i am presbyterian i want to convert ..

[wisdomseeker]

Scandinavia comes to mind! Japan is also pretty close. In fact the countries with the lowest crime rates, highest quality of life, etc. tend to be overwhelmingly non-theistic.

Moreover, when you reference god’s laws … there’s little theists and atheists disagree on with regard to the definition of desirable virtues. We simply understand that these ideas were around far longer than religion or belief in any supernatural, invisible, intelligent, and omnipotent power.

i understand. do they explain where all this come from? or they just know they exist but cannot explain where it comes from?

 

[wisdomseeker]

respectfully … I probably won’t watch it. I spent most of my life as a Catholic & I’ve studied theology ad nausea. Plus, I’m hungry, need to plan the rest of weekend (I worked hard this week & it’s play time), and I’m watching FOX news right now (which is talking about our real problems … like our idiotic march toward socialism).

i just had steak, rice and vegetables while watching EWTN. sorry i didnt offer it to you. i am not able to send food through the computer yet.

funny you mentioned you worked hard this week. during the Bible study Cavin was talking about the Exodus. how the egiptians kept the hebrew people working all the time so they would not have time to worship God. then he compared to our days. how this society is keeping ua busy to the point that many stop going to Church to serve God. and how this keeping people busy are keeping people more and more away from God. something for you to think about it.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

i just had steak, rice and vegetables while watching EWTN. sorry i didnt offer it to you. i am not able to send food through the computer yet.

funny you mentioned you worked hard this week. during the Bible study Cavin was talking about the Exodus. how the egiptians kept the hebrew people working all the time so they would not have time to worship God. then he compared to our days. how this society is keeping ua busy to the point that many stop going to Church to serve God. and how this keeping people busy are keeping people more and more away from God. something for you to think about it.

yes it must be a capitalist conspiracy against god

 

[wisdomseeker]

yes it must be a capitalist conspiracy against god

why not?
the egiptians did it. are you saying that we are better than they are? all i see are a bunch of people running around doing things for money so they can buy more and more things. after those things are no longer usefull, they get more and more…and that is the society we living in today. at the end of day you come home tired and frustrated. talking about being free from slavery. how are you free? you worked all day today knowing that tomorrow you have to go back and do it all over again and again. one day you probably look back and say: what have i done with all my time all these years?

 

[jam070406]

yes it must be a capitalist conspiracy against god

Or the spirit of antichrist against God.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

why not?
the egiptians did it. are you saying that we are better than they are? all i see are a bunch of people running around doing things for money so they can buy more and more things. after those things are no longer usefull, they get more and more…and that is the society we living in today. at the end of day you come home tired and frustrated. talking about being free from slavery. how are you free? you worked all day today knowing that tomorrow you have to go back and do it all over again and again. one day you probably look back and say: what have i done with all my time all these years?

I work 40 or 50 hours per week. Were our ancestors any better off (though they were much more religious)? They had to hunt and gather their own food, constantly gather wood for heating and cooking, they had no car so they had to walk or use horses for transportation, indeed it seems our hyper religious predecessors worked much harder & longer than we do.

There’s no capitalist conspiracy now … just like the Exodus story isn’t true (there’s no record of it in Egyptian history anywhere). It’s just ancient mythology (albeit good and interesting stories … but just stories all the same).

 

[jam070406]

I work 40 or 50 hours per week. Were our ancestors any better off (though they were much more religious)? They had to hunt and gather their own food, constantly gather wood for heating and cooking, they had no car so they had to walk or use horses for transportation, indeed it seems our hyper religious predecessors worked much harder & longer than we do.

There’s no capitalist conspiracy now … just like the Exodus story isn’t true (there’s no record of it in Egyptian history anywhere). It’s just ancient mythology (albeit good and interesting stories … but just stories all the same).

Were they slaves to credit?

 

[wisdomseeker]

I work 40 or 50 hours per week. Were our ancestors any better off (though they were much more religious)? They had to hunt and gather their own food, constantly gather wood for heating and cooking, they had no car so they had to walk or use horses for transportation, indeed it seems our hyper religious predecessors worked much harder & longer than we do.

