I am not a Traditionalist

[maurin]

…nor am I a ‘modernist.’ I am a Catholic, born in December of 1963. The only Mass that I have ever known is what is called by some the Novus Ordo. To me, it is just “Mass.” A time for me to celebrate with others that “the Lord has done great things for me” and “the Lord has done great things for us.”

There are times that I am so overcome with His presence during the Eucharist that I do want to get on my knees and receive Him, as unworthy as I am, on my tongue. Other times I am so overcome by His presence and His great Love for me, His Mercy for me, His adoption of me through His Son, our Lord Jesus, in spite of my wretchedness, that I consider how fortunate that I can also hold Him in my hands-- and adore Him, just for a moment before consuming Him as He commanded-- as He forever holds me, “holds me in the palm of His hands.”

I am not, however, overcome with emotions because of the music that is played at Mass, I am not overcome with emotions because of the way my neighbor is dressed, or if he is singing or not singing. I am not overcome with emotions because my neighbor is talking when I am trying so hard to pray. I am not overcome with emotions if the Altar servers are male or female, if they are wearing dress shoes or tennis shoes, cassocks and surplices or albs.

I am overcome with emotions because Jesus is present, and everything else–bad singing, poorly or inappropriately dressed neighbors, the talkers–is swept away by His awesome presence, and I see Him so much more clearly. And in spite of everything and everyone that I would change, if I could change, I know that I can only change myself. And I hear Mary’s words from today’s Gospel ringing in my ears: “Do whatever He tells you.”

We are human. We are weak. We are mistakes upon mistakes on pilgrimage to perfection, hopefully in this life, probably not until the next. And I am, for now at least, content to bear the pin-pricks of the Novus Ordo, because I do not have the courage to bear the wounds of the nails or the thorns or the lance. Well, not alone anyway…

I would love to attend a Traditional Latin Mass.

 

[lizaanne]

maurin - that is amazing and beautiful.

Thank you. No other words in reply seem adequate.

~Liza

 

[LCMS_No_More]

 

[ComradeAndrei]

While I agree with the overall premise of the OP, there are very legitimate questions and concerns brought up by very eminent and distinguished clerics and laymen from His Holiness on down that cannot be covered over by what is in essense, “It’s valid, quit complaining.”

 

[maurin]

While I agree with the overall premise of the OP, there are very legitimate questions and concerns brought up by very eminent and distinguished clerics and laymen from His Holiness on down that cannot be covered over by what is in essense, “It’s valid, quit complaining.”

Dear Comrade,

I do not believe that you understood the premise of my post. It has nothing to do with ‘validity’ or anyone ‘complaining.’ I am a proficient complainer (silently though), and there is no doubt in my mind of the validity of the NO or the Tridentine.

It is simply a jotting down of my musings during Mass today. I recently moved to a new State, and I have recently switched Parishes for many of the reasons I talked about. At this new Parish I was struck how during the “Gloria” that the female Cantor sang “…and peace to God’s people on earth.” I was not struck positively.

My original post was just my musings during the celebration of the Eucharist. My conclusion? I can only focus on Jesus. My Italian Grandmother (may she rest nestled up to His Sacred Heart) would add: fa e fatti tuoi. Focus on Jesus and mind my own, in other words.

 

[palmas85]

…nor am I a ‘modernist.’ I am a Catholic, born in December of 1963. The only Mass that I have ever known is what is called by some the Novus Ordo. To me, it is just “Mass.” A time for me to celebrate with others that “the Lord has done great things for me” and “the Lord has done great things for us.”

There are times that I am so overcome with His presence during the Eucharist that I do want to get on my knees and receive Him, as unworthy as I am, on my tongue. Other times I am so overcome by His presence and His great Love for me, His Mercy for me, His adoption of me through His Son, our Lord Jesus, in spite of my wretchedness, that I consider how fortunate that I can also hold Him in my hands-- and adore Him, just for a moment before consuming Him as He commanded-- as He forever holds me, “holds me in the palm of His hands.”

I am not, however, overcome with emotions because of the music that is played at Mass, I am not overcome with emotions because of the way my neighbor is dressed, or if he is singing or not singing. I am not overcome with emotions because my neighbor is talking when I am trying so hard to pray. I am not overcome with emotions if the Altar servers are male or female, if they are wearing dress shoes or tennis shoes, cassocks and surplices or albs.

I am overcome with emotions because Jesus is present, and everything else–bad singing, poorly or inappropriately dressed neighbors, the talkers–is swept away by His awesome presence, and I see Him so much more clearly. And in spite of everything and everyone that I would change, if I could change, I know that I can only change myself. And I hear Mary’s words from today’s Gospel ringing in my ears: “Do whatever He tells you.”

