I Am Truth

[Pax]

Pax, et al

So if Christ and the Truth are inseparable then could it be said that Plato had a glimpse of Him?

And what about others? Throughout time there are those who didnt know God but have said truths, what about them?

Remembering there is no truth apart from Christ.

All men have an opportunity to know something of God. Paul makes this clear in Romans 1:20 where he says, " Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made." Beyond this, God selected the Jews as the “Chosen People” through whom He would further reveal Himself. Ultimately, God reveals Himself in Jesus.

It would seem that man has gone through a long preparation for the coming of Jesus and the New Covenant. The preparation is a series of “glimpses.” It would not be at all unreasonable to believe that Plato had an intellectual and philosophical glimpse of God. What He did not receive was divine revelation. This would also seem to be the case with others that are outside of Judaism and Christianity. Nevertheless, every factual truth is from God who created all things, and non-Christians can certainly share in at least some knowledge of the truth. These would be the glimpses of which you speak.

 

[paarsurrey]

This would also seem to be the case with others that are outside of Judaism and Christianity. Nevertheless, every factual truth is from God who created all things, and non-Christians can certainly share in at least some knowledge of the truth. These would be the glimpses of which you speak.

Hi

Jesus was truth as also Moses was truth, as also Krishna was truth or Buddha was truth and Zoroaster was truth etc.

I think it is wrong to assume that only Jesus was truth. If only Jesus would have been truth, then with God’s grace every nation would have been waiting for Jesus.

I understand that other nations’ scriptures had no mention of Jesus except of course of Buddha who had prophecized of Jesus coming in his prophecy of Maiterya.

Thanks

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
, and part of being forgiven is to do one’s penance which is MINIMALLY accomplished by the act of physically confessing to Christ as an ordained man in persona Christi.

Where is that in the word of God, Bible?
And the chatechism or council of trent do not count

Jesus forgave only those sinners that came to Him, in person. Coming to Him in person is the minimum requirement, unless it is utterly impossible, in which case we must rely on God’s mercy.

The Priest IS Jesus “in persona”. That is what “in persona Christi” means.

If you were sick and needed a prescripton, who would you go to to get the written prescription?

your doctor
or
the nurse in his office

The “doctor” is the Priest in persona Christi. The “nurse” I imagine would be anyone BUT an ordained person capable of being Christ in persona.

By the way isn’t repetitious prayers like that of

penance three Our Fathers and 3 Hail Marys
or
those which are said of the Rosary.

are against the will of God?

I imagine that it’s the “repetition” aspect of that that bothers you?

How many “repetitions” of the Pater Noster have you made in your life, while not understanding what you were saying?

Whether that “repetition” takes place over 1 hour or 20 years is irrelevant, as long as you understand what you are saying.

God told us not to “babble”, which means not to say meaningless nonsense repetitiously, or incoherently, as a “magic formula” thinking that it will somehow influence God in some fashion.

I have yet to see a Catholic babble.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Where is the rosary and praying to Mary in the bible

This is a truth threak and I am posing truth seeking questions

Where is “the gospel band with the saxaphone player” in the bible? Does that make having one in protestant churches “a sin”?

Where is it recommended not to ask our fellow Christians, especially those of Great Virtue, to pray for us and for that which we love that agrees with God’s will?

Please show me! Thank you.

I believe you are indeed seeking truth. Please tell us how you’re not finding the truth that we offer you, and we can continue mutually seeking truth.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

If there are catholics like my friend who turns me off when I talk about Jesus is the one who ultimately forgives sins, my friends’ response is Father Smith forgave me and doesnt even want to talk about Jesus’s love for all.

Makes me wonder how many more Catholics believe like my friend does.

Only Priests can act in persona Christi. Is your friend a Priest?

Your friend most likely “turns you off”, which I take to mean that he doesn’t want to talk about what you want to talk about at that time, because he is not very good at Catholic apologetics.

He probably can’t explain his faith very well, because, most likely, he was poorly educated in it.

Priests are not, by any means, perfect people, and ANY ordained Priest can act in persona Christi regardless of his sinfulness (as long as they haven’t had that faculty removed by the proper authority for some canonical reason).

