I Believe in One God

[rinnie]

Please explain to me why you think “being fully human” involves being fallen, having concupiscence? Did God make humanity with disorders and inclinations to sin? Do you imagine that God did not make Adam and Eve human? Did Adam only become “human” after he sinned and created a disorder in God’s creation? Jesus was completely and perfectly human- The way God intended, not the disordered form. He took up our human nature- not our disorders- Christ had no inclination to sin.

I am thinking what we need to show her more on, is the Suffering of Christ. I think if we can somehow show her that he was human not in his desire to sin, but in his suffering. that the suffering is where he was completely human like us, and can relate to the pain of what suffering is.

Like also when he died on the cross. His physical suffering was as painful, and the mental suffering he underwent when he was being tempted to sin by the devil.

That the temptation that the devil gives to us, is no different then temptation the devil used on Christ, he takes something that is truly big, to try to make us sin.

Like for instance you look at these kids today on that crack. They claim it is the suffering of your body that is so painful that many cannot give up the addiction.

I have read that Jesus Christ is who they are finding in the midst of that suffering, and with him they can overpower the drug and pain.

This I think is where maybe we can show her the pain of the suffering, the physical need for the drug, can still be overcome with the help of God.

The difference would be Christ would never do the drug in the first place, BUT he can relate to the physical pain in every single way, and the mental pain as well. And he can relate to the Human response to end the pain and give into the drug once more.

Then it ties into the scripture that with Christ we can overpower any sin that is given to us. Because by Christ DOING it, he made it possible for us also.

That is how many rehabs fail in the short term, but the ones that involved Christ, those kids made it, and can stay clean. They are seeing that they need a higher being, that can relate to their pain, and with Jesus showing us you can be HUMAN and still do it. But it takes grace only by him, that it can be done.

 

[mercytruth]

Please explain to me why you think “being fully human” involves being fallen, having concupiscence? Did God make humanity with disorders and inclinations to sin? Do you imagine that God did not make Adam and Eve human? Did Adam only become “human” after he sinned and created a disorder in God’s creation? Jesus was completely and perfectly human- The way God intended, not the disordered form. He took up our human nature- not our disorders- Christ had no inclination to sin.

I have already quoted early church fathers, and the aforementioned scriptures which say our Lord Jesus Christ was in a human body like the Levitical priests, who knew what it was to be tempted with sin as their own people of Israel.

If you are trying to get out of me what sort of particular sins our Lord Jesus Christ was tempted with, neither the scriptures, nor early church fathers delineate. Only that he had like passions as ourselves.

I might add, that there were attitudes of the heart that Jesus Christ did not fall into. Our Lord could have become discouraged by many circumstances in his ministry, but he did not. Our Lord could have complained about many circumstances during his ministry, but he did not. Our Lord could have become fearful during many of the events in his life, but he did not. Our Lord could have become bitter over the denial by the apostle Peter, and the betrayal by Judas, but he did not. All of these are internal temptations that our Lord Jesus Christ most likely faced without falling into sin, because he did not entertain them, or dwell on them.

This is how I would respond to any other human passions that we face in our lives. Our Lord Jesus might have been tempted with such passions, but he never entertained them, or dwelt upon them, if he had, he would have sinned.

Maybe you could answer my question, which no one else has answered so far.
Did our Lord Jesus Christ become perfected by his temptations and sufferings in order for him to become our great High Priest after the order of Melchizedek?

God’s peace.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Maybe you could answer my question, which no one else has answered so far.
Did our Lord Jesus Christ become perfected by his temptations and sufferings in order for him to become our great High Priest after the order of Melchizedek?

God’s peace.

No, the second person of the Trinity became fully human fully devine at the Incarnation. Temptation is an example to us. Maybe I misunderstand?

 

[mercytruth]

No, the second person of the Trinity became fully human fully devine at the Incarnation. Temptation is an example to us. Maybe I misunderstand?

I was referring to post #168 and the scriptures from the book of Hebrews quoted therein.

God’s peace.

 

[rinnie]

Our Lord Jesus Christ struggled with the same weaknesses that the Levitical high priest struggled with. The difference being is that the Levitical high priests were not able to overcome their propensities to sin, our Lord Jesus Christ did overcome such temptations.

