I am not a Traditionalist

[Karin]

No, they will hijack your thread in favor of their own agendas and private conversations … as per usual. Forget about honest discussion.

you know that is not very nice or accurate “blanket statement”…I for one am getting tired of the “blanket staetments” that are getting thrown around!
And for your FYI I (and others ) was/where discussing it with the OP!
I notice that you did not even bother to give your insight to the question that she posted… actaully I noticed that this is your first and only post to this thread

*but then this is just my opinion and who cares?! *

 

[mary_bobo]

…nor am I a ‘modernist.’ I am a Catholic, born in December of 1963. The only Mass that I have ever known is what is called by some the Novus Ordo. To me, it is just “Mass.” A time for me to celebrate with others that “the Lord has done great things for me” and “the Lord has done great things for us.”

There are times that I am so overcome with His presence during the Eucharist that I do want to get on my knees and receive Him, as unworthy as I am, on my tongue. Other times I am so overcome by His presence and His great Love for me, His Mercy for me, His adoption of me through His Son, our Lord Jesus, in spite of my wretchedness, that I consider how fortunate that I can also hold Him in my hands-- and adore Him, just for a moment before consuming Him as He commanded-- as He forever holds me, “holds me in the palm of His hands.”

I am not, however, overcome with emotions because of the music that is played at Mass, I am not overcome with emotions because of the way my neighbor is dressed, or if he is singing or not singing. I am not overcome with emotions because my neighbor is talking when I am trying so hard to pray. I am not overcome with emotions if the Altar servers are male or female, if they are wearing dress shoes or tennis shoes, cassocks and surplices or albs.

I am overcome with emotions because Jesus is present, and everything else–bad singing, poorly or inappropriately dressed neighbors, the talkers–is swept away by His awesome presence, and I see Him so much more clearly. And in spite of everything and everyone that I would change, if I could change, I know that I can only change myself. And I hear Mary’s words from today’s Gospel ringing in my ears: “Do whatever He tells you.”

We are human. We are weak. We are mistakes upon mistakes on pilgrimage to perfection, hopefully in this life, probably not until the next. And I am, for now at least, content to bear the pin-pricks of the Novus Ordo, because I do not have the courage to bear the wounds of the nails or the thorns or the lance. Well, not alone anyway…

I would love to attend a Traditional Latin Mass.

I hope you will attend a TLM. There is room for both forms, I think.

 

[Karin]

. No matter what mass we prefer we should know that we are in the presence of the KING who is our FATHER.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Can you back your statement with substance? I do not believe that the answer is quite that simple.

I rec. a read of Fr. Richard John Neuhaus’ *Catholic Matters. *He deals with the “silly season.” I have no statistics on why priests abuse the Mass nor why younger priests seem not to do so. I don’t think they exist.

I’ve heard and read on these forums that any time the Church has held a council, there has been a period of disruption. When you think on how long the Church takes to act on matters, fourty years is not long, really. There was a lot of misinterpretation, a lot of “spirit” of Vatican II that had nothing to do with the Council. Just so with the Mass, IMHO: priests took the change for a liscense to experiment. That’s not what was intended.

 

[netmilsmom]

I’ve heard and read on these forums that any time the Church has held a council, there has been a period of disruption. When you think on how long the Church takes to act on matters, fourty years is not long, really. There was a lot of misinterpretation, a lot of “spirit” of Vatican II that had nothing to do with the Council. Just so with the Mass, IMHO: priests took the change for a liscense to experiment. That’s not what was intended.

This makes total sense!

 

[paramedicgirl]

I can’t say for sure, but I think that what the poster means is that there is general idea that the only way we can get back to the reverence in the Holy Mass is to go back to the TLM.

I respectfully disagree with that idea as well.
**A reverent NO with a Universal Indult to accomodate the people who want the TLM should be what we are shooting for.
**
I think that many who fear the TLM fear it because they think it will replace the NO. In some ways I am in fear of that as well. I don’t want the “Liturgical Committees” of some parishes to say, “Well we gave you a TLM so now we can have all the innovations we want in our NO.”

I don’t want to lose my Holy Mass either.
Through God’s Blessings my wonderful pastor (God Bless him and grant him long life) is under a Bishop in Slovakia. We will not lose our Holy Mass.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Well, we’ve been having a very nice discussion since about 1:00. (it’s now an hour later)

Then you showed up to put in your usual Sunshine!
angelqueen.org
You are my sunshine, my only sunshine…
angelqueen.org

Gotta love it!