“Jesus’ love for all” is implicit in anything having to do with Jesus, therefore what the Priest “talks about” with your friend is most likely some more specific topic.

I’d REALLY like to hear what it is, specifically, you have a problem with as to what we Catholics DO. Thanks!

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

If we are “right” your “confessions” are incomplete.
“If” you are right, I agree then I am doomed.

You’re not doomed, unless you have a feeling that Catholics MAY in fact be right. Are you willing to take that chance?

If I sin against my dad I will apologize directly to him

I would not go to my brother and say…Brother, I am sorry that I sinned against dad, forgive me

A Priest is not your Brother! He is CHRIST Himself when he is acting in persona Christi.

You either believe that or not. Please look into how it is possible that this can be the case. Would you agree that IF a Priest is indeed Christ Himself standing before you, in Jesus’ capacity (only) to forgive your sins, that it would be appropriate to go to Him to be forgiven?

Why would God be any different??
Any sin against anyone is ultimately a sin against God.

Absolutely True. Why would God be any different than what?

You go ONLY to God, as Jesus, our sole intercessor, who carries our prayers to the Holy Trinity to be forgiven.

No man can forgive sins.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Hi

Jesus was truth as also Moses was truth, as also Krishna was truth or Buddha was truth and Zoroaster was truth etc.

I think it is wrong to assume that only Jesus was truth. If only Jesus would have been truth, then with God’s grace every nation would have been waiting for Jesus.

I understand that other nations’ scriptures had no mention of Jesus except of course of Buddha who had prophecized of Jesus coming in his prophecy of Maiterya.

Thanks

parr this part of the discussion has been moved to another thread cant you go there? it will be less confusing

Kitty

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Do you really belief, God set a system up where the sinner make “3rd party confession”?

Of course you do,dumb question

No. We ask for forgiveness only from God. Jesus gave us a way to do what is necessary to be truly, and most fully, forgiven. He gave His representatives on earth the keys to bind and lose sins from His People, which is only available through The Church.

All other forms of “getting forgiveness” are incomplete, though possibly/probably sincere, and are accepted by those who do it under the authority of those who will/are owe/owing, at least, an enormous penance after their time on earth.

Let me ask this way and I realize would be tough if impossible to answer, if you were to give the bible to someone that knew nothing about the catholic church, do you believe that from all the scipture relating to forgiving sins, they would conclude that Jesus forgive but a confession has to be made through an apostle?

Why would I give them an inspired work of God, put into human readable form, with no good way to understand it?

Even the very smart Ethiopian fellow IN the bible needed an actual authorized authority to be able to make inspired writing understandable!

Whether the interpretation that a “Church ignorant” person was correct or not is a matter of “luck”.

Who would be willing to gamble “gaining” eternity in hell when there’s a source of information that makes the gamble a 100% certainty of “losing” hell, as long as you do what the authorized purveyor of this information actually says, regardless of whether you like it or not?

Would you abandon a soul to his own “luck” in him gaining heaven?

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

If I am right and Jesus, in wanting a personal relationship with you, wants you to personally repent of your sin to Him and not through a priest as this verse says…

Quote:
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

I **have **a personal relationship with Jesus. You apparently don’t think I do. I’d like to kow why you think I don’t?

I **DO **personally repent of my sin to Him in His REAL PRESENCE as CHRIST JESUS with the appearance of a Priest.

That is what “in persona Christi” means.

There IS one God and one mediator between God and men who is the man Jesus Christ. It is to Him that I repent to be forgiven.

The Priest is only the appearance of a Priest when he is in persona Christi.

Given my premises, do you agree that I do in fact ask for forgiveness from our Lord Jesus Christ? I’m nt asking you to agree that my premises are correct. Just that using those premises it is correct that I could come to that conclusion.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

How many sinful souls are there that are yet to be forgiven because the person did not repent according to the word of God?

Which surprise sounds more “dangerous” to you?

Your authority to interpret “the word of God” (which you misidentify as “the bible” instead of as "Jesus the Head of the Body of Christ which is the Church) is yourself and those you choose to accept as authorities.

That you arrived at an interpretation that “Catholics do it wrong” based on only a portion of the deposit of faith is understandable.