I think people tend to interpret scripture from the lens of their own pre-conceived belief systems. I have attempted to use the plain understanding of these scriptures along with the teachings of the early church fathers prior to the Nicene Council. If someone can give me clear scriptures with the writings of early church fathers prior to the Nicene Council that explain their understanding they are welcomed to do so.

For this reason he had to be made like them,[a] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. (Hebrews 2:17-18)

But where is suffering considered sin? Where is overcomming the temptation Sin?

Here is another way of seeing this.

Okay now before I say anything lets not make this about purgatory.

But in the RCC Purgatory is a place where you go when you die, when you are not in a state of Mortal sin. But you have to go through the final cleansing.

Now why is the final cleansing needed. Simple. Just kind of what we are talking about here.

In order to enter heaven you have to become Holy like Christ is Holy. You have to become a Saint. How is that possible.

Purgatory, here is why There are very few people who leave this world perfected in Christ It IS possible. But very very difficult. Why?

Simple. Just like what we are talking about. When we are in a state of sin, rather it be mortal or venial, there is something about the sin, that attracts us. That is why when we confess our sin, and are forgiven, we sometimes REPEAT that sin. Its the REWARD we get out of the sin whatever it is.

Now to be perfected in Christ the want or reward of the sin, the instant reward has to be completely wiped out of our minds. We have to become ONE in mind with Christ Which means no Want to sin ever again.

That is what makes us Saints and what makes us perfected in him.

Like for instance the person on crack that I mentioned. They can stay away from the crack, but in order to be perfected in Christ and rid of the sin forever they can never want the Feeling which had to be pretty good every again. They have to only want rid of the sin and have Christ in mind.

When they finally become not only cured from the hold that the sin has over them, the actual want is over forever. They no longer see ANY part of good in it.

That is how Christ is with sin, No matter how tempted he never had the urge to ever do it. He could not. If he even had the urge it is venial sin.

We are taught as the scripture states if a man even looks a women in lust, it is a sin, Not mortal, but venial. Venial Sin exists. Venial sin is the good that you can get out of a sin in your mind, as in lust the reward is the feeling of (well you know) but anyway its a sin.

Christ never had even Venial Sin, Which venial sin is the thought. If Christ had even venial sin, he would not be free from sin.

Because to be sinless means to never have sinned mortal or venial. It had to take a Saint, someone who was both Human and Divine to conquer sin. Christ Jesus was the same SPOTLESS Lamb that was offered up in the O.T.

He was the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world.

 

[Pythons]

I was referring to post #168 and the scriptures from the book of Hebrews quoted therein.

God’s peace.

Let’s look at it.
mercytruth quotes Hebrews:

Having therefore a great high priest that hath passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God: let us hold fast our confession. For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: BUT one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin. Let us go therefore with confidence to the throne of grace: that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid. (Hebrews 4:16-18).

The text says Christ has compassion for “our” infirmities…
…So let’s look that word up and see what it means.
…It has two meanings.

1. want of strength, weakness, infirmity

a) of the body

1. its native weakness and frailty
2. feebleness of health or sickness

&

**b) of the soul

1. want of strength and capacity requisite

a) to understand a thing

b) to do things great and glorious

c) to restrain corrupt desires**

It shouldn’t take much thought into the matter to understand what meaning the author of Hebrews intended…
…Afterall - did Christ have a weak soul or “restrain corrupt desires”?

Jesus felt what it was like to get sick, get tired and hungry - be tortured beyond words…
…Jesus KNOWS 1st hand as a member of the human family exactly what it is like.
…This is the meaning of Hebrews, period.

It has NOTHING at all to do with having corrupt desires or cravings for sin.

 

[rinnie]

In Hebrews 10:12 It shows the Priest was incapable of taking away our sins.

Christ took them away by one single Sacrifice for sins and then taken his seat forever at the right hand of God. 10:12

Heb. 4:14 Since in Jesus the son of God we have the Supreme high Priest who has gone to the highest heaven, we must hold firm to our profession of faith.

For we have a high Priest who is NOT INCAPABLE of feeling our WEAKNESS WITH Us, but has been put to the Test EXACTLY the same way as ourselves APART from Sin. Let us THEN have no FEAR in approaching the throne of Grace to receive mercy and to fi nd GRACE when WE ARE in NEED of Help.

