I believe(d) ?....

[squirt]

AnAtheist:

I am glad you asked. I like to present those aspects as questions, if you don’t mind, as they are puzzling anyway:

(list omitted to save space)

Hi AnAtheist ,

Do you wanna put these in a new thread? I’m Catholic now and I still find many of these things ‘weird’. My attitude has changed to one where I try to understand from within theism instead of from without, but they are the types of questions that cross my mind all the time.

 

[MaryLynne]

mango_2003:

Um…heh.

I was raised in a cult. Stopped attending. Then I started attending again. Then quit religion all together…did some pretty wild stuff for a few years.

Then, after a VERY tough year and a half, I finally accepted the truth. Been a Christian for almost a year now.

~mango~

thank you for sharing…I’ll keep you in my prayers…

 

[Gryphon]

AnAtheist:

pro-choice: Is that pro-abortion? If so, it might surprise you that I was an anti-abortion-activist ~15 year ago. Peacefully of course, not running around shooting doctors, and not on a black/white basis, for I would allow some few reasons for an abortion (e.g. rapist victim). Plus, I was not the only atheist in that group, we were actually two. What scared us away after a while, was actually the catholic majority that didn’t understand our motives and frequently denied, that we had a set of morals. Cite: “You are an atheist without a conscience, how can you possibly be against abortion?” :banghead:
Guess, now you want a reason. It makes little sense to me, that a society condemns killing in general (esp. death penalty) and allows killing infants for economical reasons at the same time. Doesn’t fit somehow. I am pro-prevention though. Prevents not only pregnacy but a of abortions as well.

Now that’s really sad that you were scared away by the pro-life Catholics… shame on them! I’ve always had a lot of respect for the folks like Nat Hentoff. His response to the question of why he was pro-life was along the lines of, “I’m an atheist. This life is all we get.”

Can’t agree with the pro-contraceptive position though. History shows that where contraception takes root, abortions increase, not decrease. It’s the anti-life philosophy that plants the seed - contraception and abortion are the weeds grow from it. Similarly - abortion is not the best solution for rape victims… just intensifies the feelings of guilt, unworthiness, low self-esteem that rape victims suffer.

God bless,

Gryphon

 

[AnAtheist]

Gryphon:

Can’t agree with the pro-contraceptive position though. History shows that where contraception takes root, abortions increase, not decrease. It’s the anti-life philosophy that plants the seed - contraception and abortion are the weeds grow from it.

I don’t regard contraception as anti-life (“condoms can harm the health of your child before it’s conceived” ?). Well, I don’t regard sex as a sin either. But I firmly believe that people should stand responsible for the outcome of their actions. That includes caring for a child after having had sex without contraception.

Gryphon:

Similarly - abortion is not the best solution for rape victims… just intensifies the feelings of guilt, unworthiness, low self-esteem that rape victims suffer.

Hm, I won’t apply that to any rape victim. For some or maybe most of them you might be right. I don’t feel compotent enough to judge.

 

[BobCatholic]

First, welcome! I look forward to some good discussions

AnAtheist:

Then why are you not Muslim? They have a hell equally undesirable as the christian one but a far better heaven.

Who told you that?

Let’s see. The Beatific vision versus 72 virgins. Hey, no contest! The Beatific Vision wins hands down!

Obviously, Islam is selling something other than good motives here.

 

[Audrey]

copland:

I spent most my life as a non-believer. But I put my faith in the Lord at 22. I am still in the Protestant circles right now, but I am won over to the Catholic Church. I hope and pray that my family and I will be Catholics one day!!

Please know that I will keep you and your family in my prayers that one day you will all come to see the Catholic Church as the one Church that Jesus Himself founded. God Bless You!

 

[asor]

Panis Angelicas:

Okeeeeeeeee…So, I’m kind of wondering why asor calls him/herself a Catholic at all, since he seems to be interpretting the Sacred Scriptures for himself and making erroneous judgement calls.

Must’ve missed the part that says “He who hears you, hears Me,” “I give you the keys to the kingdom,” “Upon this rock, I will build My Church…” Jesus Christ established an **authority **within His Church. The faithful are those who adhere to that wisdom, not those who pridefully pick and choose, cafeteria style.