Since Catholics “in all good conscience” (which means true belief as per the authorities of protestantism which gives us the same “authority” that they have, at least) believe that they are confessing/repenting DIRECTLY to Jesus, we are AT THE VERY LEAST as “forgiven” as you are as a protestant.

Why is our “in good conscience” act any less valid than your “in good conscience” act?

 

[uglygal]

Another perfect Christian, who is 100 percent certain of going to heaven.

You say this sarcastically and in doing so you grieve me and offend my God. Yes I am saved 100% because my God has saved me, he died for me, he loves me and he will never let me go. We are one, united forever in this life and the next. I am going to heaven - 100% certain - in fact my heaven has begun on this earth in this very mortal life because my God loves me and I love Him and so I already wear my crown of glory. Too bad for you that you doubt this and think your better than other people. Am I perfect? No. I never said I was, but my God is my sanctity and my righteousness and therefore I am perfect because He is my perfection.

The Church did take the place of Jesus. Jesus gave the mission to the Catholic Church to stand in his place, to be his Vicar on earth.

It usurped Jesus did it? Jesus exists NOW in heaven and watches everything. He is the Head, He is the boss. The Church did not take the place of Jesus nor will it ever. It is a servant to do God’s work on earth, to be his body - to stand in his place of service, not his place of conquest and glory. And definately not in His place of Judge

He guaranteed it faithfulness and truth, without error, the sign to lead the world to heaven.

As long as it is loyal to Him and serves Him and obeys Him. When the church departs from this - making concessions that allah/buddha/krishna and Jesus are the same, practicising Reiki in the Church - the church is being faithful and true?

What do you mean that the Church strays (further) from God/Christ, and becomes a falsehood?

precisely my point above. Jesus is truth. The further you stray from Jesus the further you stray from truth. The church is not immune to this as so many examples indicate.

Truth therein is what an individual says it is today. Christ said to his Church, “I will be with you till the end of time, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against you”. You call Jesus a liar? You say he will forsake his promises? And, on Pentecost He sent the Holy Spirit to be with the Catholic Church.

Precisely my point, though you seem eager to look for insults in anything written by a non-catholic. Christ is the truth, when a person leaves Christ (including priests, nuns, catholics who depart from Him) you have departed from truth. The gates of hell shall not prevail against the truth but that doesn’t mean the Church will never fail. To the contrary a great apostasy is expected in the end times (evident in sex scandals (priests departing from truth), practice of reiki at church (departing from truth), false ecumenism (departing from truth) the list goes on. I don’t call Jesus a liar, where did I do that? I find it amusing that if anyone says anything a catholic disagrees with, we are accused of fighting God himself. Lol. If you call yourselves the ‘chosen’ ones of God, then act like it not through pompous grabs at power but through service, and try not to judge everything a non-catholic says as being insulting and offensive.

God / Jesus alone is truth. He Himself said ***I ***am the truth. The best the Church can do is possess truth to share, but not be truth itself. In other words, the Church can say “Jesus is the way the truth and the life”, but it cannot say, “the catholic church is the way the truth and the life”. To put it simply this is the essence of my answer to this question - the truth is Jesus / God, He is the only truth, He is the only truth the church can give, He is the truth of the church

 

[mgrfin]

]

There is no sarcasm in my remarks, as there is no amusement in yours.

It is a defined doctrine of the Catholic faith that “anyone who says that he will for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainity, have the great gift of perservance to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation, let him be anathema”. Canon 16, Justification, Coun of Trent).

You call us haughty? Why not quote your authority, chapter and verse, for the 100 percent certainity of your salvation. I think the presumption of salvation is superiority and haughtiness.

