I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes

[Reformed]

Fellow Catholics, it appears we’ve all presented Paul’s writings and their harmony with both Christ’s words and Catholic beliefs. We have presented chapter and verse of Paul’s writings - yet Reformed continues to ask for such presentation and/or ignore such presentation.

Reformed, the ball is in your court to answer those posts revealing your beliefs to be in contradiction to Scripture.

Plese just answer post 200 if you can. The postings that are presented is not what you would proclaim to the lost, is it?

 

[Church_Militant]

Fellow Catholics, it appears we’ve all presented Paul’s writings and their harmony with both Christ’s words and Catholic beliefs. We have presented chapter and verse of Paul’s writings - yet Reformed continues to ask for such presentation and/or ignore such presentation.

Reformed, the ball is in your court to answer those posts revealing your beliefs to be in contradiction to Scripture.

And in contradiction to the verifiable historical writings of the early church as well. But he doesn’t care, just a Luther didn’t care that the books that he wanted to remove from the Bible contradicted his fresh new winds of doctrine he had blowing through his followers.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Let’s look at salvation and the gospel of God’s grace as a journey of past, present and future according to Paul. Let’s start with entrance (past for those in Christ). Let’s say your neighbor asked you the question:

Acts 16:30

“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

How does the Apostle Paul respond to this question? Try to stay within the Scriptures and the Apostle Paul.

25And at midnight, Paul and Silas praying, praised God. And they that were in prison, heard them.

26And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and the bands of all were loosed.

27And the keeper of the prison, awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the doors of the prison open, drawing his sword, would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

28But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying: Do thyself no harm, for we all are here.

29Then calling for a light, he went in, and trembling, fell down at the feet of Paul and Silas.

30And bringing them out, he said: Masters, what must I do, that I may be saved?

31But they said: Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32And they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house.

33And he, taking them the same hour of the night, washed their stripes, and himself was baptized, and all his house immediately.

34And when he had brought them into his own house, he laid the table for them, and rejoiced with all his house, believing God.

 

[Reformed]

And in contradiction to the verifiable historical writings of the early church as well. But he doesn’t care, just a Luther didn’t care that the books that he wanted to remove from the Bible contradicted his fresh new winds of doctrine he had blowing through his followers.

Please answer post 200. You guys can make all kinds of comments and post opinions, but that is quite irrelevant on this thread. These are the same exact issues that drove the Protestant Reformation. These are the same exact issues that is the line in the sand that do not allow us to unite. This is the historical reason that we have mutually exclusive gospels. What do you proclaim as the great good news of God to those who are in enmity with God? I thought all Christians are truly evangelists (brings good news - Rom 10).

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Let’s look at salvation and the gospel of God’s grace as a journey of past, present and future according to Paul. Let’s start with entrance (past for those in Christ). Let’s say your neighbor asked you the question:

Acts 16:30

“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

How does the Apostle Paul respond to this question? Try to stay within the Scriptures and the Apostle Paul.

The Marcionite heresy, anyone?

Marcion and the Pauline Epistles

Marcion was convinced that among the early apostolic leaders only Paul understood the significance of Jesus Christ as the messenger of the Supreme God. He accepted as authoritative these 10 Epistles:

* Galatians
* I Corinthians
* II Corinthians
* Romans
* I Thessalonians
* II Thessalonians
* Ephesians (which Marcion called Laodiceans)
* Colossians
* Philemon
* Philippians

which he called the Apostolikon. These became for him the source, the guarantee, and the norm of true doctrine.

But Marcion removed whatever he judged were interpolations - that is, anything that did not agree with his understanding of what Paul should have written. Examples may be found in [Evans] (pp. 643-6).

from ntcanon.org/Marcion.shtml

 

[Reformed]

The Marcionite heresy, anyone?

from ntcanon.org/Marcion.shtml

Run from the light of the Scriptures with all of your extra-biblical sources… Do you think the Protestant Reformation occured for non-essential reasons? The Reformation occured because of the light of the gospel.

2 Corinthians 4

The Light of the Gospel

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

25And at midnight, Paul and Silas praying, praised God. And they that were in prison, heard them.

26And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and the bands of all were loosed.

27And the keeper of the prison, awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the doors of the prison open, drawing his sword, would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

28But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying: Do thyself no harm, for we all are here.

29Then calling for a light, he went in, and trembling, fell down at the feet of Paul and Silas.

30And bringing them out, he said: Masters, what must I do, that I may be saved?

31But they said: Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32And they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house.

