I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes

[Reformed]

to the op,
You said you’re not ashamed of the gospel? Good! Read them again at least 10x (Saint Matthew, Saint Mark, Saint Luke, and Saint John) and NEVER skip a verse! So then you’ll know how the Apostles and early Church fathers have taught the gospels. Keep in mind that Saint Paul was led to them first and was himself taught before he was sent. 10x is easy. The apostles and early church fathers taught the gospel sooo many times over and over by words of mouth before they were inspired to write them down.
Want to become a teacher? Become a catholic. You can’t be questioned if you adhere to her teachings. I mean your authority to teach can’t be questioned.

Please refer to post 507.

 

[graceandglory]

Thanks for the reminder. Therefore, what is the gospel of God’s grace according to the Apostle Paul? Just imagine that I’m a nonbeliever. Please proclaim the gospel (good news) of God according to Apostle Paul. You can use the 13 Epistles of Paul to present the gospel to me.

I don’t want to.

I would rather use the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John to share Jesus with a non-believer.

I’m starting to think that perhaps you actually might really be ashamed of the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

As St. Paul said to the Church at Corinth,
We preach Christ crucified, to the jews a stumbling block, and to the gentiles, foolishness."
1 Cor. 1:23
What if the fullness of Truth really is in the Roman Catholic Church, what if Jesus was right when he called Peter the Rock, and said "Upon this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it? (You’ve got to admit, 2,000 years is a pretty good track record) What if you discover that for all this time you have been given an incomplete faith?

I could imagine that someone just might feel ashamed.

When converting to the Church from reformed presbyterianism, you really have to come to the end of yourself and admit you really don’t know it all.

Just a thought.

 

[Reformed]

Originally Posted by Reformed
Thanks for the reminder. Therefore, what is the gospel of God’s grace according to the Apostle Paul? Just imagine that I’m a nonbeliever. Please proclaim the gospel (good news) of God according to Apostle Paul. You can use the 13 Epistles of Paul to present the gospel to me.

I don’t want to.

I would rather use the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John to share Jesus with a non-believer.

I’m starting to think that perhaps you actually might really be ashamed of the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

As St. Paul said to the Church at Corinth,
We preach Christ crucified, to the jews a stumbling block, and to the gentiles, foolishness."
1 Cor. 1:23
What if the fullness of Truth really is in the Roman Catholic Church, what if Jesus was right when he made called Peter the Rock, and said to him that the gates of hell will not prevail against it? (You’ve got to admit, 2,000 years is a pretty good track record) What if you discover that for all this time you have been given an incomplete faith?

I could imagine that someone just might feel ashamed.

When converting to the Church from reformed presbyterianism, you really have to come to the end of yourself and admit you really don’t know it all.

Just a thought.

I don’t want to (It can’t be done). Please see post 490

 

[graceandglory]

I don’t want to (It can’t be done).

Don’t read anything into what I write.

I don’t want to. Period.

It would take time I don’t have. It’s also such a protestant way to go about something.

If I want to understand Grace according to the epistles of St. Paul, I don’t have to start from scratch and try to reconstruct for myself what holy men have already written down for us. It’s a waste of my time to do that. I (and you) would have a much better thesis if you used the writings of the Church Fathers, and Saints when attempting to understand your topic. Our resources are so vast, you will never get to the end of it in your lifetime.

That really is time that I don’t have right now.
It sounds like a thesis paper for seminary. I have other subjects that I am personally more interested in.

I. don’t. want. to. Not for any theological or doctrinal reason. It’s just not my cup of tea.

 

[RHC]

Will you admit that the Roman Catholic gospel is dependent of Sacred Tradition and cannot be supported by Scripture alone?

Dear Friend Reformed,

I respectfully disagree. The “Roman Catholic gospel,” as you put it, can be supported by sola Scriptura. Other posters have already put forth much for your perusal; as a PP said, Catholics do not believe in salvation by works. No, we affirm it is the free gift of God (see the CCC quotes if you doubt that this is Church teaching). Works are the result of grace…the “proof” in the proverbial pudding, as it were.

