I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes

[Tonks40]

I really don’t intentionally mean to be offensive, but when I discuss the Scriptures with Roman Catholic Christians, it’s very similar to discussing the Scriptures with LDS Christians. Please let me explain. Since both LDS Christians and Roman Catholic Christians reject the Holy Scriptures as the final authority from God pertaining to all things to the Faith, they both do not come to the Scriptures to find truth. For the Mormon, truth is ultimately found through the Mormon Church. For the Roman Catholic Christian, truth is ultimately found through the Roman Catholic Church. Both religious institutions claim a form of apostolic succession to nullify the final authority and light of the Holy Scripture.

Orientation is important in looking at Scripture. You reject all forms of revelation as reveal by God and Jesus Christ and you rely solely on the Bible. You reject historical evidence that the Gospel was spread by eyewitnesses and was told not through written word, but by Tradition. When looking at Christian doctrine, if you were truly interested in what Christ taught, don’t rely on one source. Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium = balance and assurance of teachings.

I can understand why you feel why Mormon doctrine and Catholic doctrine are explained in similar ways, but you’re missing one very important aspect - the historical evidence that Christ was the one who founded the Church. Someday I hope you can bring yourself to read the Early Church Fathers (some of them taught by the Apostles) and see what they have to say about St. Paul’s teachings.

Now back to the OP. If my understanding is correct, the Roman Catholic Gospel is salvation through the 7 catholic sacraments. Our new birth is through water baptism. To make things simple, let’s leave off Hebrews unless Roman Catholicism considers Hebrews to be written by Paul as Catholic dogma.

Please proclaim the Roman Catholic gospel (good news) using the 13 Epistles of Paul. I’m saying it can’t be done. When I’m speaking about the gospel, it is the answer to the question of “Sirs, what must I do to be saved”.

Nope, salvation is through Christ. And why leave off Hebrews? Doesn’t this go against what St. Paul said to Timothy: **all **Scripture is God-inspired and therefore useful?

We all know in part. But to intentionally twist the writings of Paul to fit a person’s theology is a sin. Please pray to be teachable by God the Holy Spirit through the Scriptures. The Roman Catholic Church is not the Holy Spirit.

And I will be praying that you will someday leave your own twisted interpretation of Scripture for the fullness of the Truth.

God Bless.

 

[graceandglory]

Romans 1:16-17

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

What is the gospel of God’s grace according to the Apostle Paul?

http://christianmystics.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/sunrisecross.jpg

The Light of the Gospel

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 4

AWESOME SCRIPTURE!!! I love quoting that scripture. It brings me much comfort.

If you really want to know what GRACE is from 2,000 years of Christian History and from the perspective of the Catholic Church that Jesus founded, you should check out the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Catholics don’t park on one scriputure, but each and every Scripture is interpreted in the context of the whole gospel.

It is a beautiful inspiring scripture, but you’re right. Catholics don’t self interpret scripture, and any Catholic who knows what it is to be Catholic will look to the Christ chosen leadership of our Church for interpretation of Scripture.

Even as a reformed Protestant, you would do well, and be most enriched if you were to read what the Church Fathers and the Catholic Church has to say about grace. It is all scriptural, and it all makes sense.

I guess the most important part of what I’m trying to say is that Scripture interpretation is not up to the individual. Christ promised us that he would send the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth.

The Catholic Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth. We have 2,000 years of tradition that guides us in understanding Scriptures. The Church will be able to explain grace in this context WAY better than any layman.

Even priests and bishops need to “go to the source” to be able to respond to your question.

 

[graceandglory]

You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand,** take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. **But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
2 Peter 3

AMEN!!!

That’s Catholic Scripture you’re quoting.



Keep asking the questions. But c’mon. Don’t compare Catholicism with Mormonism. Be smarter than that. Know your Church History.

I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that you really want to know what the Catholic Church teaches about grace. Asking individual Catholics to interpret the scriptures on their own, really isn’t going to be much better than asking a protestant for his personal interpretation.

