I am embarrassed, and I am angry

[The_Old_Maid]

Originally posted by TOM:

“… pastor’s wife …”

Originally posted by various and paraphrased by TOM:

“… {aiee! the vapors, the vapors! fetch the pearls that they may be clutched} …”

Relax, all. It is actually known upon the earth that Catholic priests do not marry.

[Aside: fun fact, as with Peter before them, if a married pastor joins Catholicism, he is not required to put away either his wife or his ministry. Unless, of course, the pastor is a {gasp} wimmin! Then it’s strictly keep-the-spouse-and-naught-else.]

What I meant was what EasterJoy mentioned a few posts later. I was saying what a pity it is that the OP doesn’t have a woman with ties to the pastor who can discreetly advise him, *“Someone would like to speak with you but is hesitant due to [her temperament, your temperament, time constraints, fear of blowback, etc.].” *

I do think it will come out eventually, if not in the correct way, then by a participant blabbing and snickering and being overheard. After all, if “did not one of you have the sense to know better?” at the time, it’s unlikely they’ll grow a brain now.

 

[EasterJoy]

Relax, all. It is actually known upon the earth that Catholic priests do not marry.

[Aside: fun fact, as with Peter before them, if a married pastor joins Catholicism, he is not required to put away either his wife or his ministry. Unless, of course, the pastor is a {gasp} wimmin! Then it’s strictly keep-the-spouse-and-naught-else.]

What I meant was what EasterJoy mentioned a few posts later. I was saying what a pity it is that the OP doesn’t have a woman with ties to the pastor who can discreetly advise him, *“Someone would like to speak with you but is hesitant due to [her temperament, your temperament, time constraints, fear of blowback, etc.].” *

I do think it will come out eventually, if not in the correct way, then by a participant blabbing and snickering and being overheard. After all, if “did not one of you have the sense to know better?” at the time, it’s unlikely they’ll grow a brain now.

Well, actually, sometimes a dispensation is granted and a currently-married man is ordained to the priesthood. Since celibacy in the priesthood is a discipline and not an ontologically-inescapable necessity, it is possible and occasionally is allowed for a priest to have a wife. It is so rare that it not practical to give any advice predicated on a priest having a wife, though.

More to the point, however, I know some wives of deacons, and this is a situation that every one of them would encourage their fellow parishioner to take to their pastor directly. They know better than to insert themselves where their presence is not required! There are usually laypeople in a typical parish who are capable of this kind of discrete direction, for that matter, but the trick can be in correctly identifying them. It is not always easy to spot those with the untrained tongues.

Yes, you have to wonder when someone is going to ask, “I suppose you’re proud of that? Good grief, you guys have a sense of humor that would embarrass a dog! You SO owe her an apology! If you’d have done it to me/my wife, I’d have come after you but good. You all deserved to be spanked and sent to bed without supper, like little naughty boys.” Not that I literally think these fellows are best treated as if they were juvenile delinquents, but they are being so brazen in their self-congratulation that some exchange like this almost has to happen.

 

[kptrs]

I hope we hear from Ophelia soon. I hope it’s going okay with her husband.

 

[MamaJewel]

I would take this to the priest and let him deal with that men’s club. I would take it to their chapter president. This is violence - sexual violence - and for CATHOLIC men to do this?

I am angry for you.

I am angry for her, too. And yes, according to the CDC, she was a victim of sexual violence.

What pains me here, is reading the plethora of responses that minimize the event, which is truly serious and unacceptable from Catholic men.

 

[MamaJewel]

Even “CATHOLIC men” commit sin. That’s why they have Confession!

And when we confess, we have “penance” in which we make a sincere effort to correct the damage we’ve done (as long as it will not put us in harm’s way).

We certainly aren’t allowed to to say “I’ve gone to confession. I have no further obligations” and leave those we have treated unjustly to clean up our mess.

What these men did was unwanted and traumatizing to the OP. Her anger is justified.

 

[Allegra]

Well, actually, sometimes a dispensation is granted and a currently-married man is ordained to the priesthood. Since celibacy in the priesthood is a discipline and not an ontologically-inescapable necessity, it is possible and occasionally is allowed for a priest to have a wife. It is so rare that it not practical to give any advice predicated on a priest having a wife, though.

