" I AM"

  • Thread starter Thread starter memnoch_lover
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

memnoch_lover

Guest
God says in the old testament that is name is " I AM".(exodus)

Jesus calls God , “Father”.

Therefore Father is “I AM”.

Jesus said baptize “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”(matthew last chapter last par)

The word “name” is singular… hence there is only one name for the Father ,Son and the Holy Spirit.

If the name of the Father is “I AM” . then " I AM " must be thesame name of the Son and the Holy Spirit since they have one name.

therefore… the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit… is the One “I AM” of the old testament
 
40.png
memnoch_lover:
God says in the old testament that is name is " I AM".(exodus)

Jesus calls God , “Father”.

Therefore Father is “I AM”.

Jesus said baptize “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”(matthew last chapter last par)

The word “name” is singular… hence there is only one name for the Father ,Son and the Holy Spirit.

If the name of the Father is “I AM” . then " I AM " must be thesame name of the Son and the Holy Spirit since they have one name.

therefore… the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit… is the One “I AM” of the old testament
Click to expand...
Peace

Thanks for the explanation. I am begining to understand how Christians interpret these verses to mean that Jesus is God.

To me, they seem rather vague and unclear , but ofcourse, I’m a Muslim and i’m used to a clear text where God tells me numerous times in plain language who He is.

Thanks for the explanation!
 
isn’t "before abraham came to be “I AM” plain enough?
if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father
the Father and I are One.

in the beginning was the Word.the word was in God"s presence, and the Word was God. He was present to God in the beginning.
 
40.png
jjwilkman:
isn’t "before abraham came to be “I AM” plain enough?
if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father
the Father and I are One.

in the beginning was the Word.the word was in God"s presence, and the Word was God. He was present to God in the beginning.
Click to expand...
But then there are the verses where Jesus peace be upon him says
“the father is greater than I”
" i dont do my own will but the will of the one who sent me."
“I have not spoken on my own authority, but the fatehr who sent me gave me a command”
"I came not of my own accord, but he sent me
“my teaching is not mind but his who sent me”

All the above match the Islamic perspective of who Jesus (pbuh) is. I guess both perspectives about Jesus (pbuh) can be backed up with proof from the Bible. I choose the perspective that makes more sense. There is one God and Jesus (pbuh) is his messenger.
 
40.png
Faith101:
All the above match the Islamic perspective of who Jesus (pbuh) is. I guess both perspectives about Jesus (pbuh) can be backed up with proof from the Bible. I choose the perspective that makes more sense. There is one God and Jesus (pbuh) is his messenger.
Click to expand...
The problem with this perspective is that it necessarily ignores the verses quoted by memnoch_lover. We have to adhere to all of God’s word, not just the parts that conform with our wishes.

The Catholic understanding of Jesus is the one that makes sense of all of Scripture.
 
Don’t forget they worshipped him.😃 I’m very proud to have found that all by myself.
40.png
Faith101:
But then there are the verses where Jesus peace be upon him says
“the father is greater than I”
" i dont do my own will but the will of the one who sent me."
“I have not spoken on my own authority, but the fatehr who sent me gave me a command”
"I came not of my own accord, but he sent me
“my teaching is not mind but his who sent me”
Click to expand...
Only some thoughts. There are probably many problems in my reasoning, and this is not Church teaching to my knowledge, only my small brain.

A man and woman in marriage become “one flesh.” If there was a king and queen, the king could be greater than the king, and the rest of the quotes could fall in line under that anology. Again, this is only mindless dribble theorizing, and is most likely wrong and NOT Church teaching.
 