That is the exact words APART from sin. Christ knows and feels our weakness, but to feel our weakness does not mean you have to have sin.

 

[Marybeloved]

I have already quoted early church fathers, and the aforementioned scriptures which say our Lord Jesus Christ was in a human body like the Levitical priests, who knew what it was to be tempted with sin as their own people of Israel.

If you are trying to get out of me what sort of particular sins our Lord Jesus Christ was tempted with, neither the scriptures, nor early church fathers delineate. Only that he had like passions as ourselves.

No, you quoted the Bible saying that Christ was fully human in support of your contentions that he also had inclinations toward sin. I asked you a simple question in response- Why do you think that being “fully human” involves inclinations to sins? In fact we are not fully “human”- that is, not truly what God designed us to be- not fully possessing the nature he made for us, which is why we need salvation, sanctification, divinization, restoration.

Jesus is much more human in his lack of tendencies to sin than you and I with our constant pulls toward the self, the world, the flesh and the devil in opposition to God. You and I are as “unnatural” in terms of humanity as a sick person is, in terms of health. Saying that his lack of inclinations to sin somehow takes away from his being human is like saying that a person with AIDS or CANCER has a more true bodily nature than those who are not sick.* These faults and inclinations to sin are to the Soul and our overall humanity what cancer is to the body. *Being perfect is what is most perfectly human- not being inclined to rebel against God and to sin against him. God made nothing so that it would be turned away from him. Our true “nature” or humanity is being fully, easily, naturally, perfectly yielded to the Divine will- the opposite represents a corruption of our nature, so that our nature is deformed. Jesus was/is FULLY human- He was perfectly, naturally, happily yielded to the Divine will.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I was referring to post #168 and the scriptures from the book of Hebrews quoted therein.

God’s peace.

Ok I see, Think about this and let me know your thoughts.

Focusing on the Fully Human is overlooking the Fully Divine in our Presence.

Its

In the begining was the Word

The Word was with God

The Word was God.

The Word became Flesh.

Hebrews doesn’t distract from this. Its informing us of the human feelings of Flesh and Blood the Lord took upon Himself for our condition. Which was Death. Christ takes Death and Nails it to the Cross for our salvation. His Blood spilled with no limit till the death of the Flesh. Lasting message I would say.

The Human aspect never distracts from God the Second person Trinity. He didn’t become that, He already was God.

Priesthood, Temptation, Angels administering to the Lord is further testament first to his Divinity and to His Humanity with was subject to this world though Love. He needed nothing from us here. In Love He came here for us to returm Salvation by opening Heaven. His message in the Flesh is to show us our path, because we are seeking His Kingdom of eternity in the Flesh, He shows us the response to Evil in the Flesh. Now through His Grace to show you how to follow His message.

There was nothing anyone could do here for the Lord in humanity but to Listen to the Word and Choose through Free-Will to cooperate with Him. As we see many choose not to listen, that too is indictive of today. Love was the message, to Love Your Neighbor as I have Loved You.

Everything the Lord did was in no uncertain terms. No Garden, we are in exile, as He was when He showed the path out, and left His everlasting covenant. To help us stay in constant Grace with Him. He understands the trial, as He walked within it.

HIs question to His Apostles is the same as it is today to us. Will you leave me also?

Hope it helps.

 

[Marybeloved]

If I may add:

“What God has not assumed, God has not saved” - Gregory of Nyssa

He had to assume our fallen nature to heal us of it.

This assumes (wrongly) that the “fallenness” quality/character or concupiscence is a positive being (has actual existence in itself) rather than simply a lack of something, an emptiness, a lack of right order. So that you can now say (wrongly) that Christ assumed these dis-orders to heal them. Wrong. Christ assumed our nature (which exists) and pinned it on the cross- he did not have to assume emptiness to heal it, because “healing it” means only to give it full stature/nature as God intended.

 

[RyanBlack]

This assumes (wrongly) that the “fallenness” quality/character or concupiscence is a positive being (has actual existence in itself) rather than simply a lack of something, an emptiness, a lack of right order. So that you can now say (wrongly) that Christ assumed these dis-orders to heal them. Wrong. Christ assumed our nature (which exists) and pinned it on the cross- he did not have to assume emptiness to heal it, because “healing it” means only to give it full stature/nature as God intended.