For example, suppose you have a person who claims to have “been saved” but lives like the Devil and refuses counsel, refuses to see Truth, refuses change? Would you not seriously question his/her salvation experience - whether there had really been a change? Anyone can say a prayer or mutter some words; the proof of the change of heart is in the actions of the person.

No one would accuse this of being “salvation by works”; why then is the Catholic view salvation by works? The CCC clearly states that GOD, not man’s works, does the saving, provides the grace. If you presume that Catholics believe the CCC (and we do)

I am no apologist, but I will attempt to address your challenge regarding the Pauline epistles tomorrow (it’s very late now). Just so you know - I am one Reformed Protestant who is “crossing the Tiber” after challenging the Catholic salvation doctrines and the CCC with * sola Scriptura *. As a Calvinist, I believed * sola Scriptura *, and I also believed the Catholic faith could not hold up against it. Imagine my surprise when I found that the Catholic teachings were far more in line with Scripture than some of my own church’s! I look forward to sharing this with you…I will attempt to begin retracing my journey tomorrow.

One last thought for the night…St. Paul is also very dear to my heart, and his epistle to the Romans is my “favorite” book, if one is allowed a favorite. It was his writings that pushed me into the Tiber, so to speak.

I will return with more…until then, peace to all here and good night.

 

[graceandglory]

I am one Reformed Protestant who is “crossing the Tiber” after challenging the Catholic salvation doctrines and the CCC with * sola Scriptura *. As a Calvinist, I believed * sola Scriptura *, and I also believed the Catholic faith could not hold up against it. Imagine my surprise when I found that the Catholic teachings were far more in line with Scripture than some of my own church’s! I look forward to sharing this with you…I will attempt to begin retracing my journey tomorrow. .

God bless you RHC. Welcome Home.
I’m so glad you happened across this thread.

Good night.

 

[Reformed]

All are invited to this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/editpost.php?do=updatepost&p=4257935

 

[Reformed]

Dear Friend Reformed,

I respectfully disagree. The “Roman Catholic gospel,” as you put it, can be supported by sola Scriptura. Other posters have already put forth much for your perusal; as a PP said, Catholics do not believe in salvation by works. No, we affirm it is the free gift of God (see the CCC quotes if you doubt that this is Church teaching). Works are the result of grace…the “proof” in the proverbial pudding, as it were.

For example, suppose you have a person who claims to have “been saved” but lives like the Devil and refuses counsel, refuses to see Truth, refuses change? Would you not seriously question his/her salvation experience - whether there had really been a change? Anyone can say a prayer or mutter some words; the proof of the change of heart is in the actions of the person.

No one would accuse this of being “salvation by works”; why then is the Catholic view salvation by works? The CCC clearly states that GOD, not man’s works, does the saving, provides the grace. If you presume that Catholics believe the CCC (and we do)

I am no apologist, but I will attempt to address your challenge regarding the Pauline epistles tomorrow (it’s very late now). Just so you know - I am one Reformed Protestant who is “crossing the Tiber” after challenging the Catholic salvation doctrines and the CCC with * sola Scriptura *. As a Calvinist, I believed * sola Scriptura *, and I also believed the Catholic faith could not hold up against it. Imagine my surprise when I found that the Catholic teachings were far more in line with Scripture than some of my own church’s! I look forward to sharing this with you…I will attempt to begin retracing my journey tomorrow.

One last thought for the night…St. Paul is also very dear to my heart, and his epistle to the Romans is my “favorite” book, if one is allowed a favorite. It was his writings that pushed me into the Tiber, so to speak.

I will return with more…until then, peace to all here and good night.

I’m looking forward to your participation.