Do I recognize the musical notes of Khumbaya? angelqueen.org

 

[paramedicgirl]

you know that is not very nice or accurate “blanket statement”…I for one am getting tired of the “blanket staetments” that are getting thrown around!
And for your FYI I (and others ) was/where discussing it with the OP!
I notice that you did not even bother to give your insight to the question that she posted… actaully I noticed that this is your first and only post to this thread

*but then this is just my opinion and who cares?! *

Karin, maybe it’s a wet blanket.
But I could be wrong. I’ve been wrong before.

 

[Adonis33]

One of the problems I see is that there is a gap between those of us who remember the TLM of our childhood and those who have come after. Everyone seems to think that the “new springtime of the Church” was a welcome thing, that Catholics were tired of the silence, tired of hearing rosary beads clacking, no one understood Latin, etc…all the usual shibboleths. What is not understood is that there were a great many of us who were absolutely appalled by what happened. Myself included.

Let me share something with you. In 1965, the Mass was still in Latin. By 1969 we had switched to the NO. I’ll not go into great detail but it disturbed me to the very core of my being that we sang Simon and Garfunkle’s “Bridge over Troubled Waters” and " Hello Darkness" at my graduation Mass from a Catholic High School. In four short years we went from singing Tantum Ergo to such classics as the now non-pc “Sons of God”, “They’ll Know We are Christians”, “Here I am Lord” and so on and so on.

We went from choir and organ to guitar. From absolute reverence to swaying, and grinning, and a strumming. I was aghast! I would try to find the earliest Mass I could attend to avoid what was going on. In 1970 we still received communion kneeling down…then came the change to removal of the communion rails and reception in the hand. I could not take it. And so, for some six years I simply did not attend Mass. I did not join another church, I simply placed my soul in jeopardy. I don’t think I was the only one.

When I moved up here to go to grad school, by word of mouth, I found that the cathedral parish was noted for its reverence. My then fiance and I began attending. It was the NO but it was reverent and, at that time, still maintained some pre-V II rites such as the Asperges Me (in Latin) before Mass started. There was a plaque in the cathedral which stated:

The Lord is in His holy temple; let all the earth keep silent before Him. Habakuk 2:20

And they did and for the most part today, still do.

I wouldn’t call myself a strict traditionalist. I love my parish and drive 25 miles to attend. We have a very reverent NO. What I have discovered recently through these forums and in particular watching the TLMs and the abused NOs on YouTube, etc. is that I find that there is a missing element for me today. I’m at a loss to explain it. The closest I can come to capturing my feelings is that with the TLM I entered into the presence of God in a way that I cannot with the NO. I don’t know exactly how to explain it to you.

Father has asked me if I would be willing to sing in a Gregorian choir. If the universal indult is issued and if we are able to have a TLM at the cathedral, I feel strongly called. I’m not a knuckle dragger…I loved the Church of my youth and wish that everyone could have experienced it. I think my friend Palmas feels the same way since he and I are of an age and we lived in the same city. We simply don’t have adequate points of reference.

For the record, I am INTJ. Oh, yeah, too, I have never received Our Lord in my hand either.

A good post. I converted (form Episcopal) when I was about 14. The only Mass I attended - for the most part - was the TLM.

 

[MTD]

The focus is dignified, quiet respect for God almighty, the King to whom we pay respect. When you are before the King (I know, I still live in a constitutional monarchy) you operate with decorum.

God is worshipped less as King and more as gentle Father. The concentration is more on expressons of family and interpersonal interaction (with God) than theology.

Love is not an emotion. It is a willing. The love of St. Therese of Lisieux (she of the Way of Spiritual Childhood) was most intense even through the dark night because it was not an emotional love. Emotional love is not deep; it’s only on the surface. I’m not saying emotional love is bad, but it is really only a small help in the beginning of our growth in love. It quickly falls into disuse when we grow in love because the suffering, trials, and spiritual night of the soul will soon come along and purify us of any attachment to the pleasure of emotions.

I attend a reverent Novus Ordo and have also been to one Tridentine Mass. In this post, I’m not advocating either rite. I’m just pointing out that the love between the Father and His children is not expressed perfectly in emotion. So the classification of the Novus Ordo for those who have a relationship with God as Father and of the Tridentine for those who relate to Him as a King is not really correct.

