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josie_L
Guest
Ok, I’m going to have to use “lawyer” lingo, what motive would the followers have if what they would eventually skew would endanger their lives and those whom they loved?
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
we don’t have any verification that the original promulgators of Christianity (i.e. Peter and Paul) actually did lose their lives in support of their alleged faith. There’s no recorded history (beyond things written over a century after these events allegedly occurred).
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josie_L
Guest
What about the accounts by other sources citing the killings of Christians (this can be found in your average World History textbook) during Nero’s time? This was about 66 A.D. and around the time that Peter and Paul were said to have been killed. Also, we have the bones of Saint Peter.
P.S. I would have to look into this matter more deeply, I am sure I will find something recorded in history on the demise of the earliest Christians.
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josie_L
Guest
Persecution under Nero, 64-68 A.D.
Main article: Great Fire of Rome
The first documented case of imperially-supervised persecution of the Christians in the Roman Empire begins with Nero (37-68). In 64 A.D., a great fire broke out in Rome, destroying portions of the city and economically devastating the Roman population. Nero himself was suspected as the arsonist by historian Suetonius, claiming he played the lyre and sang the ‘Sack of Ilium’ during the fires. In his Annals, Tacitus (who claimed Nero was in Antium at the time of the fire’s outbreak), stated that “to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [or Chrestians[5]] by the populace” (Tacit. Annals XV, see Tacitus on Jesus).
**Who is Tacitus? **
Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus (ca. 56 – ca. 117) was a senator and a historian of the Roman Empire. The surviving portions of his two major works—the Annals and the Histories—examine the reigns of the Roman Emperors Tiberius, Claudius, Nero and those who reigned in the Year of the Four Emperors. These two works span the history of the Roman Empire from the death of Augustus in AD 14 to (presumably) the death of emperor Domitian in AD 96. There are enormous lacunae in the surviving texts, including one four books long in the Annals.
P.S. I only mentioned that the followers of Christ were persecuted, as such if they were persecuted as early as 60 A.D. then suffice it to say that Paul and Peter were in danger of being persecuted for their beliefs in Christ as well. I don’t doubt that if Nero was going to attack Christianity he was going to go after those who were it’s strongest defenders.
Here is what I found written by Clement of Rome:
In his Letter to the Corinthians (Chapter 5), written c. 80-98, speaks of Peter’s martyrdom in the following terms: “Let us take the noble examples of our own generation. Through jealousy and envy the greatest and most just pillars of the Church were persecuted, and came even unto death… Peter, through unjust envy, endured not one or two but many labours, and at last, having delivered his testimony, departed unto the place of glory due to him.”
Again, what motive would such Christians have to reinvent Jesus, only to find themselves in hot water for doing so, because you see they were hated for the fact that they would not kowtow to the emperor (as they only had one God), and of course, were misunderstood, as being cannabalistic, in that the non-believers mistook the eucharist to be literally, a cannibalistic orgy of human flesh and blood. Also, it was their steadfastness to the reality of the resurrection that disallowed them to recant their faith when confronted with the threat of death. Why would they (earliest Christians) endanger themselves with beliefs that were made up and so as to suffer persecution not only for themselves but their loved ones. Why were they adamant in believing Jesus resurrected?
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Ross09
Guest
It’s in the general tone of your posts. Perhaps it is because what is typed on a forum doesn’t have an audible voice behind the text, but statements about people being “programmed”, “superstitious”, and the fact that you believe in “nothing” and most of the posts of yours that I have read have little to contribute other than you seem to believe religious people are unintelligent brainwashed fools…I don’t know, somehow I read a little bit of animosity. What else should I glean from your posts? You are here to spread doubt, right? It seems apparent you aren’t here to ask questions or learn about religion since you already are sure none of it is true. Your “rebuttals” in response to why people have faith are mostly opinion based. That makes me think you are wanting to be heard (“no one here will listen to me…” ). But maybe since I’m religious, it’s just my uneducated mind stereotyping you since you have left the Church…that must be it.
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Xochitl_Guzman
Guest
Are you serious? There have been many miracles today… God has many ways to show that he’s alive… I can honestly say that God has reached out to me and called me to him.
I hope that one day you’ll look for God’s mercy… because trust me you’ll find it.