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose [Page 49] living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

history.hanover.edu/early/trent.htm

 

[RHC]

I’m absolutely not impressed that you were a fundamental KJV Baptist. Just because you attended doesn’t mean you were born-again. You missed the whole born-again thing. You basically attended gatherings of Christ’s called out people. You were in the same building… you read the same Word of God. I highly recommend that you believe and APPLY God’s Word and be saved through FAITH ALONE in Christ’s work on the cross. It’s the ONLY way.

I was on my way to bed…then I saw this rather bold statement. Wow. You can tell whether a person is “born-again” just by a few posts on an Internet forum??? You have a unique gift…

Not sure what your Protestant background is, but it’s a pretty bold statement to presume that you know who is truly following Christ and to tell someone she is not, even when she says she is. How do you know she isn’t “born-again,” even from the Protestant viewpoint? You presume she never applied God’s truth.

Side note: she never said she didn’t believe in Christ’s work on the cross; in fact, she said the opposite. You make a very bold statement to contradict her statement of faith. That is very scary ground, to put yourself in the judgment seat of her salvation.

 

[ryanoneil]

Please see post 507.

Part of Paul’s gospel of grace includes having a diolog Reformed, but I don’t think you really want to do that. I apologize for getting frustrated and for not being charitable all the time. I think this will be my last post.

1 Cor 13
If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing. For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things. At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Peace be with you,

Ryan

 

[Reformed]

I was on my way to bed…then I saw this rather bold statement. Wow. You can tell whether a person is “born-again” just by a few posts on an Internet forum??? You have a unique gift…

Not sure what your Protestant background is, but it’s a pretty bold statement to presume that you know who is truly following Christ and to tell someone she is not, even when she says she is. How do you know she isn’t “born-again,” even from the Protestant viewpoint? You presume she never applied God’s truth.

Side note: she never said she didn’t believe in Christ’s work on the cross; in fact, she said the opposite. You make a very bold statement to contradict her statement of faith. That is very scary ground, to put yourself in the judgment seat of her salvation.

Personally, I leave the judgments to Him Who is qualified to make them.

Are you sure you responded to the right thread? I never saw the post that you responded to. BTW, could you please share your denomination? Has the “New Perspective on Paul” been taught in your church? As you may know, The New Perspective on Paul is nicknamed a Catholic Calvinism and rejects justification by faith alone. If that’s where you are comming from, then you should join the Catholic Church.

 

[RHC]

Are you sure you responded to the right thread? I never saw the post that you responded to.

Post #58. I have a bit of catching up to do on this thread, you see!

I’m not attempting to take the dialogue backward; I just was rather shocked by the statement.

 

[RHC]

Are you sure you responded to the right thread? I never saw the post that you responded to. BTW, could you please share your denomination? Has the “New Perspective on Paul” been taught in your church? As you may know, The New Perspective on Paul is nicknamed a Catholic Calvinism and rejects justification by faith alone. If that’s where you are comming from, then you should join the Catholic Church.

I don’t mind. Presbyterian Church of America. As I said, once a true Reformed Calvinist.

 

[Reformed]

Part of Paul’s gospel of grace includes having a diolog Reformed, but I don’t think you really want to do that. I apologize for getting frustrated and for not being charitable all the time. I think this will be my last post.

1 Cor 13
If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing. For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things. At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Peace be with you,

Ryan

Please forgive me for any offense. Please pray and consider joining me on:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=273731

 

[Reformed]

I don’t mind. Presbyterian Church of America.

I used to be a member at a PCA in southern CA before I moved to Oregon. Do you mind posting your church web site? Do you mind answering if your pastor is teaching the “New Perspective on Paul” nicknamed a Catholic Calvinism? As you may already know, Scott Hahn came from the PCA too. Movement from Protestantism to Roman Catholicism, and Roman Catholicism to Protestantism is dynamic (on-going). There is an increase of Protestants going to Roman Catholicism. However, there are still greater numbers leaving Roman Catholicism to Protestantism than the other way around.

