends at a drunken get-together text sexual vulgarities to you. There’s too big of a disparity there. So, although it’s not happy news, I think you should approach this as a long-term problem, not as a sin that just happened and is now gone.
Nor, unfortunately, do I think you can realistically get the kind of apology out of him that you deserve, and here is the reason why: if your husband lacked the spiritual maturity, that he was willing to let his buddies text sexual vulgarities to you like a pack of hormone-raging 16-year-olds, then I think it follows, that he will also lack the necessary spiritual maturity to offer you the kind of apology that you deserve. Does that make sense?
Still, a small consolation and a good ray of hope, is that it seems that he was nonetheless sorry that he upset you - even if he’s blind to understand why you were so hurt - and he offered you some level of apology, and for the moment, I don’t think he’s capable of giving you more than that. Not at the moment. He needs growth. He needs understanding. Now it falls to figure out how you can help with that. Of course, prayer is essential before anything else.
Those are my thoughts. I think a private conversation with a spiritual director/marriage counselor would be helpful for you, to get some more direction on how to start with this. It is important that you maintain self-control, even if your instincts are telling you to keelhaul him. Two people trapped in a river can’t pull each other out. A person has to have one foot on solid ground and another foot in the water. That needs to be you. It’s not an option. If you lose control, nothing good will come out of it. The situation will worsen; 100% certainty.
I don’t think things like this happen out of the blue. I don’t think a man is capable of being mature and wise in one instant, and in another instant, say that you’re overreacting because he let his friends at a drunken get-together text sexual vulgarities to you. There’s too big of a disparity there. So, although it’s not happy news, I think you should approach this as a long-term problem, not as a sin that just happened and is now gone.
Nor, unfortunately, do I think you can realistically get the kind of apology out of him that you deserve, and here is the reason why: if your husband lacked the spiritual maturity, that he was willing to let his buddies text sexual vulgarities to you like a pack of hormone-raging 16-year-olds, then I think it follows, that he will also lack the necessary spiritual maturity to offer you the kind of apology that you deserve. Does that make sense?
Still, a small consolation and a good ray of hope, is that it seems that he was nonetheless sorry that he upset you - even if he’s blind to understand why you were so hurt - and he offered you some level of apology, and for the moment, I don’t think he’s capable of giving you more than that. Not at the moment. He needs growth. He needs understanding. Now it falls to figure out how you can help with that. Of course, prayer is essential before anything else.
Those are my thoughts. I think a private conversation with a spiritual director/marriage counselor would be helpful for you, to get some more direction on how to start with this. It is important that you maintain self-control, even if your instincts are telling you to keelhaul him. Two people trapped in a river can’t pull each other out. A person has to have one foot on solid ground and another foot in the water. That needs to be you. It’s not an option. If you lose control, nothing good will come out of it. The situation will worsen; 100% certainty.
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LSK
Guest
I would take this to the priest and let him deal with that men’s club. I would take it to their chapter president. This is violence - sexual violence - and for CATHOLIC men to do this?
I am angry for you.
I am angry for you.
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nodito
Guest
I probably wouldn’t call it “violence,” but it was definitely sexual harrassment.
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EasterJoy
Guest
If there was confession, repentance, or a firm purpose of amendment, this would be water under the bridge. The OP simply wants recognition that this was not OK from everyone involved.
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
Ok…so maybe my husband didn’t punch me in the face, but he definitely cursed at me.
There is no reason to blow things out of proportion and risk causing even more harm to her marriage and her church community. She was the subject of a juvenile and hurtful prank. She wasn’t the victim of sexual violence.
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hydin
Guest
Should we realize that if we create false details we are not helping her at all?
" Too many on this thread have convicted this man and embellished the story with additional possibilities , which others have expanded even more… it is almost laughable, except it involves a woman who is hurt… I doubt she enjoys her story and her husband being the target of such innuendo. It serves no purpose in solving her frustrations. It also is uncalled for." --That was the purpose of my post. You changed her anger at a response when he got home to one the next day. “That being said, if you read the thread, you will note that most of the mistrust and hurt comes not from what the husband initially did, but his reaction the next day, and that of his cohorts, which can no longer be blamed on drunkenness.” The only thing the husband did the next day happened BEFORE she saw the men, he apologized (read her post), she felt she was due another apology… Did he even know that? We do not know if she told him what she “felt”.