It’s not going to teach you anything about the truth of the Catholic Church, only that individuals are fallible, and we really need a Church to guide us, so that we’re “not carried away by every wind of doctrine.” That’s protestantism that encompasses “every wind of doctrine,” not Catholicism.

Right at this very website, you can click on the Home page on the top bar, next to CATHOLIC ANSWERS, go to Home, and in the left column, Click on the words Salvation, then click on the article about grace.

I did it for you, here’s the link.

catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp

You can also research Grace at this very website, by clicking on The Original Catholic Encyclopedia, and search for Grace.
I did that for you too.

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Grace

(The nice thing with Catholicism, is that it’s totally free. You don’t have to go buy all these resources at the local Christian bookstore. No one’s out to earn a buck off your quest for the truth.)

Next, you can go to the Catechism on line to research the doctrine of Grace

I did that for you:

ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=grace&xsubmit.x=0&xsubmit.y=0

Next, go to www.newadvent.org

and research grace.

Here’s just a starter:
newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm

If you like Bible Study, you will love studying Catholic theology.
It is a well so much deeper than any protestant systematic theology. We have 1500 yrs on ya!

Once you get past individual interpretation of Scripture into the truth of real Catholic teaching, you are going to find that it is all totally from Scripture, and completely inspired by the Holy Spirit.

There can’t be 50,000 inspired interpretations, only one.

Check it out.

respectfully,
graceandglory

 

[graceandglory]

We are trying to stick to the Apostle Paul on this thread. We are using Paul’s Epstiles and the book of Acts with Paul only.

Paul’s mission was to point us to Christ. I think he would be disappointed if you built your Church only on him. We need to go past Paul to get to the truth.

Catholics who know their faith are gonna have a hard time playing by the protestant idea that we can build a whole theology on sections of Scripture only.

That’s why you’re not getting the answer served to you in a protestant shaped box.

Scripture + Tradition = Inspired theology Anything less is based on individual interpretation and isn’t inspired. Jesus breathed on the Apostles and gave them the Holy Spirit to guide the Church in all truth.

The Church is the pillar and bulwark of all truth, not us, and not the bible only.

That’s one reason why Catholics believe protestants only have partial truth.

 

[graceandglory]

I really don’t think most Roman Catholics want to learn from God through the Scriptures.

Sadly, you’re probably right. The same would be equally true for “most protestants.”

Do you want to insult or do you really want to know what the Catholic Church teaches?

Have you been to a Catholic Mass? Every day all around the world Catholics attend Mass and read Scripture. Do you know anything about the Liturgy of the Hours? Many, many Catholics are devoted to regular scripture reading. I think you will find more Catholics though, devoted to Christ and praying than devoted to Scripture reading. Scripture leads us to Christ, but it isn’t Christ.

I had to realize that there will always be wheat and tares growing together when I was a protestant. That’s how it is everywhere.

 

[graceandglory]

]Please present the gospel of God’s grace using only the Epistles of Paul when you are done.

Nope, not gonna do it.
Not gonna waste my time using only partial revelation.
If you use only partial revelation, you will only get partial truth.
It’s not going to be inspired.

The Catholic Church has the fullness of revelation. Why would I want to limit my understanding and fit into a protestant shaped box?

While I could do it, I don’t want to. Knowing how protestants think, selecting and choosing some scriptures to be more important than others, and building a new doctrine on partial truth, makes me not want to go there. I know that an honest, God fearing, Christ loving person will be able to create their own doctrine on partial truth. That’s what is wrong about protestantism. Yes, that is what the protestant reformation is all about.

Scripture warns about shifting doctrine being as unstable as sand. Look at the history of protestantism. Ever changing and shifting. Look to the Catholic Church. The gates of hell will not prevail against it.

In order to answer your question, we have to do it from a protestant, non-inspired, sola scriptural, faith in our own understanding, point of view.