There’s no capitalist conspiracy now … just like the Exodus story isn’t true (there’s no record of it in Egyptian history anywhere). It’s just ancient mythology (albeit good and interesting stories … but just stories all the same).

no worries than.
no cars, no worry about not having gasoline 2 years from now. no worry about not having money for retirement because your money is in the hands of a few crooks.
no worry about having money to pay the bills every day. i guarantee not much worries than. have you not heard about those who killed their wives their children themselves during this recession? the pressure goes on.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

no worries than.
no cars, no worry about not having gasoline 2 years from now. no worry about not having money for retirement because your money is in the hands of a few crooks.
no worry about having money to pay the bills every day. i guarantee not much worries than. have you not heard about those who killed their wives their children themselves during this recession? the pressure goes on.

and I bet many of them were faithful Christians? So what’s the point here …

 

[jam070406]

and I bet many of them were faithful Christians? So what’s the point here …

That modern society is being crushed under the yoke of credit, bills & inflation that didn’t exist in the past.

 

[wisdomseeker]

and I bet many of them were faithful Christians? So what’s the point here …

the point is all this will be gone someday. do you know what is going to happen to you tomorrow? you probably do not. you seem to ignore that there are many things in this life we cannot control. changes of events that are beyond our control. thinks that happens and bring changes into peoples lives. the lack of compassion blinds people to not see or understand others. i dont know how good you had all your life, the fact is that not everyone have the same. and this makes up our society, people from all walks of life. we are not able to know for sure exactly what it is that we are doing. so we must one way or another come to the realization that there is a greater power above all this.
you rely on yourself for everything, very tiredsome. i on the other hand rely on a greater power beyond my understanding which i do not require to see yet i believe and have the desire to obey.

 

[wisdomseeker]

That modern society is being crushed under the yoke of credit, bills & inflation that didn’t exist in the past.

that is right. these are only things that we see today. how about those that we have not yet seen but is yet to come.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

to respond to both points … sure there are things we have today our predecessors didn’t have to deal with (as you said credit cards, bills, and so on). Obviously when we balance that against a primitive existence it seems we have far less pressure today then days gone by (and of course we work much less, evidence of that can be seen in the ever expanding American waste line).

With regard to wisdomseeker … yeah of course there are things outside of our control. I’ll concede the universe is somewhat deterministic. I didn’t birth myself, so I can thank my parents for being here. They didn’t birth themselves, so they have my grandparents to thank, and so on. I suppose I could have born an Ethiopian, but thankfully I wasn’t (though arguably if I was born somewhere else then I wouldn’t be I … but I digress).

But really … what does this have to with anything? There’s only one other option besides living in this somewhat deterministic universe, and that’s dying (and I for one like option A ).

 

[jam070406]

to respond to both points … sure there are things we have today our predecessors didn’t have to deal with (as you said credit cards, bills, and so on). Obviously when we balance that against a primitive existence it seems we have far less pressure today then days gone by (and of course we work much less, evidence of that can be seen in the ever expanding American waste line).

With regard to wisdomseeker … yeah of course there are things outside of our control. I’ll concede the universe is somewhat deterministic. I didn’t birth myself, so I can thank my parents for being here. They didn’t birth themselves, so they have my grandparents to thank, and so on. I suppose I could have born an Ethiopian, but thankfully I wasn’t (though arguably if I was born somewhere else then I wouldn’t be I … but I digress).

But really … what does this have to with anything? There’s only one other option besides living in this somewhat deterministic universe, and that’s dying (and I for one like option A ).

I completely disagree. We live in a society now where it is more likely that a person works multiple jobs, or both spouses work, just to pay bills. That is, if you have a job nowadays.

 

[Peter_J]

You are correct that you should obey your parents. That does not mean that you cannot start to study the Faith. Once you are a little older, you can convert.

Hi lesonal,

I know I’m coming really late to this discussion, but I just wanted to chime in that it could actually take 3 years just to decide between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

 

[wisdomseeker]

to respond to both points … sure there are things we have today our predecessors didn’t have to deal with (as you said credit cards, bills, and so on). Obviously when we balance that against a primitive existence it seems we have far less pressure today then days gone by (and of course we work much less, evidence of that can be seen in the ever expanding American waste line).