 

[Reformed]

Dear Friend Reformed,

I respectfully disagree. The “Roman Catholic gospel,” as you put it, can be supported by sola Scriptura. Other posters have already put forth much for your perusal; as a PP said, Catholics do not believe in salvation by works. No, we affirm it is the free gift of God (see the CCC quotes if you doubt that this is Church teaching). Works are the result of grace…the “proof” in the proverbial pudding, as it were.

For example, suppose you have a person who claims to have “been saved” but lives like the Devil and refuses counsel, refuses to see Truth, refuses change? Would you not seriously question his/her salvation experience - whether there had really been a change? Anyone can say a prayer or mutter some words; the proof of the change of heart is in the actions of the person.

No one would accuse this of being “salvation by works”; why then is the Catholic view salvation by works? The CCC clearly states that GOD, not man’s works, does the saving, provides the grace. If you presume that Catholics believe the CCC (and we do)

I am no apologist, but I will attempt to address your challenge regarding the Pauline epistles tomorrow (it’s very late now). Just so you know - I am one Reformed Protestant who is “crossing the Tiber” after challenging the Catholic salvation doctrines and the CCC with * sola Scriptura *. As a Calvinist, I believed * sola Scriptura *, and I also believed the Catholic faith could not hold up against it. Imagine my surprise when I found that the Catholic teachings were far more in line with Scripture than some of my own church’s! I look forward to sharing this with you…I will attempt to begin retracing my journey tomorrow.

One last thought for the night…St. Paul is also very dear to my heart, and his epistle to the Romans is my “favorite” book, if one is allowed a favorite. It was his writings that pushed me into the Tiber, so to speak.

I will return with more…until then, peace to all here and good night.

---

Hello to everyone. My name is Rachel. I have been married to my wonderful husband for four years, and we have two children, ages 2 years and 6 months.

We grew up Protestant and were married in a Protestant church, but we have begun to question some of what we thought we knew about Catholics. We have been attending Mass, and we have been very impressed. My husband comes from an Irish Catholic family (his extended family), so he has had some exposure to the Catholic faith. My own experience is more limited, although my brother converted several years ago and shared much of his faith with me. I also attended Mass with my brother during his RCIA, and I felt drawn to the faith but never pursued conversion.

I suppose you could call us seekers. My husband is in the U.S. Army, and we are moving soon. We plan on attending RCIA when we get to our new duty station.

This is my story. My husband and I are Protestants, but we are currently going through RCIA. We intend to convert (Tiber Swim Team '09!), and we plan to baptize our children (ages 3 and 9 months) very soon.

This news has not been taken well by my family, the majority of whom are Protestant. My one supporter is my brother, who converted in 2004. We haven’t even told my in-laws yet; my mother-in-law grew up Catholic but left the Church to become non-denominational Protestant…she is very anti-Catholic and will not take the news well. By the way, any prayers for easing this transition would be appreciated…

I say all that to say - my husband and I are very serious about our faith, partially because of the opposition we have received.

Dear Rachel,

Thank you for your willingness to share your journey. I also thank you for your service as a military family. There is a greater sacrifce serving in the military than making a living in a civilian life.

I wanted to see where you are commng from, especially since you are currently part of a PCA Church (Reformed). As I menitoned, Scott Hahn was also PCA. I notice that many who leave Protestantism have roots somewhere in Roman Catholicism. Your husband is Irish Catholic. You call yourself a cradle Protestant too. I’m not sure your family’s opposition to your conversion is a valid reason to leave biblical Christianity. I do look forward to discussing things with you. Before we start a discussion and debate, I would like to see if you could get your husband’s permission to debate with me. I believe in the federal headship of the man of a Christian household. Therefore, I would rather debate with your husband, but your situation is different.