You can’t re-invent Catholicism, any more than you can re-invent CHRISTianity. Christ already did that for us, and the Catholic Church is the Church CHRIST founded, of which HE is the Head, and we members are the Body.

What you’re espousing, Martin Luther already attempted. History shows what a disastrous experiment that was.

Oh, and I agree! It’s good to see atheists and Wiccans, etc., all interested in dialoguing with us Catholics!

Pax Christi. <><

Hi, Pax. I believe that God allows us to find Him, not just believe in Him, that we´re all His instruments, as we allow ourselves to be. God is spiritual, no doubt. We can learn from Him. Pax, I place God ABOVE EVERYTHING/EVERYONE; I don´t believe this results in erroneous judgement calls. God touched my heart (not until I profoundly sought Him); I´ve placed Him FIRST (not second as many tend to do) and I´ve never felt so complete and fulfilled as now. I know I didn´t have to give up everything (materially speaking) but I found Him. I´ve learned that when one has Him one has everything. I can sincerely tell you that I seek God´s guidance before I ´live´. I´m based on WWJD, not what would man think. How many can say they live like that because they choose to. No man could have convinced me of this, but God accepted my surrender to Him and I wouldn´t have it differently. Make a DEEP connection with God and maybe you could begin to understand me. I respect your point of view, but I needed to make my point more clear. I extend a heartfelt to you, Pax, and I pray God touches your heart as He touched mine. It´s a feeling I wish all could experience. We all experience God differently. I´m awed by His power and glory in the way He has allowed me to live Him. God warns us that in religions there will be human rules, and that´s true. So either we reach out to God to live Him or we live the alternative. We must make that direct connection with God for His TRUTH, not totally worldy believes. I remain a Catholic but if I believe Jesus founded this Church I need to feel that it´s following God´s truth. What better way than to ask God and study His Word. Read Isaiah 40:12 and on to learn His Power. We learn from each other, but God´s my No. 1 Teacher. If someone believes one can´t learn by connecting with God thru prayer than you´re missing the best part of life and it´s up to you to find it.

 

[rmikulas]

I was raised believing in GOD. I staryed away for awhile after my sister died when she was 12 (I was about 15). I went on a search to find out about other religons and came back to the Catholic Religon. Now 8 years later I am on that search again, this time not to find GOD (as I have him with me I believe) but to find out about other religons and how others view him. To find what others believe in as I think everyone needs something or someone to believe in.

 

[PaulDupre]

I didn’t always believe in God, but He always believed in me.
Paul

 

[milimac]

I don’t remember a thing the first few years of my life, but luckily, my parents believed for me. Although there have been doubts along the way, for as long as I can remember having the ability to believe, I have.

 

[James_Kanatous]

I understand what you all are thinking and where you are directing your thoughts, however, the problem is that since there is no conceptual definition of God, one cannot possibly suggest to his or her self that God, in the abstract, does or does not exist. On the contrary, what one can do, and what people often do, is make the word God into something conceivable, and then suggest its existence. For instance, when you think of God, you probably have some sort of an appreciable, personal and intimate conception of what God is, and you therefore self-suggest that God is real and that you are able to communicate with God in an empirical manner, wherein God is able to hear and understand your most inner thoughts, and that in turn you are able to ‘feel’ God’s response. It is self-hypnosis, and it is quite simple to do actually. I did it throughout my entire childhood, as I was trained and constructed to do it, until I realized that if I were able to think about God in a positive manner, then it would not be God. Accordingly, I do not suggest to myself that God is either real or unreal, but rather I deduce that God is something–in the ordinary sense of the word ‘something’–incomprehensible, and likewise unknowable.

 

[Peace-bwu]

copland:

I spent most my life as a non-believer. But I put my faith in the Lord at 22. I am still in the Protestant circles right now, but I am won over to the Catholic Church. I hope and pray that my family and I will be Catholics one day!!

Copland,
I will pray for you and with you tonight! I feel so blessed to have been raised Catholic. As a child I accepted the teachings as a child, but as an adult I often find myself in tears at Mass as I offer my life to Christ and He gives his true presence to us in such a glorious way under the humble appearance of bread and wine. I pray you experience the fullness of the Truth and the Sacraments Christ will give to you.
Peace of Christ Be With You!