It can’t be done.

 

[tGette]

   		 			 				 					Originally Posted by **Reformed**

Ahhhhhhhh (That is me taking a deep sigh of relief!)

Thanks for the reminder graceandglory!

 

[graceandglory]

**The Word of God is Jesus Christ, not a book. John 1:1.

Well, maybe if it was Biblical it would be more fun**.

You are good, Pixie Dust!

Another scripture taken out of context with a whole doctrine built around it.

Thank you for using Scripture to point out the fallacy of Sola Scriptura.***

“In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. And the Word was God.”
*
**

Scripture, while totally inspired, is not God.

 

[tGette]

   		 			 				 					Originally Posted by **Pixie Dust**

I CONCUR!

I have been trying to make this point forever…it never dawned on me to simply quote John.

 

[graceandglory]

I CONCUR!

I have been trying to make this point forever…it never dawned on me to simply quote John.

That’s quite all right. It’s difficult to know what the basics are that we disagree on.

We use the same words and we think we know each others’ definitions, but unless it comes up in conversation, we don’t even know we don’t have the same definition.

I think that my secular background in linguistics really helped me jump the Tiber.

 

[Tonks40]

Nope, not gonna do it.
Not gonna waste my time using only partial revelation.
If you use only partial revelation, you will only get partial truth.
It’s not going to be inspired.

The Catholic Church has the fullness of revelation. Why would I want to limit my understanding and fit into a protestant shaped box?

While I could do it, I don’t want to. Knowing how protestants think, selecting and choosing some scriptures to be more important than others, and building a new doctrine on partial truth, makes me not want to go there. I know that an honest, God fearing, Christ loving person will be able to create their own doctrine on partial truth. That’s what is wrong about protestantism. Yes, that is what the protestant reformation is all about.

Scripture warns about shifting doctrine being as unstable as sand. Look at the history of protestantism. Ever changing and shifting. Look to the Catholic Church. The gates of hell will not prevail against it.

In order to answer your question, we have to do it from a protestant, non-inspired, sola scriptural, faith in our own understanding, point of view.

It can’t be done.

 

[Reformed]

Nope, not gonna do it.
Not gonna waste my time using only partial revelation.
If you use only partial revelation, you will only get partial truth.
It’s not going to be inspired.

The Catholic Church has the fullness of revelation. Why would I want to limit my understanding and fit into a protestant shaped box?

While I could do it, I don’t want to. Knowing how protestants think, selecting and choosing some scriptures to be more important than others, and building a new doctrine on partial truth, makes me not want to go there. I know that an honest, God fearing, Christ loving person will be able to create their own doctrine on partial truth. That’s what is wrong about protestantism. Yes, that is what the protestant reformation is all about.

Scripture warns about shifting doctrine being as unstable as sand. Look at the history of protestantism. Ever changing and shifting. Look to the Catholic Church. The gates of hell will not prevail against it.

In order to answer your question, we have to do it from a protestant, non-inspired, sola scriptural, faith in our own understanding, point of view.

It can’t be done.

Are you saying when the Apostle Paul proclaimed the gospel to the Gentiles, his gospel was incomplete? I personally think the Apostle Paul is the greatest missionary in church history.

 

[Reformed]

Are you saying when the Apostle Paul proclaimed the gospel to the Gentiles, his gospel was incomplete? I personally think the Apostle Paul is the greatest missionary in church history.

Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said,

1. “Believe in the Lord Jesus,
2. Complete the RICA course
3. Get baptized by a Catholic Priest
4. Become an official member of the Catholic Church
5. Believe that the Catholic Church is the One True Church
6. Believe that the bread and wine changes to the actual flesh and blood of Jesus.
7. Partake in the 7 Catholic Sacraments throughout your life.
8. Don’t commit a mortal sin
9. If you commit a mortal sin, partake in the Catholic sacraments
10. On your death bed, partake of the sacrament of last rites
11. After you die go to purgatory,even though Paul tells us that absent from the body is present with the Lord.
12. Have Mary intercede for you.
13. Do the rosary… and have Mary intercede for you.

and you might be saved, you and your household.”