With regard to wisdomseeker … yeah of course there are things outside of our control. I’ll concede the universe is somewhat deterministic. I didn’t birth myself, so I can thank my parents for being here. They didn’t birth themselves, so they have my grandparents to thank, and so on. I suppose I could have born an Ethiopian, but thankfully I wasn’t (though arguably if I was born somewhere else then I wouldn’t be I … but I digress).

But really … what does this have to with anything? There’s only one other option besides living in this somewhat deterministic universe, and that’s dying (and I for one like option A ).

i realize we are off topic. sorry.

humble in doubt.

it has a lot to do with everything. i see smoke in this world. where there is smoke, there is fire. then, what happens? it all goes out in smoke. everything you have worked so hard to built, everything you see are no longer there. all there is left is what you cannot see and what you cannot see is what can save you.

too bad you dont have the option to live forever in this world. one day all come to an end and you cannot stop it. where do you go from there? it is determined by the One you refuse to believe. if you have a soul, then your soul will suffer the consequences.

i am curious how you stumbled upon this forum. how did you ended up here. i know God is calling you. you heart is hardened. we Catholics love you very much.

 

[josie_L]

I think it’s a fair consideration to abort **a child **who **a potential parent ** knows for certain will never become a productive human (and will always require enormously expensive care).

Humble, I asked what you would do? And you may think I’m quibbling but I am not, I think as a lawyer, you can understand why it’s important for me to know what you would do in such a situation?

Obviously once such a person is born we must have compassion and care for them in ways that take care to preserve their human dignity.

How can such a person be born if they are to be aborted? If you are trying to appease me (because of my stance as a Catholic) with this statement, it’s not working. It is just simply rhetoric.

However, striving for genetic evolution (and eliminating recessive genes from the gene pool) isn’t a bad idea if done gradually and respectful of human freedom (and obviously very carefully).

“Whoever, ignores or despises the laws of race . . . place an obstacle in the victorious path of the superior race and by so doing, he interferes with a prerequisite condition for all human progress.”

Do you want to know who said this? Take a guess.

As for stating that we should obviously proceed very carefully, I think we’ve established that your interpretation of what “very carefully” is is different from mine.

I would rather see genetic science advance to the point where we can improve ourselves without drastic measures like abortion;

Hah, tell that to Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood. She’d roll over in her grave for sure, what’s left of her.

but I do understand a couple who makes a decision to abort a child who will be an immense burden to society (and themselves), and I respect their right to do so.

I don’t want to judge anyone who aborts a child for this reason, however, I do not respect them for doing it. As for stating such children are an “immense” burden to society, why don’t you speak to the families of those who chose to keep these “burdensome” children?

I know this sounds like a harsh view to a Catholic, but any society is only as strong as its citizens. For humans our genetic disposition plays a strong role in individual fortitude (whether physical or intellectual). Therefore, I don’t find anything wrong with finding “responsible” ways to improve ourselves.

What does your definition of “responsible” mean, because I’m pretty sure it doesn’t mean the same thing for me as it does for you?

Our ideas of liberty, equal rights, and dignity is moving beyond the Christian model. If we were to follow a sola scriptura approach to human rights then women would have to wear head scarves and their only role in society would be child bearing and rearing. So while I find some value in tradition, I also understand its weaknesses (and the fact that any tradition was generally promulgated by less advanced people).

May I know what “some value in tradition” would infer?

 

[humble_in_doubt]

I completely disagree. We live in a society now where it is more likely that a person works multiple jobs, or both spouses work, just to pay bills. That is, if you have a job nowadays.

you don’t have to work two jobs … just go to college (and there’s plenty of student loan programs, which are available to everyone). A bad set of options are usually the result of earlier bad choices.

Even those without a degree, you can always pick up a valuable trade. However, the fact is if you were too lazy to go to college you shouldn’t expect a 3,000 square foot home sitting on an acre. If you insist on that sort of home and are willing to work two jobs to get it … then oh well. Yes you’ll be kicking yourself wishing you went to college, but whose fault is that?