More to the point, however, I know some wives of deacons, and this is a situation that every one of them would encourage their fellow parishioner to take to their pastor directly. They know better than to insert themselves where their presence is not required! There are usually laypeople in a typical parish who are capable of this kind of discrete direction, for that matter, but the trick can be in correctly identifying them. It is not always easy to spot those with the untrained tongues.

Yes, you have to wonder when someone is going to ask, “I suppose you’re proud of that? Good grief, you guys have a sense of humor that would embarrass a dog! You SO owe her an apology! If you’d have done it to me/my wife, I’d have come after you but good. You all deserved to be spanked and sent to bed without supper, like little naughty boys.” Not that I literally think these fellows are best treated as if they were juvenile delinquents, but they are being so brazen in their self-congratulation that some exchange like this almost has to happen.

It sounds like at least one of them realizes that their behavior was inappropriate. Maybe such a statement has already been made? If not, hopefully it will be!

 

[EasterJoy]

It sounds like at least one of them realizes that their behavior was inappropriate. Maybe such a statement has already been made? If not, hopefully it will be!

I have to hope that one guy gets the ball rolling and makes this right. This could still be taken care of in a low-key way if only one of the guys steps up and does this. All the OP wants, after all, is to know for certain that these guys are going to see the light about avoiding this kind of “humor” in the future. They probably didn’t mean anything by this bone-headed stunt and have no idea how upsetting she found it. I doubt they saw it as anything sexual so much as trying to masquerade as someone else.

 

[hydin]

The purpose of informing the priest would be to let him know the behavior that’s going on under the guise of a Catholic men’s group in his parish. If you lived across the street from the parish and these same drunken goons egged your car, would it be vindictive and childish to inform the pastor? I don’t think so. The OP has already taken her husband to task for what he’s done, however, the group should be held responsible for their part in it. I would think that a pastor would want to know if an approved parish group was using their time together to sexually harass another member of the parish.

The purpose of telling the other wives would be to let them know what their husbands are actually doing when they are supposed to be conducting BINGO games. The only problem with this is that it is likely to cause friction in their marriages and the OP really doesn’t know which men were involved in this stunt anyway. I can see some really bad unintended outcomes of telling the wives. I think the pastor is the correct person to speak to.

The only complaint the OP can file with the police is against her own husband, since she doesn’t have any evidence other than hearsay as to how the other men got home and how drunk they were. So if she wants to file a report on her own husband… well, that’s on her. She could file a report about the sexual harassment, but again, I don’t see how without incriminating her husband as well.

You may want to let the admins know that someone is editing your posts without your knowledge… above they added info about drunk driving, things done under the guise of the men’s group (the group, not the men), and sexual harassment, since in your last post you insisted you did not add any details she did not provide.

 

[EasterJoy]

You may want to let the admins know that someone is editing your posts without your knowledge… above they added info about drunk driving, things done under the guise of the men’s group (the group, not the men), and sexual harassment, since in your last post you insisted you did not add any details she did not provide.

There was an early question about drunk driving. The OP clarified that the men lived within walking distance of their meeting spot, but this had not been clear in the opening post. There was a comment that doing the same thing to a co-worker would be considered sexual harrassment–not because someone was pressing charges, but because it is unbelievable that anyone in this day and age would think this behavior is acceptable.

By “this behavior,” keep in mind that the OP was mortified to be approached by man after man about this matter the next day, in public, when they were all ostensibly sober. Had this been something that they’d done in private and been too ashamed to have apologized to her about the next day, this would be a very different matter. They do not seem to understand that they did a thing wrong, either in the texts or in laughing over it at her expense the next day. That needs to be put right. I hope you understand how upsetting it would be for her in the future if that does not happen and she has to live in her parish with the idea that this might be repeated because she did not bring that point home. It doesn’t have to be done in a public way or in a way that calls more attention to the matter–far from it, and for her sake, too!!–but it does need to be done.

 

[truetofaith]

And when we confess, we have “penance” in which we make a sincere effort to correct the damage we’ve done (as long as it will not put us in harm’s way).

We certainly aren’t allowed to to say “I’ve gone to confession. I have no further obligations” and leave those we have treated unjustly to clean up our mess.

What these men did was unwanted and traumatizing to the OP. Her anger is justified.

I did make it clear in earlier posts you may not have seen, …that all of them, husband included must apologize and CHANGE THEIR EVIL WAYS!