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
examples please?Are you serious? There have been many miracles today… God has many ways to show that he’s alive… I can honestly say that God has reached out to me and called me to him.
I hope that one day you’ll look for God’s mercy… because trust me you’ll find it.
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josie_L
Guest
Note: not for the faint-hearted
Well, this is just one example of how God is merciful and works towards saving each and everyone of us:
DARTMOUTH – A native son and newspaper carrier for The Standard-Times in Falmouth, Howard Storm went on to earn a master’s degree from the University of California, Berkeley, and for 20 years was an arts professor at Northern Kentucky University. An avowed atheist, he believed that there was no such thing as life after death – until the day in 1985 when he died and went to hell.
Speaking to about 125 people at Smith Mills Church last week, Mr. Storm became very emotional, often stopping to compose himself, as he described his near-death experience, which transformed his life.
In 1985, Mr. Storm, 38, and his wife, Beverly, were in Paris on the last day of an art tour. Buckled over by searing pain in the middle of his stomach, he was rushed to the hospital. Awaiting emergency surgery, he knew he was dying. He said good-bye to his wife and drifted into darkness.
Standing up, he realized he was between two hospital beds. He looked at Beverly, who was motionless, staring at the floor, sitting in the chair next to his bed. He spoke to her, but she didn’t seem to hear.
As he bent over to look at the face of the body in the bed, he was horrified to see the resemblance that it had to his own face. But he knew that was impossible because he was standing over the person and looking at him.
Off in the distance, outside the room in the hall, he heard voices calling him. They were pleasant voices, male and female, young and old, calling to him in English.
“Come out here,” they said. “Don’t you want to get better?”
He stepped out into the hall, full of anxiety. The area seemed to be light but very hazy, and he couldn’t make out any details.
He followed them shuffling along in his bare feet with the memory of pain in his belly, yet feeling very much alive. The fog thickened as they went on, and it became gradually darker.
Overwhelmed with hopelessness, he told them he would go no farther and that they were liars. He could feel their breath on him as they shouted and snarled insults.
Then they began to push and shove him about, and he began to fight back. A wild frenzy of taunting, screaming and hitting ensued. As he swung and kicked at them, they bit him.
Even though he couldn’t see anything in the darkness, he was aware there were dozens or hundreds of them all around and over him and that his attempts to fight back only provoked greater merriment.
They began to tear off pieces of his flesh, and he realized that he was being taken apart and eaten alive, methodically, slowly, so that their entertainment would last as long as possible. In that wretched state he lay there in the darkness.
Suddenly remembering a prayer from childhood Sunday School class, he said, “Yea though I walk in the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with me.”
To his amazement, the cruel merciless beings were incited to rage by his prayer. They screamed at him, 'There is no God! Nobody can hear you!" But at the same time they were backing away. He realized that saying things about God was actually driving them away, and he became more forceful. They became more rabid, cursing and screaming against God, but in time, they retreated back into the distant gloom beyond his hearing.
Alone, destroyed, and yet painfully alive in this horrible place, he yelled out into the darkness, “Jesus, save me.”
Far off in the darkness, he saw a p(name removed by moderator)oint of light like the faintest star in the sky. The star became brighter and brighter. As it came closer, he realized that he was right in its path, and he might be consumed by its brilliance.
This was a living being approximately 8 feet tall and surrounded by an oval of radiance. The brilliant intensity of the light penetrated his body. Ecstasy swept away the agony. Tangible hands and arms gently embraced him and lifted him up. He slowly rose up into the presence of the light, and the torn pieces of his body miraculously healed before his eyes.
After his words of personal witness, Mr. Storm answered questions for an additional two hours.
“He told me that he has given this talk hundreds of times, but whenever he describes these creatures, he just comes apart,” said the Rev. Michael Robinson, pastor of Smith Mills Church.
After Mr. Storm’s near-death experience, he entered United Theological Seminary and was ordained as a minister of the United Church of Christ. Since 1991 he has been pastor of Zion United Church of Christ in Cincinnati. He documented his near-death experience in the book “My Descent into Death and the Message of Love which Brought Me Back,” published in 2000.
Earlier in the day, the Rev. Storm spoke to about 30 area faith leaders at Smiths Mills Church on the topic “Bringing Passion of the Gospel into City Ministry.”