40.png
Faith101:
But then there are the verses where Jesus peace be upon him says
“the father is greater than I”
" i dont do my own will but the will of the one who sent me."
“I have not spoken on my own authority, but the fatehr who sent me gave me a command”
"I came not of my own accord, but he sent me
“my teaching is not mind but his who sent me”

All the above match the Islamic perspective of who Jesus (pbuh) is. I guess both perspectives about Jesus (pbuh) can be backed up with proof from the Bible. I choose the perspective that makes more sense. There is one God and Jesus (pbuh) is his messenger.
Click to expand...
After explaining that the Father and the Son and the holy Spirit is One God since they have one name which is " I AM" the name of God. Now i have to explain the above qouted comment.

the basic question is if Jesus is " I AM" therefore God.why should he claim to be lesser than the Father as qouted above etc?

I explain:

The Son of God has pre existed with the Father before he was born as man ( Jn 1:1). At this point of time the Son of God was not yet man therefore he is Co equal with the Father, at this point of time the Son of God is not lesser than the Father instead the Son is that which the Father is in short consubstantial.

However the Son of God Emptied himself by choosing to born as man and thus entered human history and became son of man.

As man he was truly as jewish man. As such he became subject to law of God and moses, and has to submit to the will of God. All of these he fulfilled . These are the consequences of his emptying.

One of the will of God is for the Son of God as man to suffer and die(see isaiah 53:10) and for these reason the Son of God became man and as man to follow the will of God even unto death.

That is why while man…jesus legitmately claimed what is quoted above as a result of his emptying… he thus humbled himself.

Paul wrote about this in phillipians: " Though He was in nature God , he did not deem EQUALITY with God something to be grasped at, Rather He EMPTIED himself chose the form of a slave being born in the likeness of men

He was then known to be of human state and obeyed God even unto death. death on the cross.

So that everything in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue proclaim to the glory of the Father, Jesus is ADONAI(LORD).

Take note that Adonai is a hebrew substitute of YHWH(IAM).Hence a title of “IAM”. Adonai is translated into english as LORD…THe first christians were jewisj therefore when they say Lord that means God.
 
However the Son of God Emptied himself by choosing to born as man and thus entered human history and became son of man.

As man he was truly as jewish man. As such he became subject to law of God and moses, and has to submit to the will of God. All of these he fulfilled . These are the consequences of his emptying.
Click to expand...
When Jesus peace be upon him was in this “emptying state”, who was looking after the world? Who was answering the prayers of people in China during this time?
Paul wrote about this in phillipians: " Though He was in nature God , he did not deem EQUALITY with God something to be grasped at, Rather He EMPTIED himself chose the form of a slave being born in the likeness of men
Click to expand...
I really never understood this concept. If a human being says “i’m great!” thats arrogance…b/c in reality, they are not. When God says “I am great.” Thats fact and there is nothing wrong with that.
He was then known to be of human state and obeyed God even unto death. death on the cross.
Click to expand...
He obeyed God. SO there is Jesus and then there is the being that he obeyed…thats two persons (evidently they are not equal since one is obeying the other).

The more this concept is explained to me, the less i understand.
 
You know I always wanted to know, that is God died for your sins does that mean that there is no more sins on earth? Or is it that when you believe that God died for your sins, then all of your sins are forgiven? And does this mean that He only died for the sins of thoes who believe in Him? Beacuse I’m thinking if God died for mankinds sins, then that means there are no more sins, no need for Hell and everyone goes to heaven.

I asked this question in the forum"christ as God" or something like that. I thought i would use this one to follow up on Faith’s questions.
wa salam
 
40.png
Faith101:
When Jesus peace be upon him was in this “emptying state”, who was looking after the world? Who was answering the prayers of people in China during this time?

I really never understood this concept. If a human being says “i’m great!” thats arrogance…b/c in reality, they are not. When God says “I am great.” Thats fact and there is nothing wrong with that.

He obeyed God. SO there is Jesus and then there is the being that he obeyed…thats two persons (evidently they are not equal since one is obeying the other).

The more this concept is explained to me, the less i understand.
Click to expand...
1)God the Father, I assume.
2) I don’t understand your question. Jesus emptied himself of some his powers was always my understanding.
3)Read the link i posted.