 

[ryanoneil]

And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved.” So they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to everyone in his house. He took them in at that hour of the night and bathed their wounds; then he and all his family were baptized at once. (Act 16:31-33)

 

[Reformed]

Orientation is important in looking at Scripture. You reject all forms of revelation as reveal by God and Jesus Christ and you rely solely on the Bible. You reject historical evidence that the Gospel was spread by eyewitnesses and was told not through written word, but by Tradition. When looking at Christian doctrine, if you were truly interested in what Christ taught, don’t rely on one source. Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium = balance and assurance of teachings.

I can understand why you feel why Mormon doctrine and Catholic doctrine are explained in similar ways, but you’re missing one very important aspect - the historical evidence that Christ was the one who founded the Church. Someday I hope you can bring yourself to read the Early Church Fathers (some of them taught by the Apostles) and see what they have to say about St. Paul’s teachings.

Nope, salvation is through Christ. And why leave off Hebrews? Doesn’t this go against what St. Paul said to Timothy: **all **Scripture is God-inspired and therefore useful?
And I will be praying that you will someday leave your own twisted interpretation of Scripture for the fullness of the Truth.

God Bless.

Here’s what is strange. We have Sacred Tradition and traditon. We know that the Church Fathers contradicted each other. So, which part of the Church Fathers is Sacred Traditon or just tradition? I hope all the Roman Catholics on this site know the difference between Roman Catholic Sacred Tradition, and church tradition.

 

[Reformed]

And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved.” So they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to everyone in his house. He took them in at that hour of the night and bathed their wounds; then he and all his family were baptized at once. (Act 16:31-33)

Of course, they were baptized after they believed.

1 Corinthians 1:17

For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

 

[Reformed]

Romans 1:16-17

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

What is the gospel of God’s grace according to the Apostle Paul?

http://christianmystics.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/sunrisecross.jpg

The Light of the Gospel

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 4

Originally Posted by Reformed
Please present the gospel of God’s grace using only the Epistles of Paul when you are done.

Nope, not gonna do it.
Not gonna waste my time using only partial revelation.
If you use only partial revelation, you will only get partial truth.
It’s not going to be inspired.

In order to answer your question, we have to do it from a protestant, non-inspired, sola scriptural, faith in our own understanding, point of view.

It can’t be done.

Do we have an agreement that the gospel of God’s grace according the Apostle Paul is incomplete without Roman Catholic Sacred Tradition? The Catholic gospel cannot be supported by 1/2 of the New Testament books written by the Apostle Paul, correct? “It can’t be done” as a Roman Catholic posted.

Galatians 1

Greeting
Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— and all the brothers who are with me,

To the churches of Galatia:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

No Other Gospel

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Romans 16:25

Doxology
Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages. - The Apostle Paul

 

[ryanoneil]

Of course, they were baptized after they believed.

The baptism of entire households poses a thorny problem for your “personal and individual belief” preceding baptism mantra.

1 Corinthians 1:17

For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Your use of 1 Cor 1:17 is getting really old my friend. Paul is not minimizing the improtance of Baptism so much as stressing his primary obligation of evangelize. His words are aimed at certain Corinthians who exaggerated the role of the minister of Baptism and lost sight of the Sacrament’s purpose, which is to unite us with Christ.

Beside, we know that Paul baptised. If Christ did not send him to baptize, why did he do it?

(I baptized the household of Stephanas also; beyond that I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 1 Cor 1:16

 

[Reformed]

The baptism of entire households poses a thorny problem for your “personal and individual belief” preceding baptism mantra.

