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VanitasVanitatum
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FiveLinden isn’t even a Christian.
I am planning on attending Mass at an SSPX chapel with a conservative friend
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FiveLinden
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I imagine each are incredulous a) that the SSPX thinks the ordinary form is ‘evil’ and 2) that Catholics attend SSPX services nonetheless. I imagine each is able to manage their incredulity and continues to try to return SSPXers to the Church. I don’t have a horse in this race.I’m not a believer. But I am fascinated by belief itself and the ability to think oneself Catholic while taking part in ceremonies of an organisation that thinks the celebration of the heart of your religion is ‘evil’ is to me an extraordinary thing.
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TheMortenBay
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It won’t happen during Mass. Unless you go to coffee afterwards, no scandal. Some SSPX adherents and certain communities have a tendency to oversimplify the problems of the Novus Ordo and the Church, though that’s not going to happen during mass.
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FiveLinden
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I thought the Eucharist was considered by all Catholics, including adherents of the SSPX, to be the heart of the faith.
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FiveLinden
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I have not said that anyone is not Catholic. But if I wanted to do so I feel able to make such an observation with appropriate caveats.
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FiveLinden
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What relevance has that?
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FiveLinden
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I don’t place myself above the Pope. I very much appreciate the openness of CAF to people who are not Catholic.
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VanitasVanitatum
Guest
It’s different whan an nonbeliever says things that Catholics aren’t supposed to and it could clear up misconceptions that can arise in the future.
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FiveLinden
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What were they? I simply pointed out that the SSPX considers the ordinary form of the Mass to be ‘evil’.
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FiveLinden
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Ummm - no I didn’t.
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catholicworker1922
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That is not all you said, and anyone who reads the thread can see that. Please let me be now. I think you’ve done quite enough…
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FiveLinden
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But I have been very clear in this thread and in all others where it is relevant that I am an unbeliever. I don’t think in this thread that I have said anything ‘Catholics aren’t supposed to’. Apart from saying I am an unbeliever that is.
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FiveLinden
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I think if you say I have made ‘horrible accusations and judgements’ and have done something ‘uncharitable and scandalous’ you should be willing to explain what you mean. The Catholic tradition of debate usually does not consist of the mere firing off of adjectives.
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mrsdizzyd
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You are incorrect to suggest that the Holy Father does not have any reservations about the SSPX and it’s thoughts on the mass. If he did not have any reservations, the SSPX would no longer be irregular. Instead, they would enjoy the same status as the FSSP and the ICKSP.FiveLinden:
Why doesn’t the Pope feel the same way you feel about this topic? Or the Pope Emeritus? Please explain.
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catholicworker1922
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But I did not suggest this. However, I will note that the dialogue has nothing to do with the Mass but with religious liberty.
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mrsdizzyd
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Yes, and this insistence on preaching that the OF is evil is but one example of obstinance amongst the SSPX clergy. This obstinance and lack of docility to legitimate authority is what keeps the SSPX from becoming regularized.mrsdizzyd:
But I did not suggest this. However, I will note that the dialogue has nothing to do with the Mass but with religious liberty.
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catholicworker1922
Guest
Not according to the Vatican. They stated that it is the acceptance of a specific Vatican II document at this time. That is why the PCED was abolished and the issue was transferred to the CDF. What you stated is an invention of yours and not in line with the explicit statements of the SSPX and Vatican following their most recent discussions.
What you are expressing is your personal judgment and feeling and not anything to do with the CDF. That is a fact. It is not up for debate. The stumbling blocks have been made clear. Please avoid conflating your opinions with the authority of the Vatican.
What you are expressing is your personal judgment and feeling and not anything to do with the CDF. That is a fact. It is not up for debate. The stumbling blocks have been made clear. Please avoid conflating your opinions with the authority of the Vatican.
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mrsdizzyd
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Obstinance and lack of docility to legitimate authority, as I said. The fruits of this pervade the organization.
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catholicworker1922
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According to you, but not to the CDF or Pope Francis. Your tone is not helpful for building bridges. We must attempt to be accepting of others, at the very least as much as Pope Francis is. He is our model and our Father, and you are doing him and all Catholics a disservice with this attitude and judgementalness.
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mrsdizzyd
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We can be accepting of dialogue without attempting to magic away the very real and concrete problems that persist between the SSPX and the Church.
At the heart of those concrete problems is the obstinance of the SSPX clergy. I’m sorry if that makes you uncomfortable, but it is the reality of the situation.
The SSPX could be regularized today if they simply made themselves docile to the legitimate authority of the Church.
Anyway, as I stated in my first reply, this isn’t really something worth arguing over. You’ve clearly made up your mind. To each his own. I remain fully, and without reservation or doctrinal quibbles, with the Church.
At the heart of those concrete problems is the obstinance of the SSPX clergy. I’m sorry if that makes you uncomfortable, but it is the reality of the situation.
The SSPX could be regularized today if they simply made themselves docile to the legitimate authority of the Church.
Anyway, as I stated in my first reply, this isn’t really something worth arguing over. You’ve clearly made up your mind. To each his own. I remain fully, and without reservation or doctrinal quibbles, with the Church.
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