Your advice said “First of all, I think it goes without saying that your husband’s time in “men’s group” is at an end.” Now you know that it was not at the men’s club so the advice was off base unless suggest he not attend church wide functions. It only matters if you care about the actual circumstance that created the drunkenness rather than targeting the “Men’s group” which included an indictment of their purpose. Here is your statement -“Secondly, I would be very tempted to show those texts to the pastor, so he can see the sort of activities the parish is sponsoring. (I’m assuming this group is a parish-sponsored group that is advertised as a good spiritual opportunity for the men of the parish.)”
You brought up sexual harassment and that any employer would fire them… It was a serious matter! Of course it was your opinion, not that of the experts on the subject… the EEOC who says “Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision”. One time occurrence? simple teasing (you don’t get to define that by the way, it is their state of mind that defines it… as misplaced as it may have been… if it happens once… not sexual harassment.
This is my point to all, why not limit the “advice” to the actual things that happened? This poor woman is facing a very difficult time. She came for help on a Catholic site. Most of the things posted here added details to the story she never gave then gave advice based on those details. She is no longer posting and I don’t blame her. Catholic posters have suggested a long list of "solutions’ that do not follow the Catechism, Canon Law or what common sense based on an educated Catholic conscience would lead them to suggest. Would a Priest have suggested those things? Does telling a wounded spouse to do these things lead her to a better marriage?
I do not in any way excuse her husband from anything. If there is to be healing it isn’t going to come by her continuing to bring the incident up (maybe in a couple of weeks when things have calmed down and he is not as defensive) to a depressed man? He suddenly isn’t gong to gain the self confidence to handle the situation as it should be handled… it is an illness, not a choice he is making (to be depressed). As you mention concerning your drunk driver, is continuing to humiliate this man by making up details about the situation then giving solutions to those amplifications helpful? Evidently not or she would be posting…
Of course the great thing about advice is you never have to take it. I hope she saw through these recreations of history and sought help where her situation would be addressed.
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Allegra
Guest
I haven’t made up anything or rewritten history. I never said they were at a men’s club meeting. The OP stated that the members of the men’s club were volunteering at a parish event, which is what I described.
My advice is relevant either way though. It doesn’t matter if the OP’s husband got in trouble at a men’s club meeting, or with members of the men’s club at a parish event, or with members of the men’s club at a party at someone’s house, or at the community swimming pool, or anywhere else. The problem isn’t the where, it’s the who. My advice was that he needed to quit interacting with these men because it is clear that they are not good for him. He is responsible for what he did, but one is influenced by the company they keep and if the company is a temptation for someone to act out, they should avoid said company.
The OP said that her family was involved with the parish, so I suspect that the OP’s husband has attended any number of parish events and not committed embarrassing, sexual pranks against his wife. However, the fact that this prank was committed at a parish event by the members of the men’s group who were volunteering and representing the parish does need to be brought to the pastor. If it had happened somewhere else, when the men were not acting as volunteers for the parish, then I would agree that it wouldn’t be necessary to involve the pastor, but I would still recommend that the husband not spend time with the same men, especially if drinking if going on.
I can’t speak for the advice of other posters, but the advice I offered would definitely help the OP and her husband. The husband should find better company to spend his time with and avoid the men who participated in humiliating his wife. This would go a long way with repairing the damage done to the trust in their relationship.
This incident should be counted in the list of the OP’s husbands problems with alcohol. If such incidents create a pattern, treatment and guidance should be sought.
The incident should be brought to the attention of the pastor and it should be made clear to the men’s club and to all parish volunteers that sexual harassment (or sexual “teasing” if you prefer) will not be tolerated at any parish event. This would hopefully ensure that the “teasing” does not continue and that no one else is victimized.
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