As for the question on Jesus dieing for us-thats something that Ask an Apologest would probably have an answer to.🙂
 
Allah the Almighty said:

I am as My servant thinks I am*. I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm’s length, I draw near to him a fathom’s length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.
  • Another possible rendering of the Arabic is: “I am as My servant expects Me to be”. The meaning is that forgiveness and acceptance of repentance by the Almighty is subject to His servant truly believing that He is forgiving and merciful. However, not to accompany such belief with right action would be to mock the Almighty.
wa salam
 
fatuma said:
You know I always wanted to know, that is God died for your sins does that mean that there is no more sins on earth? Or is it that when you believe that God died for your sins, then all of your sins are forgiven? And does this mean that He only died for the sins of thoes who believe in Him? Beacuse I’m thinking if God died for mankinds sins, then that means there are no more sins, no need for Hell and everyone goes to heaven.

I asked this question in the forum"christ as God" or something like that. I thought i would use this one to follow up on Faith’s questions.
wa salam
Click to expand...
Before the Second Person of the One God became man and was crucified even though he had no sins – THE GATE OF HEAVEN WAS CLOSED TO HUMAN BEINGS. No human could enter heaven. Moses, Abraham and the other prophets and holy people could not enter heaven. That why if you research the Jewish Religion, they don’t talk about heaven or simply say that heaven is optional - because they do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah and are still waiting for a messiah.

Moses, Abraham, and the other prophets do not have the INFINITE DIGNITY that the Second Person of God has. No matter how the prophets obeyed the Commandments, their obedience could not open heaven which was closed due to the DISOBEDIENCE OF ADAM AND EVE. BUT THE SECOND PERSON HAS INFINITE DIGNITY, AND WHEN THEY KILLED HIM, HE BECAME THE SINLESS SACRIFICE THAT OPENED HEAVEN TO HUMAN BEINGS. (Remember, as an indication of the dignity, the specialness of Jesus Christ, Jesus was born of a Virgin Mother and had NO HUMAN FATHER!!!)

WHEN THE GATE OF HEAVEN WAS OPENED, THAT IS WHAT IS MEANT BY CATHOLICS AND CHRISTIANS THAT GOD DIED FOR YOUR SINS.

Despite this however, people can still sin after the death of Jesus, just like you see people sinning everyday. If you die and these sins that you commit after the death of Jesus are not forgiven, YOU CANNOT ENTER HEAVEN. To have these sins forgiven, you need to GO THE ROUTE OF GO SIN NO MORE. If you are Catholic, you need to go to confession to a Catholic Priest. When you do these, you become a friend of God again and God will allow you to enter heaven if you die…

You see the difference??? Before Jesus the Messiah, even how obedient a prophet or person was, he could not enter heaven because there was NO GATE, the GATE WAS CLOSED to humans.

After Jesus, the gate is open to humans who repent of their sins, go the route of go sin no more, are meciful, go to confession to a Catholic Priest if they are Catholics, follow their conscience.

That’s why Mary, the Apostles, Abraham, Moses, and many others are in heaven.
 
The Eurasian:
Before Jesus the Messiah, even how obedient a prophet or person was, he could not enter heaven because there was NO GATE, the GATE WAS CLOSED to humans.
Click to expand...
Didn’t the prophet Enoch enter into heaven?
 
40.png
Faith101:
He obeyed God. SO there is Jesus and then there is the being that he obeyed…thats two persons (evidently they are not equal since one is obeying the other).
Click to expand...
I understand how this can be confusing. But I think it’s because of the terminology here. To make it easier to understand, if I were the person who you are responding to here, I would have posted that “Jesus obeyed the FATHER.”

You have to bear in mind that when a Catholic uses the word “God,” it is different from the Muslim definition in which it is already implied that the one God consists of ONLY ONE person. When they use the word “God,” they could be referring to Jesus, the Father, or the Holy Spirit. It is exactly because of this three-person nature that God (the person of Jesus, specifically) was able to “obey God” (by obeying the Father).