 

[EasterJoy]

I did make it clear in earlier posts you may not have seen, …that all of them, husband included must apologize and CHANGE THEIR EVIL WAYS!

Let us be clear, here, however. In terms of effect, they humiliated her and upset her greatly. In terms of intention, it is the most likely that these fellows are more guilty of callousness than anything else. It is not likely that they were really fantasizing about anything sexual with the OP. It is not likely that they wanted to upset her. They were trying to pose as her husband not to seduce her–who can imagine that anyone, Catholic or not, is that much of an idiot?–but in a way that would puzzle and confuse her, or perhaps fool her for a few moments. Nobody was trying to get her to meet them at her front door in a negligee. She’ll do well to keep the “listen, guys, I get that you didn’t intend…” part in her explanation, or she is going to run into a brick wall of defensiveness. Obscene jokes are from the Evil One in a sly way to which contemporary society is essentially oblivious, but she is going to get nowhere with “your ways are EVIL, EVIL, EVIL!!”

I would bet that the joke was not intended to come out of her humiliation, but her sense of confusion. They just *did not think *about how upsetting this might be from her perspective, let alone that she would find it humiliating, or they discounted her feelings as “incorrect” feelings because it was not the feeling they were aiming for. They thought that when she realized they meant no harm she would not feel upset.

They thought wrong, and they ought to realize the relative magnitude of their miscalculation. Having realized that, they need to give her assurance that they meant her no harm nor any disrespect and that they are going to make certain they don’t make a similar mistake in the future with anyone else’s feelings in particular and with even marginally obscene humor in general. That is out of place among the holy ones, and they need to cut that out.

 

[underacloud]

They just *did not think *about how upsetting this might be from her perspective, let alone that she would find it humiliating

Right.

I would guess they thought they were joining in on a game played between husband and wife, and honestly thought it would be received in good humour.

They thought wrong, and they ought to realize the relative magnitude of their miscalculation. Having realized that, they need to give her assurance that they meant her no harm nor any disrespect and that they are going to make certain they don’t make a similar mistake in the future with anyone else’s feelings in particular and with even marginally obscene humor in general. That is out of place among the holy ones, and they need to cut that out.

Yes, they were wrong. It’s not quite clear though, from the OP’s account of what happened, exactly how they responded the next day when she told them how she felt about it. We do know that they corrected her on what happened with regard to the husband handing over his phone and encouraging it. This fact in itself suggests that they acknowledged her feelings and wanted to explain themselves to some degree. And we know following this that the OP was even more angry towards her husband, suggesting that she accepted - to a degree - the explanation offered from the other men and transferred her anger from them back to the main source of the issue. They may well have assured her that they meant no harm. We don’t know either way whether the men apologised for their role in it; and it may even be that they feel wronged by the husband in this matter too.

 

[truetofaith]

Let us be clear, here, however. In terms of effect, they humiliated her and upset her greatly. In terms of intention, it is the most likely that these fellows are more guilty of callousness than anything else. It is not likely that they were really fantasizing about anything sexual with the OP. It is not likely that they wanted to upset her. They were trying to pose as her husband not to seduce her–who can imagine that anyone, Catholic or not, is that much of an idiot?–but in a way that would puzzle and confuse her, or perhaps fool her for a few moments. Nobody was trying to get her to meet them at her front door in a negligee. She’ll do well to keep the “listen, guys, I get that you didn’t intend…” part in her explanation, or she is going to run into a brick wall of defensiveness. Obscene jokes are from the Evil One in a sly way to which contemporary society is essentially oblivious, but she is going to get nowhere with “your ways are EVIL, EVIL, EVIL!!”

I would bet that the joke was not intended to come out of her humiliation, but her sense of confusion. They just *did not think *about how upsetting this might be from her perspective, let alone that she would find it humiliating, or they discounted her feelings as “incorrect” feelings because it was not the feeling they were aiming for. They thought that when she realized they meant no harm she would not feel upset.

They thought wrong, and they ought to realize the relative magnitude of their miscalculation. Having realized that, they need to give her assurance that they meant her no harm nor any disrespect and that they are going to make certain they don’t make a similar mistake in the future with anyone else’s feelings in particular and with even marginally obscene humor in general. That is out of place among the holy ones, and they need to cut that out.

Thanks, GOT IT !

 

[truetofaith]

I hope we hear from Ophelia soon. I hope it’s going okay with her husband.