“Jesus weeps for New Bedford,” he said. “He can heal addictions, broken relationships and poverty. I broke every one of the Ten Commandments. Jesus can fix what’s wrong with us.”
archive.southcoasttoday.com/daily/01-04/01-31-04/c04rg223.htm
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
honestly my reasons for being here have evolved (though they’re not quite as complicated as you infer). At first I was in my hotel room bored (on a business trip far from home), found this site (I can’t even remember how at this point) and checked it out – deciding to register essentially to entertain myself by what seemed like might be interesting discussion.It’s in the general tone of your posts. Perhaps it is because what is typed on a forum doesn’t have an audible voice behind the text, but statements about people being “programmed”, “superstitious”, and the fact that you believe in “nothing” and most of the posts of yours that I have read have little to contribute other than you seem to believe religious people are unintelligent brainwashed fools…I don’t know, somehow I read a little bit of animosity. What else should I glean from your posts? You are here to spread doubt, right? It seems apparent you aren’t here to ask questions or learn about religion since you already are sure none of it is true. Your “rebuttals” in response to why people have faith are mostly opinion based. That makes me think you are wanting to be heard (“no one here will listen to me…” ). But maybe since I’m religious, it’s just my uneducated mind stereotyping you since you have left the Church…that must be it.
Now I concede it’s evolved into somewhat of an intellectual competitive sport (but of course that goes both ways … not that there’s anything wrong with that, at least in my view, I’m just pointing out the obvious).
Do I have some level of hostility toward religion? I guess it’s hard for any atheist to say he or she doesn’t have some level of hostility toward religion (though at the same token some of us do see a degree of value in religion as well … so it’s not unbridled hostility by any means). The hostility (frankly hostility is probably too strong a word) is because in our view religion infuses irrational presumptions into our decision making process (speaking of mankind in general).
Moreover, the false comfort of a fictitious eternal life steers our hope away from real science and redirects it toward the irrational and untrue. If I were to say science and our government should invest tens of billions in life extension medical research, the common religious response would be “I want to play god.” In fact I remember hearing priests and pastors say god created us mortal for a reason (because if we, in our current sinful human form, were immortal … we would eventually devour each other). In other words it’s a religious system that presupposes limitations on our activity and progress without any empirical basis. So religion does cause harm and obstruct progress; therefore it should be challenged and its influence over society must be tempered.
I never really thought about this issue as much as I have over this last week or two that I’ve been posting here … but I am now more convinced than ever of my convictions.
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josie_L
Guest
It’s funny because I sometimes feel that same way about science. For example, let’s substitute religion for science in that sentence I emboldened above:
So science does cause harm (when it is not confined to the ethical) and has/will obstruct progress (when science created the atomic/hydrogen bomb one has to wonder what progress there was/is in that); therefore it should be challenged (because it will seek to progress humanity right out of existence if not challenged by an outside source) and its influence over society must be tempered (otherwise morality has we know it will be controlled and manipulated for the sake of “progress”).
P.S. I only have to mention one word “eugenics”, to demonstrate how science can actually deviate from the moral and cause massive suffering.
I too have had my faith/convictions reinforced by your presence, thanks.
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Ross09
Guest
I appreciate your honesty, and hope you will continue to question. The above post comes across without the sarcasm and haughtiness that I have read in your other posts (maybe not intended, but that’s how they sound to me
). You don’t have to care what I think obviously, but personally I would enjoy reading your posts if they contained more of the above attitude. If you feel like you have been met with responses that characterize you as angry/bitter/whatever, maybe that would happen less if you posted more of this kind of post. That’s just my take on it. I hope you find what you are looking for. 
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FK04US
Guest
This exchange of ideas is a proof that human beings, even the ones the deny God, are always longing for Him. Some may deny Him, others may want to be closer to Him, but we always go back to God. Fascinating. Fortunately, we have the prodigal son parable, He will always be waiting to give us a hug once we decide to go back to His house.
To the OP, the Presbyterian teen, thank you for considering joining our faith. I would just like to add the following. We are in this faith journey to pursue HAPPINESS, here and now, and in eternity. It is not about obtaining pleasure, or doing good works with the idea of getting a compensation in the afterlife. It is about being close to God now and forever, because there is nothing greater than that. Not money, not knowledge, not power or sex. None of them makes us whole, God does. And He found His Church so we can have a flavor of His kingdom on Earth.
