I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes

[Reformed]

No, problem.

I don’t know what you mean by the true gospel. Maybe we are using the same word but meaning different things.

Paul was long winded because he had to convince the Jewish-Christians in Rome that the Gentiles were included in the New Covenant. Because he wanted to use Rome as a hub for his gentile mission. He had to make a very thorough case, because many thought Jesus was exclusive savior to the Jews, and he didn’t want them run him out of town.

Call it bad news if you will. But we have to know what the problem is before we can find the solution. Especially if we are talking about Jewish-Christians who thought they had priveledged status.

I was not aware that Paul mentioned Mary in the first three chapters of Romans

Are you familar with “The New Perspective on Paul”, NT Wright, etc… trying to change the historic Protestant understanding on Paul so there can be unity between Protestants and Catholics? May is included in Romans 3 in all have sinned and Romans 5 as being united to Adam.

 

[SIA]

I forgot if you are a Protestant Christian or a Roman Catholic Christian. I did a similar thread with LDS Christians, and we knew the Mormon gospel was dependent on the extra-bibilical revelation from their apostolic succession claim. Do you think we will reach the same conclusion here? I think it is a good exercise for Catholics to understand that the Roman Catholic gospel cannot be supported by the writings of the Apostle Paul. I would like to deal with the rest of the Bible after we exhaust the writings of Paul in regards to the gospel of God’s grace. I hope we are having fun together.

I’m Anglican. I do agree with you that Paul’s writings do not support Catholic teachings. Paul teaches us that salvation comes to us through our faith in Christ and what he did for us, not what we can do for ourselves.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I’m Anglican. I do agree with you that Paul’s writings do not support Catholic teachings. Paul teaches us that salvation comes to us through our faith in Christ and what he did for us, not what we can do for ourselves.

Actually, Paul says we are saved by GRACE, through faith in Christ. The Catholic Church does not now and never did teach that we can save ourselves.

 

[Usagi]

I’m Anglican. I do agree with you that Paul’s writings do not support Catholic teachings. Paul teaches us that salvation comes to us through our faith in Christ and what he did for us, not what we can do for ourselves.

Unsurprisingly, the Catholic Church also teaches us that.

Pelagianism was condemned long, long ago, many centuries before the Reformation.

Usagi

 

[SIA]

Unsurprisingly, the Catholic Church also teaches us that.

Pelagianism was condemned long, long ago, many centuries before the Reformation.

Usagi

I don’t think so.

 

[ryanoneil]

Do you mind commenting on the doctrine of justification in Romans chapter 3 and chapter 4? I think the heart of the gospel of God’s grace proclaimed by Paul is found in Romans chapter 3 and 4. As you may know, this is what divides us. We can also include the book of Galatians to explore Paul’s teaching on justification. Maybe we are closer than I think… and again maybe not?

Is this what you are really trying to focus on?

Justification?

 

[Kscrawler]

You miss the point here. I was showing the fallacy of preaching FAITH ALONE and then adding to it so many other things that are also required. I was merely responding to BELIEVER.

 

[cfrancis]

I don’t think so.

Which part: about what the Catholic Church teaches, or about Pelagius?

 

[Kscrawler]

I’m Anglican. I do agree with you that Paul’s writings do not support Catholic teachings. Paul teaches us that salvation comes to us through our faith in Christ and what he did for us, not what we can do for ourselves.

No Catholic believes that we can do salvation for our selves. This is the point I’ve been trying to make. No one can by themselves secure salvation and the Catholic church does not teach that. If that is what you think Catholics believe then this whole thread has been a waste.

 

[ryanoneil]

Are you familar with “The New Perspective on Paul”, NT Wright, etc… trying to change the historic Protestant understanding on Paul so there can be unity between Protestants and Catholics?

It doesn’t ring a bell. Do you have a link to it?

May is included in Romans 3 in all have sinned and Romans 5 as being united to Adam.

Are you sure all means every single person?