To call this some sort of capitalist conspiracy is IMO an unstable way of thinking. It’s not any conspiracy, frankly it’s impossible to foresee the future enough to draft up this sort of conspiracy. Moreover, don’t you see how shifting the blame away from the individual and painting this as some sort of “the world is against us” and trying to keep us from worshiping our god conspiracy detracts from the real problem (that people need to get enough education to make a good living)?

 

[jam070406]

you don’t have to work two jobs … just go to college (and there’s plenty of student loan programs, which are available to everyone). A bad set of options are usually the result of earlier bad choices.

Even those without a degree, you can always pick up a valuable trade. However, the fact is if you were too lazy to go to college you shouldn’t expect a 3,000 square foot home sitting on an acre. If you insist on that sort of home and are willing to work two jobs to get it … then oh well. Yes you’ll be kicking yourself wishing you went to college, but whose fault is that?

To call this some sort of capitalist conspiracy is IMO an unstable way of thinking. It’s not any conspiracy, frankly it’s impossible to foresee the future enough to draft up this sort of conspiracy. Moreover, don’t you see how shifting the blame away from the individual and painting this as some sort of “the world is against us” and trying to keep us from worshiping our god conspiracy detracts from the real problem (that people need to get enough education to make a good living)?

I went to college.
I am not lazy and I resent that remark.
I never said anything about a “capital conspiracy”, your words
You infer that life is easier now because of some societal evolutionary progress, and we’re just lazy and stupid because we believe in God over intellect.
I disagree.
You are definitely someone out in left field. I’m done.
I’ll pray for you.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

I went to college.
I am not lazy and I resent that remark.
I never said anything about a “capital conspiracy”, your words
You infer that life is easier now because of some societal evolutionary progress, and we’re just lazy and stupid because we believe in God over intellect.
I disagree.
You are definitely someone out in left field. I’m done.
I’ll pray for you.

well if it wasn’t you who said that another poster did & you jumped to their defense (which means you inferentially took on their position & the onus was on you to qualify your own position if it differed significantly). Moreover, with regard to the charge that I think religious people are stupid or lazy … I never said (nor inferred) anything of the sort.

I simply say if someone (religious or not) wants the good life then they need to work for it. Our plate of choices begin early, when we decide whether or not to attend college (and our choice of what to major in).

If someone was too lazy to attend college or they didn’t work hard enough in high school (and as a result they’re too stupid) then whose fault is that? It’s their fault, not the government, not societies, not anyone but their own. This is what peeves me about this whole line of thinking.

You guys have this dark worldview that imagines we’re the huddled oppressed masses because we have to pay our Visa bill, our mortgage, and car payment every month. You act like they had it so much better in the glory days of yesteryear. It’s not only you, this is a common theme here in America and yes you’re darn right I think it’s absurd. I don’t find it an overly arduous task to pay my bills each month, it takes less than an hour for goodness sake. I’m glad I have a car, when my ancestors had to walk to work each day. I’m glad I have heating and electricity, my ancestors had to gather wood and procure oil for their lamps. I’m glad we have a currency system and supermarkets, our ancestors had to hunt for their food, sometimes at the risk of their own lives.

So yes indeed I loudly affirm that we have it much better today than our grandparents did, much less our predecessors more remote in time (who were hunter gathers and lived an agrarian existence). Frankly if anything we have it too good. Moreover, most women don’t work out of necessity … they work out of choice. So it’s even wrong to blame society or economics for our latch key households. These are individual choices & it’s not too hard to be successful in America today if we make good choices. This is what people should understand, not that they’re destined for some sort of dark existence because one day they’ll have to pay bills and work for a living. If anything we have much more time today for musings such as religion as compared to our predecessors.

However, at the same time yes we have to work. Don’t get me wrong, if you want to go live in the woods, pitch a tent with your family, hunt for your food, and all the rest … you can probably go ahead and do that. I’m not sure how you figure you’ll have more time to pray or worship god … although you’ll have plenty of more things to pray for (you know, like rain, that you won’t get yourself killed by some bear in the woods while you’re hunting for your food, etc.).

We should optimistic. The world isn’t all gloom and doom … unless you want it to be. It’s funny how you folks always wonder how an atheist can be happy (when it seems we’re really more optimistic about life than anyone)?