I am getting interested in eastern orthodoxy

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Mass is also a term used in english for the Chadean and Maronite liturgies, as well, by those churches, not just the Roman.

Byzantine is a bit of a loaded term, because the Metropolia of Pittsbugh (Ruthenian) often identifies itself as the Byzantine Catholic Church.

The term Byzantine Catholic can legitimately be used to refer to any catholic of the 14 Byzantine Rite churches sui iuris, or the subjects of those same churches, or the parishes thereof; it replaces the term “Greek Catholic”… As far as I can tell, only for the Metropolia of Pittsburgh has the formal name been changed to include it, tho.

Almost all members of churches in the Eastern Orthodox Communion use the Byzantine Rite. (Some also use a byzantified Roman Rite…) Several non-members cadet from that communion also use the Byzantine Rite.

Also, a few vagante churches use the Byzantine Rite. One protestant church began to use it, and now is part of the Antiochian Orthodox Church.
 
Gregory_I said:
actually, ite missae est means “Go forth, it is sent.”

Ite=Go
Missae=Sent Forth
Est=It is; to be.

SO the Mass is the missae, the “Sending Forth” or “Offering” of the sacrifice of Christ to the Triune God.
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👍 correcto mundo
 
Aramis said:
Mass is also a term used in english for the Chadean and Maronite liturgies, as well, by those churches, not just the Roman.

Byzantine is a bit of a loaded term, because the Metropolia of Pittsbugh (Ruthenian) often identifies itself as the Byzantine Catholic Church.

The term Byzantine Catholic can legitimately be used to refer to any catholic of the 14 Byzantine Rite churches sui iuris, or the subjects of those same churches, or the parishes thereof; it replaces the term “Greek Catholic”… As far as I can tell, only for the Metropolia of Pittsburgh has the formal name been changed to include it, tho.

Almost all members of churches in the Eastern Orthodox Communion use the Byzantine Rite. (Some also use a byzantified Roman Rite…) Several non-members cadet from that communion also use the Byzantine Rite.

Also, a few vagante churches use the Byzantine Rite. One protestant church began to use it, and now is part of the Antiochian Orthodox Church.
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That’s what I thought, 14 rites, and its more of a generalization or broad stroke use of the term. Something like that. I wasn’t sure about the Eastern Orthodox use of the term.
 
PbloPicasso said:
That’s what I thought, 14 rites, and its more of a generalization or broad stroke use of the term.
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No. 14 Churches sui iuris, and about specific 33 forms of the divine liturgy, all using the same rite. There is more difference between the Roman EF and OF than between the Ruthenian and Melkite DL’s… heck, there’s more difference between regional uses of the Roman OF than between the Ruthenian and Melkite DL’s! (each church sui iuris has it’s own form for the DL of St Basil and the DL of St John, and several have a form of the DL of St. James… and unless you’re in a weird parish, or are ruthenian, the RDL is the furthest from what you’ll see on sunday)

(The Melkite DL is one of the most traditional of recent revisions, and the Ruthenian 2006 revisions one of the most … uh, how to put this politely… controversial and trimmed versions. One litany reduced to a priest and deacon one-line-each dialogue, another reduced to but one petition, modern almost politically correct language, etc… but there’s more variability in the Roman OF than between these two nearly polar opposite byzantine rite liturgies.)

The Roman OF can has no less than 7 points where the pastor or celebrant can mandate options… Vs Populem or ad orientam, Symbol, Psalms, prayers of the faithful, kiss of peace, sequence, gloria, EP choice, opening antiphon, dismissal, greeting, memorial acclimation, closing prayer. Some are even able to be skipped entirely at the priest’s whim, most notably, the sequence when assigned, is allowed to be omitted except for a couple feasts. The symbol for sundays and holy days is the Nicene-Constantinopolitan-Roman creed (with filioque) or the baptismal promises, or in some cases, even the apostle’s creed; for week days, any of those or omitted. The Psalm may be the psalm of the day, the psalm of the feast, or a psalm chosen for the intention; it may be sung, chanted, or spoken. Many readings in the Roman Lectionary have short and long forms; many feasts have choice of reading sets. Most of the standard texts have 3 options… some have 5 or more… plus 10+ approved EP’s…
 
Joseklos said:
The pope should not have that much power because he can be tempted to be corrupt.
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So, Jesus was will not preserve The Church as He said that He would? Why do you not believe what Jesus said?
 
