I am not a Traditionalist

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This is great. I am not a traditionalist either, I am simply Catholic. The word “traditionalist” and “conservative” come from people who try to make the Catholic Church a political insititution and try to make people who do not practice the faith in it’s fullness, still Catholic. But as it goes, you are either Catholic or not. There really is no such thing as “conservative” or “liberal.”
 
Can we define what it means to be “CATHOLIC”…what is the definition??
 
JKirkLVNV said:
I go back to what I said before: in the “silly season,” priests seem to feel that they had to put their personal mark or “stamp” on the Mass, to give it a flavor that was distinctly “them.” That has lead to liturgical chaos. Out of chaos, there nearly always comes the desire for order; hence, the younger generation determining to offer the Mass correctly.
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Can you back your statement with substance? I do not believe that the answer is quite that simple.
 
The point of my OP was motivation. What motivates us? For example what motivates a Holy Priest–and by virtue of the Sacrament of Ordination, the Priesthood is Holy–to abuse the Sacred Liturgy. And what really–I mean really–motivates a young Holy Priest to embrace the TLM? It seems to me, and I could be getting it wrong, that there are a lot of babies being thrown out with the bathwater.
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can you explain what you mean by this part (in bold)…
 
Image_of_God said:
This is great. I am not a traditionalist either, I am simply Catholic. The word “traditionalist” and “conservative” come from people who try to make the Catholic Church a political insititution and try to make people who do not practice the faith in it’s fullness, still Catholic. But as it goes, you are either Catholic or not. There really is no such thing as “conservative” or “liberal.”
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I have to respectfully disagree here.
When one has lived through, “I don’t understand people like you.”
or “There is something in the water over there (in reference to my historically Catholic parish)”
I’ll go with traditional anytime.

It’s not political, it’s defensive.
 
Karin said:
Oh dear… fellow Ms. Toe-Tag…
I agree with the sentiment of your post…🙂
We shall have no further HeHE’s among the toe-taggers…it is frowned upon

but then this is just my humble opinion and who cares?!
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:D:D:D
 
I understand that people feel the need to express themselfs on these boards. I just think that we need to be reminded of the importance of the Majesterium, Tradition and Scripture (MTS). MTS - keep too it and self mortification should include efforts in at least trying to understand and accept as with the Eastern Church and the Western Church concept of keeping the peace. No wonder we are a combative people, always at war with those that disagree.

I learned something from my experience as a militant Protestant against the Catholic Church’s “screwed” up mixed up inconsistant teachings. People have a hard time remembering that Christ wants us to “Love one another as I have loved you.” Where’s the Love? WHERE IS THE LOVE! Do we not have the Love of Christ within us? Where is our faith? We miss the point and legalize our beliefs to defend our preference. We miss the point of the Mass and I feel that that is sinful. We are so engaged in our own physical environmental tastes that we forget about others physical environmental tastes. Are we not supposed to engage in self mortification and therefore self denial of our own preferences and desires. We are engaging in judgement of others and not letting God be the judge. We think we know it all and better than the Church and therefore better than God. St. Faustina desired to receive the worst that life had to offfer. She was “allowed” to be the cleaning lady of her order. Read about her or watch EWTN specials on her. Her life is very inspiring. The Bishops (that includes the Pope) are very successful in their efforts to unite. I choose to submit in love for Christ so that I do not offend Him.

The Mass is heaven on earth as Scott Hahn so eloquently put. We are missing the real point of the Liturgy. No matter what mass we prefer we should know that we are in the presence of the KING who is our FATHER. That makes us sons and daughters of the our FATHER, the KING, our GOD. We should be mindful of that and ACT LIKE HIM for He sent his only begotten son so that we might live. I’m a very cognitive person, but I am also feely. But I know what the mass is and I understand where it’s going. I’m a soldier, formerly at least. I like to believe that the Liturgy of the Eucharist is just as meaningful in the administrative facilities thrown together before I or my sons enter into battle that may be lead to death. Where’s the Love. [Sounds like I’m practicing my preacher skills 🙂 ]

If the Bishops really stood up and forced their hand with what they are trying to accomplish in the Church, i.e. God’s people/children, thousands, if not millions, would flea the umbrella of the Church and that would not be Agape LOVE like God. No matter what we post, God is still in control. Thank God.👍
 
Karin said:
can you explain what you mean by this part (in bold)…
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I’ll try.

I had mentioned earlier in the thread that I had recently moved to a new state. After a couple of months at one Parish, I decided I was not happy there, and decided to try another. At the new Parish, a female Cantor changed a word in the “Gloria.” Instead of “and Peace to His people on earth,” she sang a what seemed to me a politically correct pronoun. It bothered me on some levels, and not at all on another when I thought about it.

But I suppose I have been wondering why she would change the word in the first place.

And I wonder what motivates others to revile the Novus Ordo, and others to revile the TLM.

I’m not sure if I answered your question sufficiently. Let me know. I’d like to have this conversation.
 
Karin said:
can you explain what you mean by this part (in bold)…
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I can’t say for sure, but I think that what the poster means is that there is general idea that the only way we can get back to the reverence in the Holy Mass is to go back to the TLM.

I respectfully disagree with that idea as well.
A reverent NO with a Universal Indult to accomodate the people who want the TLM should be what we are shooting for.