We are human. We are weak. We are mistakes upon mistakes on pilgrimage to perfection, hopefully in this life, probably not until the next. And I am, for now at least, content to bear the pin-pricks of the Novus Ordo, because I do not have the courage to bear the wounds of the nails or the thorns or the lance. Well, not alone anyway…

I would love to attend a Traditional Latin Mass.

You sound fairly traditional to me. It is sad that the term Traditionalist has become such a perjorative term for those who adhere to the traditional beliefs of the Church. By many we who term ourselves Traditionalist are considered to be anti Catholic, not even true Catholics, hopeless reprobates, knuckledraggers as it were, stuck in the past, unable to comprehend the glory of the new faith, that in these modern times traditional piety is just plain wrong and in fact suspect. To these people we are dangerous because we see Christ and the Church and the Eucharist and the Mass as being truly special, and something that should not be played around with in order to make them more relevant, or modern, or whatever those people want them to be these days.

Fortunately most of the posters here regardless as to their preferences, are fairly traditional in their beliefs and values, and that really should be the litmus test., not which Mass or music they prefer.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

It is simply a jotting down of my musings during Mass today. I recently moved to a new State, and I have recently switched Parishes for many of the reasons I talked about. At this new Parish I was struck how during the “Gloria” that the female Cantor sang “…and peace to God’s people on earth.” I was not struck positively.

My original post was just my musings during the celebration of the Eucharist. My conclusion? I can only focus on Jesus. My Italian Grandmother (may she rest nestled up to His Sacred Heart) would add: fa e fatti tuoi. Focus on Jesus and mind my own, in other words.

I stand corrected.

 

[anamchara]

maurin - that is amazing and beautiful.

Thank you. No other words in reply seem adequate.

~Liza

Lizzaane, perfectly put it truly is inspired.

 

[maurin]

You sound fairly traditional to me. It is sad that the term Traditionalist has become such a perjorative term for those who adhere to the traditional beliefs of the Church. By many we who term ourselves Traditionalist are considered to be anti Catholic, not even true Catholics, hopeless reprobates, knuckledraggers as it were, stuck in the past, unable to comprehend the glory of the new faith, that in these modern times traditional piety is just plain wrong and in fact suspect. To these people we are dangerous because we see Christ and the Church and the Eucharist and the Mass as being truly special, and something that should not be played around with in order to make them more relevant, or modern, or whatever those people want them to be these days.

Fortunately most of the posters here regardless as to their preferences, are fairly traditional in their beliefs and values, and that really should be the litmus test., not which Mass or music they prefer.

I am traditional. I am Catholic. We are people of Tradition. Everything about us, including the Scriptures, flow from the Traditions passed on by the Apostles and those first disciples who lived and ate with and learned from and understood more and built upon and passed on again that which happened before and after Christ’s Ascension.

As ComradeAndrei aptly pointed out in his first post on this thread, there are legitimate questions and concerns that have arisen over these passed forty years since the Second Vatican Council. I, for one, do not feel compelled nor do I feel called to join hands at the Lord’s prayer. But neither do I feel compelled or called to worry about others who do. Fa e fatti tuoi.

There is a story–probably more of a legend–about the previous Bishop of the Diocese in which I came back home to the Church. About 10 years ago or so, the Bishop asked all of his Priests to remove the Altar Rails from their Churches. All but one complied. The Bishop, when in communication with the Priest about his Confirmation schedule, told the Priest that he would arrive with a sledge hammer. Needless to say, the Altar Rails were removed professionally prior to his arrival.

This story–legend–caused me much worry and fear about the Bishop. I was very good friends with my Priest who came to the Diocese at the invitation of this Bishop, and with whom he was quite close. I spent many evenings with my Priest and my Bishop–I was very fortunate to have forged these relationships. I came to realize that–and this is my conclusion, I never asked the Bishop if the story were true, and if it were, why he felt so strongly–that the Altar Rails to some extent, represented a barrier between God and His people. A great chasm, if you will. A chasm that was bridged permanently by the Incarnation, and permanently filled-in by the Passion and the Resurrection.

The Sanctuary is a Holy place. The greatest mysteries of our great Faith are made present and real therein. And, listening to our God-become-Man, Jesus the Lord, we never cast pearls before swine. But He Himself tells us, “You shall no more be termed Forsaken… but you shall be called My delight is in her… for the Lord delights in you” (Is 62).

I think I told you this story about our Bishop and the Altar Rails in response to what you wrote that non-Traditionalists think of Traditionalists: “anti-Catholics, knuckledraggers stuck in the past, etc.”

I think that what it comes down to, no matter what side of the fence you are on, is that which motivates you.

I believe I would rather surround myself with Traditionalists and Liberals who have truly experienced and continually live the Metanoia Jesus preaches in the Gospel of Mark-- Repent, the Kingdom of God is at hand!!!-- rather than Pharisees and Libertines.