Thanks.

peace

 

[uglygal]

My certainty is God’s Love and Mercy for me that is written into every page of the Gospel and proved by the life of Jesus and His Passion endured for me. I didn’t call catholic’s haughty but pointed out their own claim to be ‘chosen’ by God in possessing all truth. Once again this was in the context of the question about truth - not salvation. My answer wasn’t meant to be amusing, it was meant to emphasize that the truth is Jesus / God, He is the only truth, He is the only truth the church can give, He is the truth of the church

 

[mgrfin]

My certainty is God’s Love and Mercy for me that is written into every page of the Gospel and proved by the life of Jesus and His Passion endured for me. I didn’t call catholic’s haughty but pointed out their own claim to be ‘chosen’ by God in possessing all truth. Once again this was in the context of the question about truth - not salvation. My answer wasn’t meant to be amusing, it was meant to emphasize that the truth is Jesus / God, He is the only truth, He is the only truth the church can give, He is the truth of the church

No one is doubting God’s love and mercy for you.

Without haughtiness, without amusement, with all sincerity, the Catholic Church has all the truth that has been revealed by God, both Written and Unwritten. That truth was guaranteed to be preserved, protected by the Holy Spirit infallibly until the end of time. And so it has. That is why the Church is hated, because we are the only one who can trace itself back to Christ and the Apostles. We were not man-made in the 16th century, or ‘unified’ in the 20th century.

Having every christian community claiming to have the truth, it is even more evident that Jesus Christ would not allow for his Church to be so comixed. The Holy Spirit who guides us is God.
He loves you still.

Credo in…unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam…"

peace

 

[uglygal]

I think were at a misunderstanding, the OP asked who else can make a claim to be truth as Jesus claimed I am the way, the truth and the life. My response was to this question that the only one who can make this claim is Jesus, the very Word of God.

 

[mgrfin]

I think were at a misunderstanding, the OP asked who else can make a claim to be truth as Jesus claimed I am the way, the truth and the life. My response was to this question that the only one who can make this claim is Jesus, the very Word of God.

Well, as Christ’s Vicar on earth, the Catholic Church can make this claim.

peace

 

[paarsurrey]

parr this part of the discussion has been moved to another thread cant you go there? it will be less confusing

Kitty

Hi

Which thread, please?

Thanks

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrfin
Another perfect Christian, who is 100 percent certain of going to heaven.

You say this sarcastically and in doing so you grieve me and offend my God. Yes I am saved 100% because my God has saved me, he died for me, he loves me and he will never let me go. We are one, united forever in this life and the next. I am going to heaven - 100% certain - in fact my heaven has begun on this earth in this very mortal life because my God loves me and I love Him and so I already wear my crown of glory. Too bad for you that you doubt this and think your better than other people. Am I perfect? No. I never said I was, but my God is my sanctity and my righteousness and therefore I am perfect because He is my perfection.

If a Catholic said this (the text of Uglygal) in these forums (fori?) he would be banned. I’ve seen it happen.

You claim all sarcasm (of THEMSELF at least) is blasphemy. What sort of person thinks that?

Then you go on to claim that “the sarcastic one” thinks that they are “better than other people”, while claiming yourself “perfect”.

The person that you claim insults both you and God is simply restating what you said of yourself:

That you are yet another perfect Christian who is 100% certain of going to heaven!

You are obviously cmplaining about the “tone” of “mr/mrs sarcasm”. I would like to complain about YOUR “tone”, which is one of hyper-sensitive childishness.

I’ll most likely be banned now for DARING to state the obvious hypocracy of a non-Catholic, while you’ll be joyously praised as a poor sensitive “ecumenical” non-Catholic.

May we all have the patience and discernment to see that humor has a place in human interaction, and that not all sarcasm is meant as hurtful.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

My certainty is God’s Love and Mercy for me that is written into every page of the Gospel and proved by the life of Jesus and His Passion endured for me. I didn’t call catholic’s haughty but pointed out their own claim to be ‘chosen’ by God in possessing all truth. Once again this was in the context of the question about truth - not salvation. My answer wasn’t meant to be amusing, it was meant to emphasize that the truth is Jesus / God, He is the only truth, He is the only truth the church can give, He is the truth of the church

Is the Church (either YOUR invisible one or THE real one) not “the chosen people”?

Were the pre-Jesus “people of God” not "the chosen people?

I’m going for clarity here, and not to be contentious.

The reason I ask this is to clarify who you now think ARE the “chosen people”. Thanks for your insight.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Hi

Which thread, please?

Thanks

Who claims to be the Truth (new thread)

sorry about that paarsurrey