33And he, taking them the same hour of the night, washed their stripes, and himself was baptized, and all his house immediately.

34And when he had brought them into his own house, he laid the table for them, and rejoiced with all his house, believing God.

TO summarize:
The jailer believed the word of Christ that was preached to him, and he and his whole household (wife, children, servants) were all immediately baptized. He also took care of those in prison by washing their stripes and feeding them, doing unto them as unto the Lord. Perfect example of “Faith working through love” (Galatians 5:6).

 

[Reformed]

TO summarize:
The jailer believed the word of Christ that was preached to him, and he and his whole household (wife, children, servants) were all immediately baptized. He also took care of those in prison by washing their stripes and feeding them, doing unto them as unto the Lord. Perfect example of “Faith working through love” (Galatians 5:6).

No summary please, just post the Scriptures in context. Let the Word of God speak without our help.

 

[Thing]

In case it has not been mentioned already, St. Paul included and accepted completely and fully the other NT writers, like St. James, in ‘his gospel message’ when St. Paul calls St. James the brother of the Lord, one of the three pillars of the Church.
…if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? …You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only…? – St. James

I think St. Paul must be read in light of the writings of the Apostles.

 

[cfrancis]

Plese just answer post 200 if you can. The postings that are presented is not what you would proclaim to the lost, is it?

You continually move the goal posts! Very nice! Such is tantamount to an admission you can’t support your position in light of what we’ve presented.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Run from the light of the Scriptures with all of your extra-biblical sources… :shrug:Nonsense! What was being shown was that you are doing the very same thing in this thread (elevating the writings of Paul above the rest of Scripture) that a fellow named Marcion did earlier in Church history.

Do you think the Protestant Reformation occured for non-essential reasons? The Reformation occured because of the light of the gospel.

[SIGN]Amen![/SIGN] I agree 100% with that passage of Scripture! The Protestant Revolt had nothing to do with previously undiscovered (or hidden by those vile Catholics) portions of Scripture suddenly coming to light. The Scriptures were read at every Mass. It was Luther’s novel interpretations that tickled the ears of his followers, and Luther’s own struggles with scrupulosity that led to his separating himself from Christ’s Church. Yes, there were some terribly bad things being done by a very select few members of the Church, which the Church did NOT condone and the Church WAS doing something about stopping.

Interestingly enough, all one has to do is turn on TBN to see the **same thing **being done today BY PROTESTANTS under the guise of the Health and Wealth/Prosperity/Name it and Claim it choke, gag “Gospel.”

…Still waiting for that verse that has the word “Trinity” in it.

 

[Reformed]

In case it has not been mentioned already, St. Paul included and accepted completely and fully the other NT writers, like St. James, in ‘his gospel message’ when St. Paul calls St. James the brother of the Lord, one of the three pillars of the Church.
…if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? …You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only…? – St. James

I think St. Paul must be read in light of the writings of the Apostles.

Are you trying to use James 2 to nullify over half of the New Testament? Can you proclaim the gospel of God’s grace through the Epistle of James? Are you saying James uses justification in the same way that Paul uses justification? I don’t mean to be cruel or combative, but if you are using James 2 to nullify the 13 or 14 Epistles of Paul, you are doing the exact same thing done by LDS Christians and JW worshipers.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Run from the light of the Scriptures with all of your extra-biblical sources… Do you think the Protestant Reformation occured for non-essential reasons? The Reformation occured because of the light of the gospel.

2 Corinthians 4

The Light of the Gospel

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Actually, since you refuse to read it, Marcion lived in the second century, waaay before the Protestant Reformation. It appears that Protestants like yourself identify with Marcion.

Hits a little too close to home, huh?

 

[Reformed]

Nonsense! What was being shown was that you are doing the very same thing in this thread (elevating the writings of Paul above the rest of Scripture) that a fellow named Marcion did earlier in Church history. [SIGN]Amen![/SIGN] I agree 100% with that passage of Scripture! The Protestant Revolt had nothing to do with previously undiscovered (or hidden by those vile Catholics) portions of Scripture suddenly coming to light. The Scriptures were read at every Mass. It was Luther’s novel interpretations that tickled the ears of his followers, and Luther’s own struggles with scrupulosity that led to his separating himself from Christ’s Church. Yes, there were some terribly bad things being done by a very select few members of the Church, which the Church did NOT condone and the Church WAS doing something about stopping.

Interestingly enough, all one has to do is turn on TBN to see the **same thing **being done today BY PROTESTANTS under the guise of the Health and Wealth/Prosperity/Name it and Claim it choke, gag “Gospel.”