And I repeat that I would love to attend a Traditional Latin Mass.

 

[anamchara]

By many we who term ourselves Traditionalist are considered to be anti Catholic, not even true Catholics, hopeless reprobates, knuckledraggers as it were, stuck in the past, unable to comprehend the glory of the new faith, that in these modern times traditional piety is just plain wrong and in fact suspect. To these people we are dangerous because we see Christ and the Church and the Eucharist and the Mass as being truly special, and something that should not be played around with in order to make them more relevant, or modern, or whatever those people want them to be these days.

No, I don’t believe the traditionalist are anti-Catholic and I don’t think anyone feels this way. That is ridiculous and here in lies the problem between the two fractions. Many assumptions on what each feels the other is thinking. And I’m sorry “you are dangerous because you see Christ and the Church and the Eucharist and the Mass as being truly special” wow that is a loaded statement. Your basically saying your side sees and understands the Mass more than the other side, at least that’s how I read it. And we wonder why there are problems.

Lets not forgot some of the things the other side has been called Palmas, "feminazi, happy clappy (which is demeaning) modernists (which is also an insult) shall I show you all the catty posts on “oh lets all love and kiss and sing kumbaya”

And the thing that gets me about these insults is they apply to just about anyone who is suspect of enjoying the N.O. The assumption seems to be that nearly all NO Masses are rife with abuse, therefore, if you like the NO, you must like the abuses. Poppycock!

Both sides are at fault for not giving the other side the benefit of the doubt.

 

[maryalene]

:clapping:

 

[paramedicgirl]

No, I don’t believe the traditionalist are anti-Catholic and I don’t think anyone feels this way. That is ridiculous and here in lies the problem between the two fractions. Many assumptions on what each feels the other is thinking. And I’m sorry “you are dangerous because you see Christ and the Church and the Eucharist and the Mass as being truly special” wow that is a loaded statement. Your basically saying your side sees and understands the Mass more than the other side, at least that’s how I read it. And we wonder why there are problems.

Lets not forgot some of the things the other side has been called Palmas, "feminazi, happy clappy (which is demeaning) modernists (which is also an insult) shall I show you all the catty posts on “oh lets all love and kiss and sing kumbaya”

And the thing that gets me about these insults is they apply to just about anyone who is suspect of enjoying the N.O. The assumption seems to be that nearly all NO Masses are rife with abuse, therefore, if you like the NO, you must like the abuses. Poppycock!

Both sides are at fault for not giving the other side the benefit of the doubt.

I attend the Novus Ordo, and have a very wonderful priest who has started weekly adoration and is always available for confession. Not all NO masses are “rife with abuses”. Some of them are very reverent. It is usually the people who make them irreverent, and not the priests. But that is just my opinion, and I have learned here that it doesn’t count for much.

I have been accused of belonging to SSPX, but it’s not true.

 

[mdstanzel]

This has confirmed my suspicions. My issue is that now even the Catholic Church is experiencing one schism after another like our Protestant brothers – enemies if you’re of that persuasion like my father was before he died. Where have we gone wrong? Do we not accept our own faith? We seem to have assigned our role as judge, juror and executioner or should that be Pope, Cardinals and Bishops. Obviously we are engaging in the same kind of rhetoric that the Protestants hit the Church with during the reformation. We are now no better off than our Protestant friends in that we keep pushing apart.

This is very sad to see after being away for 17 years. I became a militant as an anti-Catholic because of they must not be right because they can’t get anything right. They don’t even know what they believe. I see why I left. When I met my father-in-law he impressed me so much by his example that he, a protestant elder (bishop), set as good an example as the Saints. I believe he is the reason for returning to the Church with his daughter. Although he was not fulfilling the entire Christian faith, it was impressive that a poor sharecropper with an eighth grade education could set a real example.

I’m still struggling with where this is going. I love tradition and love eccumenical stuff. I am coming home to the “holy catholic and apostolic church” not Traditionalist or Liberalists. Maybe I’m missing something. But I’m trying to be peaceful.

 

[anamchara]

I attend the Novus Ordo, and have a very wonderful priest who has started weekly adoration and is always available for confession. Not all NO masses are “rife with abuses”. Some of them are very reverent. It is usually the people who make them irreverent, and not the priests. But that is just my opinion, and I have learned here that it doesn’t count for much.

I have been accused of belonging to SSPX, but it’s not true.

That sounds very nice paramed we have an older priest who is going to bring back weekly adoration as well. I was just talking to him about it today as matter of fact. He brought out the Monstrance(sp) and was showing me the different parts. It is very beautiful. I am looking forward to it

 

[Karin]

That sounds very nice paramed we have an older priest who is going to bring back weekly adoration as well. I was just talking to him about it today as matter of fact. He brought out the Monstrance(sp) and was showing me the different parts. It is very beautiful. I am looking forward to it

Our Parish does Perpetual Adoration …let me tell you you guys will see a change in your parish once you start adoration (all for the good)!