 

[milimac]

James Kanatous:

…one cannot possibly suggest to his or her self that God, in the abstract, does or does not exist. On the contrary, what one can do, and what people often do, is make the word God into something conceivable, and then suggest its existence. …It is self-hypnosis, and it is quite simple to do actually. …Accordingly, I do not suggest to myself that God is either real or unreal, but rather I deduce that God is something–in the ordinary sense of the word ‘something’–incomprehensible, and likewise unknowable.

And yet, according to your profile, you’re an athiest who by definition denies the existence of God. So it appears that you too are guilty of self-hypnosis. All you have done is made the word “God” into something you can conceive and deny its existence. You too have made a leap of faith.

Perhaps you’re really agnostic and not atheist?

I agree that we can’t completely know God, but through reason we can know of him and that he exists. You can never use something less than God to “prove” the existence of God (such as science, nature, philosophy, psychology, etc.). We all have our different notions of God, and some are therefore closer to or further away from the actual truth. I don’t perfectly know myself, yet I’m pretty sure I exist (well someone wrote this anyway).

As Catholics, we believe the only one who perfectly knows God, is God Himself. And that perfect knowledge of Himself is the Son.

 

[philjane]

I think that I have always believed—I was raised in a strict Catholic family that believed you should go to Mass oftener than once a week (if possible). As a child i remember going to a neighbouring parish for saturday morning mass & thus witnessed a lot of weddings & so I had the wedding vows memorized & can still recite them to this day. I started going to daily mass at 19 & have continued to this day which is about 38 years now.

 

[Veronica_Anne]

AnAtheist:

would allow some few reasons for an abortion (e.g. rapist victim).

Thanks for joining the discussions on this board, dear AnAtheist. I’m interested in what you have to say.

May I share this with anyone reading this thread?

A friend of mine is a victim of rape. She chose to have the child that was conceived from that rape.

Her son, now 25 years old, is STILL a huge joy for her. And yes, he knows that he’s the result of his mother being raped. And he is glad to know that, too.

So, please, as much as I appreciate that some folks think that it’s an act of mercy for a woman who has become pregnant from a rape to have an abortion…

Abortion is never the answer. That woman will always have that memory of being raped. Add on to it the results of having an abortion, well… that’s a double whammy.

afterabortion.org/

Add on to that the fact that her suffering and grieving over having aborted her child is a forbidden grief in a society that continues to yell out that “don’t feel bad!! You made a choice and have the RIGHT to make that choice!!”

That’s a triple whammy!!

See the book with the title: Forbidden Grief, by Dr. Therese Burke about the cultural and psychological obstacles to healing after an abortion.

amazon.com/gp/reader/0964895781/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-5650176-1831108#reader-link

Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts here.

 

[Veronica_Anne]

Peace-bwu:

Copland,
I will pray for you and with you tonight! I feel so blessed to have been raised Catholic. As a child I accepted the teachings as a child, but as an adult I often find myself in tears at Mass as I offer my life to Christ and He gives his true presence to us in such a glorious way under the humble appearance of bread and wine. I pray you experience the fullness of the Truth and the Sacraments Christ will give to you.
Peace of Christ Be With You!

Me, too. I’ll pray for you AnAtheist.

Like you Peace-bwu, I find myself in tears at Mass. Sometimes, after I’ve received His Real Presence in Holy Communion, it’s beyond tears.

Once in a great while, I wonder whether I’m self-delusional. Then, after Mass, something amazing and totally unexpected and supremely good happens in my life, that day, that moment and I just KNOW that it’s Him.

**I do not understand so that I may believe; 
I believe so that I may understand.**
- St. Anselm

 

[Meggie]

I’m not sure if I believe in God. I know He’s there somewhere. I guess I just don’t know becasue I don’t know how to see God. My parents had always taught me that God is vengful and terrifying, that God will “get you” if you don’t behave and go to Mass on Sunday.
In my home life I took comfort in God’s protection from certin things, but latley I don’t know really feel that God is presant. My friends at church tell me God is a loving God…but I don’t really see it…I don’t understand it and I am bordering on not beleving it.

