'I' and 'my spirit'

[Hokomai]

In the new Mass translation, I understand that ‘and with your spirit’ is a more accurate translation than ‘and also with you’. But is there a difference in meaning? In Catholic thought am ‘I’ the same thing as ‘my spirit’?

 

[Dymphna82]

I’m not sure.

I think this change was made for psychological focus.

 

[YoungTradCath]

There was a push in the 1970s to make the parts of the mass in which the priest or deacon says, “The Lord be with you,” into a greeting, rather than a religious invocation. Thus, translators destroyed the translation of, “Et cum spiritu tuo,” by translating it as, “And also with you.” This was due in part to the “spirit” of Vatican II (note: I didn’t say Vatican II) which commends the use of the dynamic equivalence theory rather than the formal equivalence theory.

There is a massive difference in meaning. The phrase, “And also with you,” implies in no small part that what is happening is everyday, is common. The part in question is the “you,” since “you” is a word that is everyday, is common, and is not elevated either in breadth of vocabulary itself or in meaning. Anyone can say, “You too,” or, “And also with you,” and it means just that, the Lord be with you as well. Okay, kinda basic. But when you translate as, “And with your spirit,” not only are you more faithful to the Latin, but you have changed the meaning as well. I was listening to a priest comment on this very matter, and while his mode of delivery was rather apologetic in the sense that he sounded sorry that the Church was “forcing” such changes on the “poor people,” he did an excellent job of explaining it if you looked past that. He put forth the very real idea that by the laity responding, “And with your spirit,” they are making reference to the Lord being with the priest in the sense of Him being with the part of the priest’s soul that was permanently changed when he accepted Holy Orders. “And with your spirit” is a phrase that acknowledges the special character of the soul of the priest, and how it has a quality to it that is different from the laity’s souls, in the same sense that married people’s souls have a special character to them that makes them different from celibate priests’ souls. The phrase acknowledges this quality of the priest’s soul, which the old translation does not, at all. “And with your spirit” completes the priest’s invocation when he says, “The Lord be with you.”

Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of English and who can make the most basic connections sees that “spiritu” and “spirit” are cognates.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Note than in the Eastern Rites, “and with your spirit” is also the response when the priest gives the peace of Christ by saying “Peace be with you (all)”. This points to the fact that this response is ancient, possibly dating back to the Apostles, when there was a common Liturgy in the Church.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Note than in the Eastern Rites, “and with your spirit” is also the response when the priest gives the peace of Christ by saying “Peace be with you (all)”. This points to the fact that this response is ancient, possibly dating back to the Apostles, when there was a common Liturgy in the Church.

Yeah, “Pax vobiscum” is also used in the Latin Church, by bishops, instead of “Dominus vobiscum.”

 

[liturgyluver]

There was a push in the 1970s to make the parts of the mass in which the priest or deacon says, “The Lord be with you,” into a greeting, rather than a religious invocation. Thus, translators destroyed the translation of, “Et cum spiritu tuo,” by translating it as, “And also with you.” This was due in part to the “spirit” of Vatican II (note: I didn’t say Vatican II) which commends the use of the dynamic equivalence theory rather than the formal equivalence theory.

There is a massive difference in meaning. The phrase, “And also with you,” implies in no small part that what is happening is everyday, is common. The part in question is the “you,” since “you” is a word that is everyday, is common, and is not elevated either in breadth of vocabulary itself or in meaning. Anyone can say, “You too,” or, “And also with you,” and it means just that, the Lord be with you as well. Okay, kinda basic. But when you translate as, “And with your spirit,” not only are you more faithful to the Latin, but you have changed the meaning as well. I was listening to a priest comment on this very matter, and while his mode of delivery was rather apologetic in the sense that he sounded sorry that the Church was “forcing” such changes on the “poor people,” he did an excellent job of explaining it if you looked past that. He put forth the very real idea that by the laity responding, “And with your spirit,” they are making reference to the Lord being with the priest in the sense of Him being with the part of the priest’s soul that was permanently changed when he accepted Holy Orders. “And with your spirit” is a phrase that acknowledges the special character of the soul of the priest, and how it has a quality to it that is different from the laity’s souls, in the same sense that married people’s souls have a special character to them that makes them different from celibate priests’ souls. The phrase acknowledges this quality of the priest’s soul, which the old translation does not, at all. “And with your spirit” completes the priest’s invocation when he says, “The Lord be with you.”

Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of English and who can make the most basic connections sees that “spiritu” and “spirit” are cognates.

Thank you for this very clear and powerful explanation: I have heard this described before but not as well as you have here.

 

[YoungTradCath]

No problem .

 

[zab]

In the new Mass translation, I understand that ‘and with your spirit’ is a more accurate translation than ‘and also with you’. But is there a difference in meaning? In Catholic thought am ‘I’ the same thing as ‘my spirit’?

The response, “and with your spirit” is said to be in recognition of the unique role of the priest. The response is given only to ordained ministers. As I recall, we used this response when the Permanent Deacon read the Gospel as well.

 

[JimG]

A similar explanation is given here.

 

[agapewolf]

To answer the last question by the OP,

Yes, indeed “you” and “your spirit” and “your body” are the same thing.

Humans are embodied spirits. Angels are spirits without bodies, and animals are bodies without spirits. Your body manifests your spirit.

As explained earlier, the response is referring to something completely different: the spirit of the priesthood.