Ophelia got just as bored with this topic as I did…& probably is changing her husband’s evil ways!

I’m tired of beating a dead horse. :banghead:

 

[WillyAL]

Ophelia got just as bored with this topic as I did…

Or recoiled in horror at the nuttiness her OP inspired.

 

[truetofaith]

Or recoiled in horror at the nuttiness her OP inspired.

 

[taben]

Wow. Really…wow.

Sorry, but, how old is your husband? Because honestly this sounds like something a bunch of teenagers would do.

Agreed…and how old are the other ‘MEN’ in the Men’s Group? I don’t think you are overreacting. I would be inclined to go see a Priest with hubby and talk about this. I would further consider asking him to leave the Men’s Group if this is the kind of fun they have…drinking, se*xual inappropriate conversations and actions, etc.

ONE POSITIVE: This could open the door to counseling, looking for appropriate outings and friendships, etc. for you and him. Maybe this happened to help address issues you all did not know were there?

T

 

[truetofaith]

Two more …and this dead horse will have been beaten in 200 posts!

 

[Neal76]

Two more …and this dead horse will have been beaten in 200 posts!

Done:thumbsup:

 

[1990Domer]

I was not clear on what I meant about looking for a reason for his actions. I wasn’t thinking of some wild, perverted reason for him doing this. I was thinking more about what from the marriage caused his passive aggressive action of suggesting the other men do this then actually letting them do it. Again, not that it justifies his behavior but men normally do not act this way if things are just the way they want it at home. He was feeling something that caused him to want to lash out at her… knowing it would hurt her but in a way he could deny or belittle the seriousness of his actions. Unfortunately I speak on that topic as one who both experienced it and practiced it all too often. If PA was a sport both of our numbers would have been retired. Not proud of that but it is the truth. I am not that guy anymore… but I remember well how the game was played. Passive aggressive behavior is usually a response to hurt, justified or not - it makes sense to him, at the time. I encourage all to check out Alturtle.com totally free site (except if you want him to read the articles to you… do that once to get his voice…) full of wisdom presented softly so you are drawn in but not defensive. Everyone makes sense all the time. No one ever agrees with you (completely), sometimes they tell you. This is the most valuable sentence a man can learn, “what are you needing from me now?” (do you need me to just listen? to support your thoughts? or FIX IT… we guys love to fix things. Usually we jump right in… and end up in trouble (as we should).

As far as venting, needing that is certainly understandable. You need someone to vent to. Choose who it is carefully and let them know, if it is ok with them,you may vent when you get to your limit with your husband. Make sure they understand they are just hearing your side of the story. Venting or getting marriage advice from strangers or faceless posters leaves one open to hearing advice that questionable at best. Could be a hurt spouse pushing what they wish they could do/had done to their spouse… or worse, a person who just wants to stir the pot in a relationship they have no part in. Could also be some guy who thinks he has learned stuff the hard way but really has no idea what he is talking about… always do what you think is correct for your situation. When getting advice from anyone two classic reminders (I still struggle with…ugh…) 1 you do not have to take it (duh!) and 2 you do not have to tell the person giving the advice you are not gong to take it. (wisdom!!!) It is as simple as responding with “thanks, I hadn’t thought of it that way.” Take what is of value and trash the rest. If something is not working… stop trying it and do something else. Change you, that is the only person you can change. Hopefully they see you changing and it causes them to change as well. That part stinks but is true.

reminder - you are not responsible for his feelings… you can’t make him feel anything. You can’t make him happy or sad just as you can’t make him gain or lose weight. It is his choice. Ask Mary and St. Joseph to pray for you and for your husband. Ask the Holy Spirit to intercede and soften his heart. St. Joesph is the ultimate husband - married perfection and raised God… sure he had special Graces but dang, what a situation for a guy to be in. He married a pregnant woman and couldn’t tell his friends or family the true story. Died before Jesus revealed Himself…

Hydin, you seem to have a penchant for assuming many marriages are in trouble when perhaps there is a bump in the road. (Please, if that is the case with your marriage, don’t reflect it in your posts). I am sure the OP has a good marriage. Not all good marriages are happy. Also, you seem to enjoy to deem actions as passive-aggressive. This is treading on dangerous waters, as you cannot read motive, especially on a forum board. This is best left to experienced professionals.

OP, I will pray for you. I am so sorry for your pain. I will offer up my sufferings for you this evening. God bless you and your family.