…Still waiting for that verse that has the word “Trinity” in it.

If you share and debate the truth of the Trinity with tradition as compared to Scripture with Mormons, then you don’t have much of a debate with LDS Christians. Are you saying you cannot show the doctrine of the Trinity to a Mormon through Scripture alone? Can you show the dual nature of Christ through the Scripture alone with Mormons?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

No summary please, just post the Scriptures in context. Let the Word of God speak without our help.

Precisely what I did in the first post. Are you schizophrenic or something? One minute you’re asking for a Catholic explanation of Scripture passages, the next you’re saying “No summary, please.” Make up your mind! Are there two people posting under the username “Reformed”?

Chapter and verse with the word “Trinity” please. And please limit your search to the writings of St Paul the Apostle.

 

[cfrancis]

No summary please, just post the Scriptures in context. Let the Word of God speak without our help.

In case you missed Pixie’s post:

25And at midnight, Paul and Silas praying, praised God. And they that were in prison, heard them.

26And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and the bands of all were loosed.

27And the keeper of the prison, awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the doors of the prison open, drawing his sword, would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

28But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying: Do thyself no harm, for we all are here.

29Then calling for a light, he went in, and trembling, fell down at the feet of Paul and Silas.

30And bringing them out, he said: Masters, what must I do, that I may be saved?

31But they said: **"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.**

32 And they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house.

33 **And he, taking them the same hour of the night, washed their stripes, and himself was baptized, and all his house immediately**.

34 **And when he had brought them into his own house, he laid the table for them, and rejoiced with all his house, believing God**.

Pretty clear words from Paul: Paul told the jailer to believe in Christ.
And how was the jailer to do that?
By hearing the gospel.
So, the gospel was preached to the jailer and his household; and, believing it, did as Christ commanded in Jn 3:3-5 - he and his household was baptized and then did good works (Mt 25:31-46)

 

[Reformed]

In case you missed Pixie’s post:

Pretty clear words from Paul: Paul told the jailer to believe in Christ.
And how was the jailer to do that?
By hearing the gospel.
So, the gospel was preached to the jailer and his household; and, believing it, did as Christ commanded in Jn 3:3-5 - he and his household was baptized and then did good works (Mt 25:31-46)

When was the jailer born from above, before or after he was baptized with water?

Romans 10

10:1 Brothers, [1] my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. [2]

The Message of Salvation to All

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? [3] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for

“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”

19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,

“I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”

20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,

“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

 

[cfrancis]

Are you trying to use James 2 to nullify over half of the New Testament? Can you proclaim the gospel of God’s grace through the Epistle of James? **Are you saying James uses justification in the same way that Paul uses justification? ** I don’t mean to be cruel or combative, but if you are using James 2 to nullify the 13 or 14 Epistles of Paul, you are doing the exact same thing done by LDS Christians and JW worshipers.

Exactly! James uses the same greek word Paul uses, in the same way!
I think we’ve all heard the false “horizontal/vertical” justification theory.
Tell me, if you believe James was speaking about being “justified before men” by using the example of Abraham’s offering of his son Isaac, who was present on the mount when Abraham raised the knife to slay Isaac?

You are very good at asking questions, yet appear to lack the capacity and/or will to answer them.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

If you share and debate the truth of the Trinity with tradition as compared to Scripture with Mormons, then you don’t have much of a debate with LDS Christians. Are you saying you cannot show the doctrine of the Trinity to a Mormon through Scripture alone? Can you show the dual nature of Christ through the Scirpture alone with Mormons?

I can show the doctrine, but not the word “Trinity.” I can show the doctrine of the hypostatic union, but not the phrase.

I whole-heartedly agree with the doctrines, but if one is truly “Sola Scriptura” as you claim to be, then the word “Trinity” has no place in your vocabulary because it’s not in the Bible. If the word “Trinity” is in your Bible, please post the chapter and verse, I’d love to see it. Nor will you find “hypostatic union” in the Bible, yet (I assume) you believe it to be true.

 

[cfrancis]

When was the jailer born from above, before or after he was baptized with water?

Just as Jesus says in Jn 3:3-5, the jailer was born from above when he was batpized with water - unless you can produce Scripture that tells us the jailer was born again some other way.

Romans 10

10:1 Brothers, [1] my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. [2]

The Message of Salvation to All
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 **For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” **12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

And hearing the gospel the jailer and his family believed all Jesus Christ said and did; which is why the jailer and his household were baptized to be born again.