This is the one change to the modern english speaking america that makes me uneasy. Yes, it is more accurate to the Latin, but this question is an example of how I think what most people are going to think about when the response changes.

 

[ProVobis]

Note than in the Eastern Rites, “and with your spirit” is also the response when the priest gives the peace of Christ by saying “Peace be with you (all)”. This points to the fact that this response is ancient, possibly dating back to the Apostles, when there was a common Liturgy in the Church.

The difference is that there is an explicit subjunctive in the Pax sit semper vobiscum (as there is in the Greek, I understand.) There is no subjunctive in the Dominus vobiscum and there is some inconsistency in the English which has “the Lord BE with you” in the Mass but “the Lord IS with you” in the Ave Maria.

That said, the “and also with you” was at first the response to “May the spirit of the Lord be with you/And also with you” which would at least theologically make more sense. But it failed to make sense when the same response was to “the Lord be with you,” adding a subjunctive which doesn’t exist in the original.

 

[ProVobis]

To answer the last question by the OP,

Yes, indeed “you” and “your spirit” and “your body” are the same thing.

Humans are embodied spirits. Angels are spirits without bodies, and animals are bodies without spirits. Your body manifests your spirit.

As explained earlier, the response is referring to something completely different: the spirit of the priesthood.

This is the one change to the modern english speaking america that makes me uneasy. Yes, it is more accurate to the Latin, but this question is an example of how I think what most people are going to think about when the response changes.

You present some interesting theories but you might be reading a bit too much into it here.

From the Cassell’s Latin Dictionary, *spiritus, -us *(masculine) - “breathing, breath, breeze.” Also, “disposition, life, divine or poetic inspiration.” Examples from Roman writing are provided.

A related verb, spiro, -are - “to breathe, to blow” such as in Dum spiro, spero - “While I breathe, I hope.”

 

[Hokomai]

So do we have something like a consensus that what should be understood (not said) is “and also with you, whose spirit has the indelible character of priesthood”?

 

[ProVobis]

So do we have something like a consensus that what should be understood (not said) is “and also with you, whose spirit has the indelible character of priesthood”?

I can’t see that. The angel didn’t come to Mary as a priest when the angel said “…Dominus tecum.”

 

[ProVobis]

The difference is that there is an explicit subjunctive in the Pax sit semper vobiscum (as there is in the Greek, I understand.) There is no subjunctive in the Dominus vobiscum and there is some inconsistency in the English which has “the Lord BE with you” in the Mass but “the Lord IS with you” in the Ave Maria.

That said, the “and also with you” was at first the response to “May the spirit of the Lord be with you/And also with you” which would at least theologically make more sense. But it failed to make sense when the same response was to “the Lord be with you,” adding a subjunctive which doesn’t exist in the original.

FWIW, Dominus vobiscum is translated in Polish as “Pan z wami” (Master/Lord IS with you.) But what’s interesting is that “Pan” in Polish is also a standard way of addressing someone in the second person. This seems to be a tough nuance to capture in the English.

 

[agapewolf]

You present some interesting theories but you might be reading a bit too much into it here.

From the Cassell’s Latin Dictionary, *spiritus, -us *(masculine) - “breathing, breath, breeze.” Also, “disposition, life, divine or poetic inspiration.” Examples from Roman writing are provided.

A related verb, spiro, -are - “to breathe, to blow” such as in Dum spiro, spero - “While I breathe, I hope.”

I’m not reading into anything. One only needs to look at our culture and see the dualism lived out everywhere. People are not aware that their body and soul are connected, and that what we do with our bodies is what we speak with our souls (look at all the threads on contraception for goodness sake)

I’m saying how the modern normal Sunday catholic is going to hear “and with your spirit”…they’re gonna be thinking spirit vs. body. This is where the catechesis should come in, but even though it is offered, it is still voluntary-- so most of those folks probably did not look into the meaning much deeper.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Yeah, “Pax vobiscum” is also used in the Latin Church, by bishops, instead of “Dominus vobiscum.”

I was tired when I posted that. There are many blessings the priest gives that are replied to with “and with your spirit,” not just “Peace be with you”. But in any case, “with your spirit” is also used in the Divine Liturgy, which means this is a much older response from a much older form of Liturgy where both the Divine Liturgy and the Roman Mass came from. So its only right that in current translations of the OF, “with your spirit” is kept as the proper response.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

“And with your spirit” is a phrase that acknowledges the special character of the soul of the priest, and how it has a quality to it that is different from the laity’s souls, in the same sense that married people’s souls have a special character to them that makes them different from celibate priests’ souls.

Just a quick note: while priesthood ordination leaves an indelible mark upon the soul, the sacrament of marriage does not.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Just a quick note: while priesthood ordination leaves an indelible mark upon the soul, the sacrament of marriage does not.

It does not? Then why can’t people just divorce and re-marry? I thought things like these weren’t “policies” but things that the Church can’t change. I thought every sacrament leaves an indelible mark on the soul.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

It does not? Then why can’t people just divorce and re-marry? I thought things like these weren’t “policies” but things that the Church can’t change. I thought every sacrament leaves an indelible mark on the soul.

The sacrament of marriage is “until death does us part.” Once one of the spouses dies, the sacrament is no longer and thus the widow(er) can get remarried. If a sacrament leaves an indelible mark that means it is there forever and cannot be repeated. This applies to baptism, confirmation, and priestly ordination.

Even when a priest leaves ministry and gets married, he is still a priest and his soul forever carries the “mark” of priesthood.