May God bless you in your journey.
To the OP, the Presbyterian teen, thank you for considering joining our faith. I would just like to add the following. We are in this faith journey to pursue HAPPINESS, here and now, and in eternity. It is not about obtaining pleasure, or doing good works with the idea of getting a compensation in the afterlife. It is about being close to God now and forever, because there is nothing greater than that. Not money, not knowledge, not power or sex. None of them makes us whole, God does. And He found His Church so we can have a flavor of His kingdom on Earth.
May God bless you in your journey.
J
jhcooper
Guest
I converted to Catholicism when I was 18, almost 50 years ago and have never regretted my decision. You have had some excellent advice in this thread. My advice is to understand the church you are leaving as well as understanding the Catholic Church. You are wise to study the early church fathers and to work with your parish priest, as did I, so long ago. You are to be commended for your seriousness at such a young age. My parents were most supportive, I am sure yours will be as well. Good luck and stay in touch. cooperjon@sbcglobal.net, El Paso, Tx.
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
huh? I guess we can’t all be good at philosophy …
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
Eugenics was certainly misapplied during the early part of last century, however, the basic concept (genetic improvement of our species) is a good one; and it’s still alive and well.It’s funny because I sometimes feel that same way about science. For example, let’s substitute religion for science in that sentence I emboldened above:
So science does cause harm (when it is not confined to the ethical) and has/will obstruct progress (when science created the atomic/hydrogen bomb one has to wonder what progress there was/is in that); therefore it should be challenged (because it will seek to progress humanity right out of existence if not challenged by an outside source) and its influence over society must be tempered (otherwise morality has we know it will be controlled and manipulated for the sake of “progress”).
P.S. I only have to mention one word “eugenics”, to demonstrate how science can actually deviate from the moral and cause massive suffering.
I too have had my faith/convictions reinforced by your presence, thanks.
When a woman goes to a fertility clinic and selects male sperm from a male with certain quality traits she deems desirable that’s a form of eugenics. We learned that smoking while pregnant can lead to certain defects … prenatal care can be viewed as a very rudimentary form of eugenics. Let’s be honest with ourselves, it’s only a matter of time before we’re able to test for genetic traits in DNA (we already can to a large degree), and such testing will slowly become more and more common place (particularly when we’re able to correct genetic problems). Obviously most won’t volunteer for a genetic test now because it has no utility. What if I discovered there’s a 5% chance my future child could have a birth defect, will that prevent me from having kids? No of course not, it would just mentally torture me (so again, why would I do it). However, if upon discovering that information medical science could somehow correct the problem … now we enter a new paradigm.
The Catholic church will complain about it … but it won’t matter.
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FK04US
Guest
Maybe … Are you? What are you longing for? What brings you here? What are you trying to tell us? I think that God is using you so the rest of us dig more in our faith. Thank you for helping us to get of our chairs and inquire more about our faith. It is not about philosophy or science or catechism, it is about how we can use knowledge to have better lives, meaning, how we can use them to be closer to God. And the OP is doing what God is telling him in order to reach happiness. I am happy for him, because he is listening. Sometimes as we age, we stop listening and believe that we are our own God. But deep down we know that we are not.
Best wishes for you.
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
I cut it off here (I didn’t want to waste space by reposting the entire article). But I mean come on … this could easily be (and I believe it is) psychological delusion or a near death dream. Do you know how long the brain lives after the heart stops? For hours … so this is just preposterous.
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
You assume that deep down everyone knows we’re not our own gods. I have empirical evidence that your statement is logically fallacious … I have no such deep inclinations (and I suspect there’s many like me). I’m not sure how you can make such blanket statements about others whom you have no idea how they might think. Honestly, sorry to sound callous here … but it sounds like a very typical religious maxim that really amounts to groundless speculation and wishful thinking?
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cathopologist
Guest
Come on guys, leave the poor kid’s thread alone. humble_in_doubt, i would like to invite you to this thread, along with the others involved here.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
in the end the CC is right. She is always right in the end. just like the pill, abortion,…and others. now we can see how right she has been all along.
"Let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the
Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached
by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded;
and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian."
St. Athanasius, Letter to Serapion of Thmuis, 359 A.D…
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