Lord bless you and your family,

Reformed

 

[mikeledes]

I didn’t think Paul wrote John 15, did he? We need to manage how much we can handle. I would love to discuss the Gospel of John when we are done with Paul.

I doubt Paul’s Gosepl was different from Christ’s Gospel. Jesus and Paul cannot contradict each other.

Though if you want a similar example from Paul, you have:

Romans 11:20-22

**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **

There’s no reason to fear (v. 20) when you know you will continue in God’s kindness, will not be cut off, and hence spared. The following article is a good refutation of the Calvinist response to this verse:

arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2007/10/31/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-3-the-ancient-olive-tree/

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Reformed]

I doubt Paul’s Gosepl was different from Christ’s Gospel. Jesus and Paul cannot contradict each other.

Though if you want a similar example from Paul, you have:

Romans 11:20-22

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

There’s no reason to fear (v. 20) when you know you will continue in God’s kindness, will not be cut off, and hence spared. The following article is a good refutation of the Calvinist response to this verse:

arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/2007/10/31/perseverance-of-the-saints-part-3-the-ancient-olive-tree/

God Bless,
Michael

No articles my friend, espcially from a Arminian Protetstant prespective (wrong forum site). Roman 11 needs to be understood within the context of Romans 9, 10, and 11. Paul is speaking about two groups, the nations of Israel, and the other group (Gentiles). The warning is pride within the ingrafting of the Gentiles and not individual Christians where there is no jew or gentile distinctive.

 

[Thing]

No articles my friend, espcially from a Arminian Protetstant prespective (wrong forum site). Roman 11 needs to be understood within the context of Romans 9, 10, and 11. Paul is speaking about two groups, the nations of Israel, and the other group (Gentiles). The warning is pride within the ingrafting of the Gentiles and not individual Christians where there is no jew or gentile distinctive.

Thats a horrible sentence, the red one, where did you learn english.

The warning is to individuals that the native branch was not spared and how much less so would the grafted branch be spared if they abide not in goodness.

 

[mikeledes]

No articles my friend, espcially from a Arminian Protetstant prespective (wrong forum site). Roman 11 needs to be understood within the context of Romans 9, 10, and 11. Paul is speaking about two groups, the nations of Israel, and the other group (Gentiles). The warning is pride within the ingrafting of the Gentiles and not individual Christians where there is no jew or gentile distinctive.

If the Arminians are right on this issue, I give them credit. Romans 11 is not talking about people groups. It’s talking about inidviduals. Why? Did all Jews reject Christ? If this were so, then we wouldn’t have a Peter, a John, a Paul, etc? Did all the Gentiles believe in Christ? Obviously not because then all the Gentiles Paul came in contact with would be Christian. This passage is clearly about individuals because who is grafted into the olive tree? Gentiles as a group? Then that would mean that this olive tree includes Gentile unbelievers and believers. And yet Paul specifically states who he is talking about:

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

The key verse is verse 20. Paul identifies the subject of this passage as believing Gentiles (you stand by your faith). So this passage can only refer to Gentile Christians, for only believers can be grafted into the olive tree. Hence, what Paul says in verses 21 to 22 applies to believers because only they can continue in God’s kindness and only they can be cut off from the olive tree. That link I referenced stated the following:

Calvinists have traditionally tried to resolve the difficulty in one of two ways. The first way is to say that the branches do not represent individuals, but nations. The broken off branches represent the nation of Israel, and the engrafted branches represent the Gentiles as a people group. The problem with this interpretation is that Paul is speaking of individual branches that have been broken off and grafted in to the true Israel of God. The branches clearly represent individual Jews, for the entire nation has not been rejected. There are believing Jews [the remnant] who have remained in the olive tree. The grafted in branches represent individual Gentiles as only believing Gentiles have come to enjoy the favor and election of God. It is only believing Gentiles that can be called spiritual descendants of Abraham, and it is beyond argument that not all Gentiles have embraced Christ.

God bless,
Michael