Aramis said:
No. 14 Churches sui iuris, and about specific 33 forms of the divine liturgy, all using the same rite. .
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I heard someone, like Jimmy Akin or else, say that they’re not really Churches or rites, but some other term, variations of the same thing. I believe the use of these terms still confuses me and I’m trying. I’ll have to look up the term “sui iuris”. I don’t recall it. Your post facinates me and I’ve been meaning to read more on the history of the Mass/DL. One day.
Thanks.
 
Kallipolis said:
The educated Catholic knows that the Eastern Church IS the Church (His Holiness said this himself) and their Eucharist IS THE Eucharist. I have seriously considered changing traditions [not converting, since the East IS the Church] (from Roman to Greek Orthodox) but I would have to lie to the pastor of the near by Cathedral if I wanted to receive, but I do not want to do that.
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This understanding is skewed.

As a Roman Catholic, you understand the Roman Catholic Church and the other Churches in Communion with the Pope constitute the “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church”.

The Eastern Orthodox are in schism with the Catholic Church. They are literally separated from the Church. While their liturgy, Apostolic Succession, and Sacraments are valid, they are “illicit” by being out of communion with the Pope.

Therefore, to switch to an Orthodox Church from the Catholic Church is to commit a mortal sin. You aren’t switching to a different rite, as in Byzantine Catholic, you are converting religions.

If there the Roman Catholic Church is “the One Church”, you stay in the Catholic Church. Understand there are theological and religious differences with the Eastern Orthodox, and is not a matter of preference.
 
dvdjs said:
Mr. Picasso: Here are links to these ostensibly “nearly polar opposite byzantine rite liturgies”.

melkite.org/PDF/LITURGY2009.pdf
patronagechurch.com/Liturgicon_2006/Chrysostom/C-DL_2006.pdf
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I haven’t seen that book at Ruthenian Churches, the one I see is
metropolitancantorinstitute.org/servicebooks/DivineLiturgiesOrdinary.pdf

There’s a whole sub-forum about the issue on the byzcath.org forum.

As for the Melkite liturgy, my parish prints its own books to include both English and Arabic.
 
Azurestone said:
Therefore, to switch to an Orthodox Church from the Catholic Church is to commit a mortal sin. You aren’t switching to a different rite, as in Byzantine Catholic, you are converting religions.
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Wow…:rotfl:
 
chaldobyzantine said:
I haven’t seen that book at Ruthenian Churches, the one I see is
metropolitancantorinstitute.org/servicebooks/DivineLiturgiesOrdinary.pdf

As for the Melkite liturgy, my parish prints its own books to include both English and Arabic.
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I am not sure of your point. I have posted the liturgies promulgated by the Hierarchy of the respective churches.

In the case of the BCC, your link is to the “pew book”, which does not include many of the prayers of the priest and deacon. My link is to the Liturgikon, which does include these prayers.
 
I’d stick with the line from the Doors song “The West is the beeeest!” 👍 I’d also like to know what the OP’s location means when it says “It sucks out here?” that’s a troubling statement…
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
I’d stick with the line from the Doors song “The West is the beeeest!” 👍 I’d also like to know what the OP’s location means when it says “It sucks out here?” that’s a troubling statement…
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I have to put a hundred on a military location… Not somewhere desirable. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt…still rolled up in my drawer.😉
 
Aramis said:
Mass is also a term used in english for the Chadean and Maronite liturgies, as well, by those churches, not just the Roman.

Byzantine is a bit of a loaded term, because the Metropolia of Pittsbugh (Ruthenian) often identifies itself as the Byzantine Catholic Church.

The term Byzantine Catholic can legitimately be used to refer to any catholic of the 14 Byzantine Rite churches sui iuris, or the subjects of those same churches, or the parishes thereof; it replaces the term “Greek Catholic”… As far as I can tell, only for the Metropolia of Pittsburgh has the formal name been changed to include it, tho.

Almost all members of churches in the Eastern Orthodox Communion use the Byzantine Rite. (Some also use a byzantified Roman Rite…) Several non-members cadet from that communion also use the Byzantine Rite.

Also, a few vagante churches use the Byzantine Rite. One protestant church began to use it, and now is part of the Antiochian Orthodox Church.
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When I went to a Maronite liturgy several years ago, I seem to recall it was called the Holy Qurbono. I’ve heard a Byzantine Catholic friend refer to the Divine Liturgy at her church as “Mass”, so I wonder if the expression “Mass” is used more generally amongst the Eastern & Oriental Catholic churches than it is amongst their Orthodox counter-parts, where they exist, to mean the service of the offering of the Eucharist.