Your use of 1 Cor 1:17 is getting really old my friend. Paul is not minimizing the improtance of Baptism so much as stressing his primary obligation of evangelize. His words are aimed at certain Corinthians who exaggerated the role of the minister of Baptism and lost sight of the Sacrament’s purpose, which is to unite us with Christ.

Beside, we know that Paul baptised. If Christ did not send him to baptize, why did he do it?

(I baptized the household of Stephanas also; beyond that I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 1 Cor 1:16

I’m not baptist my friend, I’m Reformed. The promise is to you and your household (Acts 2, 1 Cor 7). Within most Reformed Churches, our infants are baptized. Our children are considered covenant children and are included in the church.

WCF

Chapter XXVIII
Of Baptism
I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ,[1] not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church;[2] but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace,[3] of his ingrafting into Christ,[4] of regeneration,[5] of remission of sins,[6] and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life.[7] Which sacrament is, by Christ’s own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.[8]

II. The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the Gospel, lawfully called thereunto.[9]

III. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but Baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.[10]

IV. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ,[11] but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.[12]

V. Although it is a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance,[13] yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it:[14] or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.[15]

VI. The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered;[16] yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongs unto, according to the counsel of God’s own will, in His appointed time.[17]

VII. The sacrament of Baptism is but once to be administered unto any person.[18]

reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

 

[Usagi]

Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said,

1. “Believe in the Lord Jesus,

Most definitely.

1. Complete the RICA course

An often superb method of education for those seeking to come into the Church, but hardly a requirement for salvation.

1. Get baptized by a Catholic Priest

Or a Protestant minister, or a lay Christian, or an atheist. There is only one baptism, not one for Catholics and one for others.

That “be baptized” is an important step in the process is easily supportable from Scripture. For adult converts in the New Testament, it almost always follows immediately after “Believe,” usually as part of the same instruction.

Also not technically required for salvation, since the desire to be baptized will suffice in cases where a person cannot receive the rite before death.

1. Become an official member of the Catholic Church

Incorporation into the Body of Christ is a natural result of the believing and being baptized. That the Body is split among mutually opposed communions is a sad reality of our times.

Also not strictly required, since non-Catholic Christians can be saved.

1. Believe that the Catholic Church is the One True Church

Again, only needed due to the sad divisions in Christianity at the present time. And again, not strictly required since non-Catholic Christians can be saved.

1. Believe that the bread and wine changes to the actual flesh and blood of Jesus.

Which falls under “believe that the words of Jesus (in Scripture, no less) are true.” Though, again, all that is necessary is not to obstinately deny any such revealed truth. Mere ignorance does not damn.

1. Partake in the 7 Catholic Sacraments throughout your life.

As aids in your sanctification, provided by Jesus Himself, yes. Not to gain salvation. Most of the sacraments can only be fruitfully participated in by one who is in the state of grace.
8. Don’t commit a mortal sin

1. If you commit a mortal sin, partake in the Catholic sacraments

Make use of the channel of forgiveness that Christ has left us, yes.

1. On your death bed, partake of the sacrament of last rites

There is no such thing as “the sacrament of last rites.” The “last rites” can include anointing of the sick, final confession, and a final Holy Communion (called “viaticum,” or “food for the journey”).

Also, the last rites are certainly not required, and many die without them.

1. After you die go to purgatory,even though Paul tells us that absent from the body is present with the Lord.

Please quote where Paul says that.

Purgatory is not necessarily a place; describing it as an event or condition may be more accurate. Indeed, it may well be the very presence of the Lord that brings about the purgation of our final imperfections and makes us into the sort of people who can live in Heaven.

1. Have Mary intercede for you.

Not necessary for salvation.

1. Do the rosary… and have Mary intercede for you.

Not necessary for salvation. The rosary is a particular form of devotion that is not even practiced in all Catholic cultures.

and you might be saved, you and your household.”

If you die in God’s friendship, you are saved and will go to Heaven, there’s no doubt about that. He has promised it and we can take His word for it.

Usagi