 

[squirt]

Meggie:

I’m not sure if I believe in God. I know He’s there somewhere. I guess I just don’t know becasue I don’t know how to see God. My parents had always taught me that God is vengful and terrifying, that God will “get you” if you don’t behave and go to Mass on Sunday.
In my home life I took comfort in God’s protection from certin things, but latley I don’t know really feel that God is presant. My friends at church tell me God is a loving God…but I don’t really see it…I don’t understand it and I am bordering on not beleving it.

Unfortunately, many people seem to be generally unable to ‘sense’ God’s presence. Or only sense His presence intermittently. That can make faith a bit difficult. (OK, a lot difficult.) Sometimes I wish that I could know what it’s like to never doubt that He’s really there, or if He is there that He really is omnibenevolent. Maybe it’s better this way for me to have doubts on an ongoing basis … I just try to trust that for some reason, faith punctuated by doubts that are eventually overcome is actually a good thing.

I was talking to my ‘big brother’ the other day about this, and he was telling me that the Church is there to protect us through these periods. So I try to continue to listen to what the Church has to tell us about God during these times …

 

[Veronica_Anne]

Meggie:

I’m not sure if I believe in God. I know He’s there somewhere. I guess I just don’t know becasue I don’t know how to see God. My parents had always taught me that God is vengful and terrifying, that God will “get you” if you don’t behave and go to Mass on Sunday.
In my home life I took comfort in God’s protection from certin things, but latley I don’t know really feel that God is presant. My friends at church tell me God is a loving God…but I don’t really see it…I don’t understand it and I am bordering on not beleving it.

Y’know, Megge, I have a friend who was brought up the same way… parents taught her that God is a venegful, and even spiteful, God. A judgemental God.

To be honest, I wouldn’t want to have a God like THAT God, myself!! I don’t blame her for being gun-shy about even TALKING about God.

Lately, she came back into the Catholic Church through a program called Landings, which is for folks who’ve been brought up Catholic and went away, and are thinking about coming back.

Many of the folks at Landings have the same experiences that you’re talking about for your experience. I humbly suggest that perhaps you’d like to find a Landings group near you so that you can at least talk about these things with other people having the same or pretty much a similar experience. Some of those folks are bordering on agnostic and even atheism, which is where I perceive (only from what you’ve said here) may be where you are at the moment?

landings-international.org/about.ssi

Landings is: A safe harbor or landing place for returning Catholics to explore their faith and their future with the Church. A group of six to eight active Catholics joined together to welcome two or three returning Catholics to share and explore faith together.

**While Landings is not: ** The “saved” welcoming the “sinners.” People pressuring others to return. Full of answers to teach the unenlightened. Blind to the hurt the Church may have caused someone…

**Landings is: ** People in solidarity with the returning, who in their own lives have “returned,” and continue to “return.” Founded on the belief that we do not have to be trained theologians to share what we believe, and to speak honestly about our faith, trusting in the Holy Spirit.

A PAULIST PROGRAM FOR RETURNING CATHOLICS

We all have this happen with us… sometimes we are aware of God being around… and sometimes (sometimes MOST of the time) we’re totally not feeling or sensing or even knowing that God is right there. :banghead:

His presence is a mystery… so I can’t explain it very well (it being a mystery).

When I’m feeling out of touch with God, and really REALLY have to be aware of Him at that very moment to calm my soul/psyche/whatever, I’ll look up to the sky.



Somehow, it’s the sky – no matter whether clear, or cloudy, or rainy, or stormy, or snowy, or light, or dark, with moon or without… that is so overwhelming to me that all I can do is look up and say a breathless WOW!!

I’ll stand in a parking lot for a dozen minutes at a time, just looking up as people go in and out of the store… in and out of their cars… and there I am, just looking up, and all I can say or think is WOW!!

Imagine… the God that created all that… the God that created laughter… created ME!!!

WOW!!

:bowdown2: :bowdown: :clapping:

I’m prayin’ for ya, Meggie.

I do not understand so that I may believe; 
I believe so that I may understand.
- St. Anselm

 

[Meggie]

veronica,

Thank you very much for that link…as well as I can put it my faith calls me to do even in my disbelief. I obstantly refuse to beleive there isn’t a God when He is so good to my friends who do believe in Him. So I even go so far as go to Daily Mass. I like that becasue I can know God is there. God is there when I am walking to church…but somehow in the chaos of everyday I think He forgets were I live. Everyone laughs when I say this…but that is really what it is like.