I read somewhere (haven’t found more info on it) that in Hungary a group of Protestant Christians converted to Catholicism, but when they did, chose the Byzantine rather than Latin rite. I’d like to learn more about this group if the information is available in English.
 
If it’s Iraq or Afghanistan, sucks is a good descriptor! :eek: I greatly admire out troops. God bless 'em. 👍
PbloPicasso said:
I have to put a hundred on a military location… Not somewhere desirable. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt…still rolled up in my drawer.😉
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Madaglan said:
When I went to a Maronite liturgy several years ago, I seem to recall it was called the Holy Qurbono. I’ve heard a Byzantine Catholic friend refer to the Divine Liturgy at her church as “Mass”, so I wonder if the expression “Mass” is used more generally amongst the Eastern & Oriental Catholic churches than it is amongst their Orthodox counter-parts, where they exist, to mean the service of the offering of the Eucharist.

I read somewhere (haven’t found more info on it) that in Hungary a group of Protestant Christians converted to Catholicism, but when they did, chose the Byzantine rather than Latin rite. I’d like to learn more about this group if the information is available in English.
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The Maronites in my town use “Qurbono” and “Liturgy” interchangeably.

I also use the term “Mass” around my parents (but only then), simply to pacify their constant worries that I’m not Catholic or fully Catholic anymore because I switched rites. (I also refer to the Roman Mass as the “Liturgy” around fellow Byzantines - it’s just a difference in language, and I ought to be smart enough to be able to speak both, in the appropriate company.)
 
Azurestone said:
This understanding is skewed.

As a Roman Catholic, you understand the Roman Catholic Church and the other Churches in Communion with the Pope constitute the “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church”.

The Eastern Orthodox are in schism with the Catholic Church. They are literally separated from the Church. While their liturgy, Apostolic Succession, and Sacraments are valid, they are “illicit” by being out of communion with the Pope.

Therefore, to switch to an Orthodox Church from the Catholic Church is to commit a mortal sin. You aren’t switching to a different rite, as in Byzantine Catholic, you are converting religions.

If there the Roman Catholic Church is “the One Church”, you stay in the Catholic Church. Understand there are theological and religious differences with the Eastern Orthodox, and is not a matter of preference.
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I wouldn’t quite say that leaving the Church for Greek Orthodoxy is “switching religions”, since the religion that the Greek Orthodox practice is (Byzantine-rite) Catholicism. What’s wrong with them is not their religion but their schism, and leaving union with Rome for them would indeed be a mortal sin.

Following the terminology that the Church uses, I would also say that the Greek Orthodox are truly the Church just as we are, because of their valid sacraments and Eucharistic Sacrifice (which is the Sacrifice of the Church - not some other Sacrifice or some other Calvary being mystically re-presented or some other Eucharist). But since Peter truly is the rock upon which the Church is built, the churches separated from Rome are wounded by schism, and it would be a mortal sin to leave Catholicism for this reason.

If you are drawn to the Byzantine tradition (as I and most of the rest of us here were!), then I would become a Greek Catholic. There is no need to forsake Rome and reject the legitimacy of the entire Western tradition just because you want to adopt a different one, which is what becoming Greek Orthodox would really (unfortunately) entail.

I can’t wait until the Orthodox come back into unity with Rome. Then I would be going to all the local Orthodox churches in a heartbeat.
 
Aramis said:
Mass is also a term used in english for the Chadean and Maronite liturgies, as well, by those churches, not just the Roman.

Byzantine is a bit of a loaded term, because the Metropolia of Pittsbugh (Ruthenian) often identifies itself as the Byzantine Catholic Church.

The term Byzantine Catholic can legitimately be used to refer to any catholic of the 14 Byzantine Rite churches sui iuris, or the subjects of those same churches, or the parishes thereof; it replaces the term “Greek Catholic”… As far as I can tell, only for the Metropolia of Pittsburgh has the formal name been changed to include it, tho.
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Some Ukrainians do identify themselves as “Byzantine Catholics”.

I’m Ruthenian, but I still prefer to call myself a “Greek Catholic” rather than “Byzantine” - and the two terms really ought to be used as strict synonyms. “Byzantine” is kind of an Americanization; it’s not used in Europe and frankly I never heard the term growing up. Growing up, in my world there were Roman Catholics, and there were Greek Catholics (apologies to the Maronites and Orientals).
 
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