I had the privilege to know a very holy priest. Recently I was able to attend one of his Masses again. I was absolutely struck by his intense love of Jesus so evident in his reverent gestures–the way he raised the Host, the way he looked at It in adoration, the genuflection he made, the way he said the words of the Mass. It was the very reverence itself of all those gestures that showed his intense love of the Savior. There were no visible emotions about it. And what did that reverence show me? Not the relationship between a king and his subject, but the relationship between spouses, a relationship of love, and a love so intense that he would do or suffer anything for his Beloved.

Intense love is not expressed by feelings. To depend on feelings and emotions is to build the house of our relationship with the Father on sand.

Maria

 

[dessert]

I hope you will attend a TLM. There is room for both forms, I think.

Maurin

I second that suggestion and hope, you may be able to come to some better conclusions if you do.

I am of this generstion into my 50’s and dealing with the outgoing generation of the 80’s so we are adapting to both and it is nice to see the next generation so concerned about the reverance of the church and the sacraments so when I get into my 70’s you guys are champions for the church.
I pray for you! dessert

 

[Karin]

Love is not an emotion. It is a willing. The love of St. Therese of Lisieux (she of the Way of Spiritual Childhood) was most intense even through the dark night because it was not an emotional love. Emotional love is not deep; it’s only on the surface. I’m not saying emotional love is bad, but it is really only a small help in the beginning of our growth in love. It quickly falls into disuse when we grow in love because the suffering, trials, and spiritual night of the soul will soon come along and purify us of any attachment to the pleasure of emotions.

I attend a reverent Novus Ordo and have also been to one Tridentine Mass. In this post, I’m not advocating either rite. I’m just pointing out that the love between the Father and His children is not expressed perfectly in emotion. So the classification of the Novus Ordo for those who have a relationship with God as Father and of the Tridentine for those who relate to Him as a King is not really correct.

I had the privilege to know a very holy priest. Recently I was able to attend one of his Masses again. I was absolutely struck by his intense love of Jesus so evident in his reverent gestures–the way he raised the Host, the way he looked at It in adoration, the genuflection he made, the way he said the words of the Mass. It was the very reverence itself of all those gestures that showed his intense love of the Savior. There were no visible emotions about it. And what did that reverence show me? Not the relationship between a king and his subject, but the relationship between spouses, a relationship of love, and a love so intense that he would do or suffer anything for his Beloved.

Intense love is not expressed by feelings. To depend on feelings and emotions is to build the house of our relationship with the Father on sand.

Maria

thank you that really was a wonderful post…

 

[brotherhrolf]

Maurin

I second that suggestion and hope, you may be able to come to some better conclusions if you do.

I am of this generstion into my 50’s and dealing with the outgoing generation of the 80’s so we are adapting to both and it is nice to see the next generation so concerned about the reverance of the church and the sacraments so when I get into my 70’s you guys are champions for the church.
I pray for you! dessert

Dessert, I think this is what I’m trying to convey. That I believe it IS of vital importance that the reverence that those of us who are in our 50s experienced is passed on. That it not be lost.

I was invited to the Easter Saturday liturgy at our local Orthodox Cathedral in 1976. I thought I had died and gone to heaven. The contrast between the Eastern Orthodox liturgy and the NO was overwhelming. I actually felt like I was in the presence of the Almighty for the first time in years.

We have a big disconnect between those who have only experienced the NO and those of us who know both. I want to know that before I die my future grandchildren will know what it means to experience traditional Catholic worship. The baby got thrown out with the bathwater in 65. Think about it… any Catholic, anywhere in the world, of any culture, of any language, could go to Mass in 1965 and participate. In our global world (remember catholic means universal) what really did V II do?

 

[netmilsmom]

Love is not an emotion. It is a willing. The love of St. Therese of Lisieux (she of the Way of Spiritual Childhood) was most intense even through the dark night because it was not an emotional love. Emotional love is not deep; it’s only on the surface. I’m not saying emotional love is bad, but it is really only a small help in the beginning of our growth in love. It quickly falls into disuse when we grow in love because the suffering, trials, and spiritual night of the soul will soon come along and purify us of any attachment to the pleasure of emotions.

I attend a reverent Novus Ordo and have also been to one Tridentine Mass. In this post, I’m not advocating either rite. I’m just pointing out that the love between the Father and His children is not expressed perfectly in emotion. So the classification of the Novus Ordo for those who have a relationship with God as Father and of the Tridentine for those who relate to Him as a King is not really correct.

I had the privilege to know a very holy priest. Recently I was able to attend one of his Masses again. I was absolutely struck by his intense love of Jesus so evident in his reverent gestures–the way he raised the Host, the way he looked at It in adoration, the genuflection he made, the way he said the words of the Mass. It was the very reverence itself of all those gestures that showed his intense love of the Savior. There were no visible emotions about it. And what did that reverence show me? Not the relationship between a king and his subject, but the relationship between spouses, a relationship of love, and a love so intense that he would do or suffer anything for his Beloved.