I think that many who fear the TLM fear it because they think it will replace the NO. In some ways I am in fear of that as well. I don’t want the “Liturgical Committees” of some parishes to say, “Well we gave you a TLM so now we can have all the innovations we want in our NO.”

I don’t want to lose my Holy Mass either.
Through God’s Blessings my wonderful pastor (God Bless him and grant him long life) is under a Bishop in Slovakia. We will not lose our Holy Mass.
 
maurin said:
I’ll try.

I had mentioned earlier in the thread that I had recently moved to a new state. After a couple of months at one Parish, I decided I was not happy there, and decided to try another. At the new Parish, a female Cantor changed a word in the “Gloria.” Instead of “and Peace to His people on earth,” she sang a what seemed to me a politically correct pronoun. It bothered me on some levels, and not at all on another when I thought about it.

But I suppose I have been wondering why she would change the word in the first place.

And I wonder what motivates others to revile the Novus Ordo, and others to revile the TLM.

I’m not sure if I answered your question sufficiently. Let me know. I’d like to have this conversation.
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Kind of…I am sorry (honestly:o )
But I seem to be missing something here (as usual:o 😦 )…

Let me see if I got this right from your example above …you are wondering what would make her change the words in the first place…did you ask her or the Priest?

As to why others would revile the the NO or the TLM in general…I think some of it has to do with Satan…meaning he has got hold of certain folks and through them he can revile our Sacred and Holy Mass…I do think that we need to pray for our Priests, Bishops, Pope.
I am also sure that there are other reasons that a person would feel the need to revile the Mass…as there are many Priests, Bishops etc. that revile the Mass there are as many reasons!

Once again this is just my humble opinion
 
You know, I agree. I think the arguements against the TLM or the NO are very troublesome. In some cases, it is forgotten that the Eucharist is why we are there, not the environment. We m0st understand that God has given us a wonderful gift. The Catholic Church. We should except it no matter what.🙂
 
brotherhrolf said:
One of the problems I see is that there is a gap between those of us who remember the TLM of our childhood and those who have come after. Everyone seems to think that the “new springtime of the Church” was a welcome thing, that Catholics were tired of the silence, tired of hearing rosary beads clacking, no one understood Latin, etc…all the usual shibboleths. What is not understood is that there were a great many of us who were absolutely appalled by what happened. Myself included.

Let me share something with you. In 1965, the Mass was still in Latin. By 1969 we had switched to the NO. I’ll not go into great detail but it disturbed me to the very core of my being that we sang Simon and Garfunkle’s “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and " Hello Darkness" at my graduation Mass from a Catholic High School. In four short years we went from singing Tantum Ergo to such classics as the now non-pc “Sons of God”, “They’ll Know We are Christians”, “Here I am Lord” and so on and so on.

We went from choir and organ to guitar. From absolute reverence to swaying, and grinning, and a strumming. I was aghast! I would try to find the earliest Mass I could attend to avoid what was going on. In 1970 we still received communion kneeling down…then came the change to removal of the communion rails and reception in the hand. I could not take it. And so, for some six years I simply did not attend Mass. I did not join another church, I simply placed my soul in jeopardy. I don’t think I was the only one.

When I moved up here to go to grad school, by word of mouth, I found that the cathedral parish was noted for its reverence. My then fiance and I began attending. It was the NO but it was reverent and, at that time, still maintained some pre-V II rites such as the Asperges Me (in Latin) before Mass started. There was a plaque in the cathedral which stated:

The Lord is in His holy temple; let all the earth keep silent before Him. Habakuk 2:20

And they did and for the most part today, still do.

I wouldn’t call myself a strict traditionalist. I love my parish and drive 25 miles to attend. We have a very reverent NO. What I have discovered recently through these forums and in particular watching the TLMs and the abused NOs on YouTube, etc. is that I find that there is a missing element for me today. I’m at a loss to explain it. The closest I can come to capturing my feelings is that with the TLM I entered into the presence of God in a way that I cannot with the NO. I don’t know exactly how to explain it to you.

Father has asked me if I would be willing to sing in a Gregorian choir. If the universal indult is issued and if we are able to have a TLM at the cathedral, I feel strongly called. I’m not a knuckle dragger…I loved the Church of my youth and wish that everyone could have experienced it. I think my friend Palmas feels the same way since he and I are of an age and we lived in the same city. We simply don’t have adequate points of reference.

For the record, I am INTJ. Oh, yeah, too, I have never received Our Lord in my hand either.
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absolutely beautiful post, brother! You explained it well. I remember bits and pieces of the TLM. I remember the silence. When NO came along, for me, it was a breath of air, of expression from the gifts of the Holy Spirit…I felt Jesus up close and personal, not from far away. I am a true ENFJ, empathic and emotional. My relationship with God is personal, and if and when I come in contact with His faith community, it is something to behold. It isn’t the trappings that speak to me, it’s looking toward my neighbor and saying, I’m so glad to see you, meet you, welcome. The sermon on the mount and loaves and fishes are my favorite chapters…all of us coming together to listen, to share, and receive our Lord, not as a symbol, but He’s really there with us.
thanks for sharing!
Juli
 
Joysong said:
No, they will hijack your thread in favor of their own agendas and private conversations … as per usual. Forget about honest discussion.
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Well, we’ve been having a very nice discussion since about 1:00. (it’s now an hour later)

Then you showed up to put in your usual Sunshine!

You are my sunshine, my only sunshine…


Gotta love it! 🙂
 
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