For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life (1 Cor. 15:22)

We know that not all people have died (Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven), and we also know that not all people will live because Jesus taught us that some people will end up in hell.

Are you using the right context?

Paul doesn’t use the word “all” in Romans 5:19. He changes the word from “all” to “many” which underscores that, when Paul says “all,” he means “many.”

 

[Reformed]

Is this what you are really trying to focus on?

Justification?

Yes, no, maybe… or just the gospel of grace according to the Apostle Paul. Galatians chapter 1 is pretty tough if we have mutally exclusive gospels. BTW…doesn’t the Council of Trent use Galatians chapter 1 to condemn the Protestant Gospel?

 

[Reformed]

I’m Anglican. I do agree with you that Paul’s writings do not support Catholic teachings. Paul teaches us that salvation comes to us through our faith in Christ and what he did for us, not what we can do for ourselves.

That’s right, now I remember. I really like the 39 Articles of Faith. Don’t you have a Reformed Study Bible?

 

[cfrancis]

Yes, no, maybe… or just the gospel of grace according to the Apostle Paul. Galatians chapter 1 is pretty tough if we have mutally exclusive gospels. BTW…doesn’t the Council of Trent use Galatians chapter 1 to condemn the Protestant Gospel?

Paul is very clear about what he’s saying, as I pointed out when I went through the first three chapters of Romans. Nothing contradicts Catholic teaching.

 

[SIA]

Paul is very clear about what he’s saying, as I pointed out when I went through the first three chapters of Romans. Nothing contradicts Catholic teaching.

I was a devout Catholic for three and a half decades and I can tell you that the Catholic church and what Paul taught and preached are two different things.

 

[Reformed]

It doesn’t ring a bell. Do you have a link to it?

Are you sure all means every single person?

For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life (1 Cor. 15:22)

We know that not all people have died (Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven), and we also know that not all people will live because Jesus taught us that some people will end up in hell.

Are you using the right context?

Paul doesn’t use the word “all” in Romans 5:19. He changes the word from “all” to “many” which underscores that, when Paul says “all,” he means “many.”

We know the word all doesn’t necesarily mean all mankind in all cases. For example, we know that is not true for 1 John 2:2.

Are you saying Enoch, Eliah and Mary had not need of Jesus Christ since they were without sin?

 

[ryanoneil]

Yes, no, maybe… or just the gospel of grace according to the Apostle Paul. Galatians chapter 1 is pretty tough if we have mutally exclusive gospels.

What do you mean as far as Gal 1?

BTW…doesn’t the Council of Trent use Galatians chapter 1 to condemn the Protestant Gospel?

I don’t know.

 

[cfrancis]

I was a devout Catholic for three and a half decades and I can tell you that the Catholic church and what Paul taught and preached are two different things.

I am a Catholic for 4 decades, and you obviously never understood what the Catholic Church taught - and apparently aren’t as aware as to what the Anglican church teaches, if you think it in harmony with Paul’s (and Christ’s) message.

 

[Reformed]

Paul is very clear about what he’s saying, as I pointed out when I went through the first three chapters of Romans. Nothing contradicts Catholic teaching.

We can make subjective postings, but try to state your case using Paul’s writings.

 

[cfrancis]

We know the word all doesn’t necesarily mean all mankind in all cases. For example, we know that is not true for 1 John 2:2.

**Are you saying Enoch, Eliah and Mary had not need of Jesus Christ since they were without sin? **

Classic false dilemma: it’s either/or.
Rather, as I can only imagine you are aware, given the thinking you’ve presented here, the truth is both/and: the only way Enoch and Elijah do not die is by the power and grace of God; the only way Mary is conceived without sin is because she was saved by Jesus Christ.
But such is away from the discussion of Paul. Any comments on the first three chapters of Romans?

 

[SIA]

I am a Catholic for 4 decades, and you obviously never understood what the Catholic Church taught - and apparently aren’t as aware as to what the Anglican church teaches, if you think it in harmony with Paul’s (and Christ’s) message.

your opinion.