Intense love is not expressed by feelings. To depend on feelings and emotions is to build the house of our relationship with the Father on sand.

Maria

That was an amazingly beautiful post.
Thank you.

 

[dessert]

Dessert, I think this is what I’m trying to convey. That I believe it IS of vital importance that the reverence that those of us who are in our 50s experienced is passed on. That it not be lost.

I was invited to the Easter Saturday liturgy at our local Orthodox Cathedral in 1976. I thought I had died and gone to heaven. The contrast between the Eastern Orthodox liturgy and the NO was overwhelming. I actually felt like I was in the presence of the Almighty for the first time in years.

We have a big disconnect between those who have only experienced the NO and those of us who know both. I want to know that before I die my future grandchildren will know what it means to experience traditional Catholic worship. The baby got thrown out with the bathwater in 65. Think about it… any Catholic, anywhere in the world, of any culture, of any language, could go to Mass in 1965 and participate. In our global world (remember catholic means universal) what really did V II do?

My dear brother, I don’t know what VII did I was estranged from the church for many years but I am glad I came back to the english as I can understand it.
To show you how much it has changed for our nativity was up and the last week the priest brought out the three kings and acted self concioooous about it but I thought it was charming but then realized many of the traditions was gone but then alot of the instruction is gone because of the lay teachers and I am guilty of leaving the church as many others when it needed us and I did not bring my children up in the church ither and just decided to prance my way back into it.
Pray many others will return and pray our grandchildren will see our example of a reverant tradition but not arguing.
The baby isn’t totally thown out, hang onto the nativity, this new pope is bring unity I can see and amongest our four cc in our city we are trying to unite with the priests taking turns at other parishes and communal confession etc.
There may not be as many as there were so we may have to unite and grow again. I’m even gettiing some step catholic grandchildren along with my blessed grandchildren wait till you have them they will listen to you more than to there own parents so be prepared to introduce them to the sacraments and let them sit up front so they are not distracted by all the other stuff going on. Our church still has a crucifix thank the God of our fathers for that and go find a parish that does . Dessert

 

[brotherhrolf]

And, you are again right. We need to pass down what we learned. When was the last time anyone participated in a Corpus Christi procession?

 

[Adonis33]

Love is not an emotion. It is a willing. The love of St. Therese of Lisieux (she of the Way of Spiritual Childhood) was most intense even through the dark night because it was not an emotional love. Emotional love is not deep; it’s only on the surface. I’m not saying emotional love is bad, but it is really only a small help in the beginning of our growth in love. It quickly falls into disuse when we grow in love because the suffering, trials, and spiritual night of the soul will soon come along and purify us of any attachment to the pleasure of emotions.

I attend a reverent Novus Ordo and have also been to one Tridentine Mass. In this post, I’m not advocating either rite. I’m just pointing out that the love between the Father and His children is not expressed perfectly in emotion. So the classification of the Novus Ordo for those who have a relationship with God as Father and of the Tridentine for those who relate to Him as a King is not really correct.

I had the privilege to know a very holy priest. Recently I was able to attend one of his Masses again. I was absolutely struck by his intense love of Jesus so evident in his reverent gestures–the way he raised the Host, the way he looked at It in adoration, the genuflection he made, the way he said the words of the Mass. It was the very reverence itself of all those gestures that showed his intense love of the Savior. There were no visible emotions about it. And what did that reverence show me? Not the relationship between a king and his subject, but the relationship between spouses, a relationship of love, and a love so intense that he would do or suffer anything for his Beloved.

Intense love is not expressed by feelings. To depend on feelings and emotions is to build the house of our relationship with the Father on sand.

Maria

Wow - what a beautiful post.

 

[maber43]

hmmmmm

 

[netmilsmom]

And, you are again right. We need to pass down what we learned. When was the last time anyone participated in a Corpus Christi procession?

June 2006.
Gotta love my parish!

May Crowning the month before too.
First Communicants lead the way in blue capes and the Confirmation girls were the court. One was picked to crown Mary.

God Bless my wonderful pastor and give him long life! (with us)

 

[maurin]

And, you are again right. We need to pass down what we learned. When was the last time anyone participated in a Corpus Christi procession?

2006, down King Street in Charleston, South Carolina. Major shopping street in the beautiful city.