 

[mdstanzel]

My issue with all of these non-sense arguements is that it breed more hate. Even the Catholic Church is experiencing one schism after another like our Protestant brothers. Where have we gone wrong? Do we not accept our own faith? Obviously we are engaging in the same kind of rhetoric that the Protestants hit the Church with during the reformation. We are now no better off than our Protestant friends in that we keep pushing apart.

This is very sad to see after being away for 17 years. I became a militant anti-Catholic because became convinced that the “Catholics” must not be the real Church, because they can’t get anything right. They don’t even know what they believe anymore. The list goes on and on. I see why I left.

After returning to Catholicism, I considered Orthodox Church becasue I thought they might have it together. Everyone is arguing over self promoting preferences. I’m still struggling with where this is going. I love tradition and love eccumenical behavior. I believe as in the Nicene Creed, but I do not accept hateful people’s positions. I am coming home to the “holy catholic and apostolic church” not Traditionalist or whatever. Maybe I’m missing something. But I’m trying to be peaceful and keep my wife from fleeing this after giving up a peaceful existance with her own family for this horse manure.

 

[carol_marie]

To the OP: I LOVED your post. Thanks & God Bless you.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I attend the Novus Ordo, and have a very wonderful priest who has started weekly adoration and is always available for confession. Not all NO masses are “rife with abuses”. Some of them are very reverent. It is usually the people who make them irreverent, and not the priests. But that is just my opinion, and I have learned here that it doesn’t count for much.

I have been accused of belonging to SSPX, but it’s not true.

With respect, Paramedic Girl, as one who does love the NO and who attends it exclusively, when there ARE abuses, they are generally either something the priest does or something the priest allows. The Pauline Rite hasn’t really had a fair chance, IMHO, because in the “silly season,” there were far too many priests who wanted to stamp their egos on the Mass, who wanted to make it “special” or “relevant,” as if it wasn’t already. I’ve been blessed to attend reverent and well-offered NO Masses in the same parish where there are, to my mind, irreverently offered and objectively abused NO Masses. What was the difference? The priest who offered the Mass. Hopefully, with the younger generation (I risk saying the “John Paul II” generation) rising, the Mass will come to be consistently offered with reverence and without ego. Yes, certainly, there are lay people involved in abuse, but only so far as they are allowed by the priest.

If the Holy Father threw up his hands in disgust tomorrow and said,“Right then, it’s back to the TLM, in Latin, for EVERYBODY!!!,” the priests and bishops who practiced or allowed these abuses would have only THEMSELVES to blame.

And of course, your opinion matters.

 

[paramedicgirl]

With respect, Paramedic Girl, as one who does love the NO and who attends it exclusively, when there ARE abuses, they are generally either something the priest does or something the priest allows. The Pauline Rite hasn’t really had a fair chance, IMHO, because in the “silly season,” there were far too many priests who wanted to stamp their egos on the Mass, who wanted to make it “special” or “relevant,” as if it wasn’t already. I’ve been blessed to attend reverent and well-offered NO Masses in the same parish where there are, to my mind, irreverently offered and objectively abused NO Masses. What was the difference? The priest who offered the Mass. Hopefully, with the younger generation (I risk saying the “John Paul II” generation) rising, the Mass will come to be consistently offered with reverence and without ego. Yes, certainly, there are lay people involved in abuse, but only so far as they are allowed by the priest.

If the Holy Father threw up his hands in disgust tomorrow and said,“Right then, it’s back to the TLM, in Latin, for EVERYBODY!!!,” the priests and bishops who practiced or allowed these abuses would have only THEMSELVES to blame.

And of course, your opinion matters.

Here, the experience is different. Our priest is isolated, with no other religious for support. We have some pretty demanding people here, who badger the priest into doing things their way. They can be real bullies. The bishop only comes here once a year, for confirmation. The next closest parish is over a hundred miles away. So, you can see, if the priest is not of very strong character, he can easily be manipulated by these people. I have seen it happen for ten years. We have had priests leave here in tears, never to return. So, your experience is not my experience.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

here, the experience is different. Our priest is isolated, with no other religious for support. We have some pretty demanding peopel here, who badger the priest into doing things their way. They can be real bullies. the bishop only comes here once a year, for confirmation. The next closest parish is over a hundred miles away. So, you can see, if the priest is not of very strong character, he can easily be manipulated by these peopel. i have seen it happen for ten years. We have had priests leave here in tears, never to return. So, your experience is not my experience.

Certainly true, we tend to “universalize” our experience. Sorry.