Here’s what I think is a good (albeit weird) analogy… Your body consists of many parts, a head, arms, legs, etc. They are different PARTS, but they are all part of the same BODY and not considered separate BODIES in themselves. If someone were to say “I bit myself” then it would make sense, because they used their head to bite another part of their body, like their finger or something. However, if we existed in some strange universe where we consisted of nothing but a head, this statement would not make any sense because it’s impossible to bite your own head.

In the same way, if every time you hear the word “God,” you retain the assumption in your head that God consists of only one person, then certain things Christians say about God will never make any sense. We have different definitions of God.

Thanks for putting up with this. 😃
 
oops, forgot this part.

Faith101 said:
(evidently they are not equal since one is obeying the other).
Click to expand...

How does that make him not equal? His divine will was just the same as that of his heavenly Father. Therefore, when he entered into the sphere of humanity he obeyed the Father unconditionally, casting even all his temporary carnal human urges aside.

Jesus obeyed his Father out of the complete and perfect love they shared… NOT because he was forced to against his will.

Of course, maybe you were referring to equality as in might? Yes, Jesus still had complete power over everything, even as a human. But since his will was one with his Father’s, that was never a problem.
 
Actually, Enoch was assumed, and nowhere does it mentioned Heaven.

“And he walked with God, and was seen no more: because God took him”

I asked a Jewish friend of mine their concept of the afterlife (which I doubt has changed much) and she said you join in some sort of spiritual…I don’t know circle, and it doesn’t sound like there is a punishment for the damned, or any kind of Heaven, only a single place. I could be very, very wrong though, so don’t trust my facts too much.🙂
 
Ahimsa ----- From Post #16:
Didn’t the prophet Enoch enter into heaven?
Click to expand...
Ahimsa

The Old Testament does say that Enoch walked with God and was never again seen.

So also with Elijah who was swept away by a fiery chariot and was never seen again by his companions.​

Your question is actually a question I’ve always wanted to ask. But I never had a chance to ask it.
In the Creed, the Catholic Church says that CHRIST DECENDED INTO HELL. THIS HELL ACCORDING TO KNOWLEDGEABLE CATHOLICS I"VE HEARD IN THE PAST IS THE HELL CALLED SHEOUL WHERE THE HOLY PEOPLE OF THE OLD TESTAMENT WENT. I ASSUME THAT THIS MUST BE THE PLACE WHERE ELIJAH AND ENOCH WENT.

In the Creed, Catholics say, "He (Christ) decended into hell, the third day He rose again, He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty.

When Christ decended into hell (Sheoul), He decended to the place or condition or state where Abraham, Moses, and the prophets were. Remember, when Jesus died, the New Testament says in the Gospels that the graves of HOLY people opened up and the dead holy people were walking around!!!

Later, in the TRANSFIGURATION, Jesus was there with Moses and ELIJAH. This goes back to your question about ENOCH BECAUSE LIKE ELIJAH, THEY ARE THE TWO PEOPLE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT WHO BODILY WERE TAKEN AND WERE NEVER SEEN AGAIN BY THEIR COMPANIONS.

These are my opinions. But Catholics more knowledgeable than me might post and do some corrections on my opinion later.
But regardless of the answers, the fact is that for the billions and billions of people like you and me WHO DO NOT OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS THE WAY MOSES, ABRAHAM, AND THE HOLY PROPHETS KEPT THE COMMANDMENTS, ------ WITHOUT THE MESSIAH JESUS CHRIST, NO WAY CAN WE ENTER HEAVEN.
In fact, if as a man, Jesus sinned, I think even Jesus Himself would not have been allowed by the Father to enter heaven. That’s why, the Gospels mention the occurence when JESUS WAS TEMPTED BY THE DEVIL 3 TIMES.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top