I agree with what you have stated. I would also add that the post to which you are responding exhibits a misunderstanding of how St. Gregory of Nazianzus (I know this quote from Nazianzus, not from St. Gregory of Nyssa) understood salvation. For the Cappadocian Fathers, salvation is understood as theosis, or deification, and great emphasis is placed on the Incarnation. From this point of view, an individual human is saved by participation in the ideal, or perfect human, Christ. Had Christ assumed a humanity that was fallen, then the Incarnation would not be salvific.

 

[mercytruth]

But where is suffering considered sin? Where is overcomming the temptation Sin?

Here is another way of seeing this.

Okay now before I say anything lets not make this about purgatory.

But in the RCC Purgatory is a place where you go when you die, when you are not in a state of Mortal sin. But you have to go through the final cleansing.

Now why is the final cleansing needed. Simple. Just kind of what we are talking about here.

In order to enter heaven you have to become Holy like Christ is Holy. You have to become a Saint. How is that possible.

Purgatory, here is why There are very few people who leave this world perfected in Christ It IS possible. But very very difficult. Why?

Simple. Just like what we are talking about. When we are in a state of sin, rather it be mortal or venial, there is something about the sin, that attracts us. That is why when we confess our sin, and are forgiven, we sometimes REPEAT that sin. Its the REWARD we get out of the sin whatever it is.

Now to be perfected in Christ the want or reward of the sin, the instant reward has to be completely wiped out of our minds. We have to become ONE in mind with Christ Which means no Want to sin ever again.

That is what makes us Saints and what makes us perfected in him.

Like for instance the person on crack that I mentioned. They can stay away from the crack, but in order to be perfected in Christ and rid of the sin forever they can never want the Feeling which had to be pretty good every again. They have to only want rid of the sin and have Christ in mind.

When they finally become not only cured from the hold that the sin has over them, the actual want is over forever. They no longer see ANY part of good in it.

That is how Christ is with sin, No matter how tempted he never had the urge to ever do it. He could not. If he even had the urge it is venial sin.

We are taught as the scripture states if a man even looks a women in lust, it is a sin, Not mortal, but venial. Venial Sin exists. Venial sin is the good that you can get out of a sin in your mind, as in lust the reward is the feeling of (well you know) but anyway its a sin.

Christ never had even Venial Sin, Which venial sin is the thought. If Christ had even venial sin, he would not be free from sin.

Because to be sinless means to never have sinned mortal or venial. It had to take a Saint, someone who was both Human and Divine to conquer sin. Christ Jesus was the same SPOTLESS Lamb that was offered up in the O.T.

He was the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world.

Rinnie,

You are beggining to offend me by continuing to imply that I said our Lord Jesus Christ sinned.

I am repeating the word of holy scriptures. In all ways he was tempted like us, yet without sin(ning).

 

[mercytruth]

Ok I see, Think about this and let me know your thoughts.

Focusing on the Fully Human is overlooking the Fully Divine in our Presence.

Its

In the begining was the Word

The Word was with God

The Word was God.

The Word became Flesh.

Hebrews doesn’t distract from this. Its informing us of the human feelings of Flesh and Blood the Lord took upon Himself for our condition. Which was Death. Christ takes Death and Nails it to the Cross for our salvation. His Blood spilled with no limit till the death of the Flesh. Lasting message I would say.

The Human aspect never distracts from God the Second person Trinity. He didn’t become that, He already was God.

Priesthood, Temptation, Angels administering to the Lord is further testament first to his Divinity and to His Humanity with was subject to this world though Love. He needed nothing from us here. In Love He came here for us to returm Salvation by opening Heaven. His message in the Flesh is to show us our path, because we are seeking His Kingdom of eternity in the Flesh, He shows us the response to Evil in the Flesh. Now through His Grace to show you how to follow His message.

There was nothing anyone could do here for the Lord in humanity but to Listen to the Word and Choose through Free-Will to cooperate with Him. As we see many choose not to listen, that too is indictive of today. Love was the message, to Love Your Neighbor as I have Loved You.

Everything the Lord did was in no uncertain terms. No Garden, we are in exile, as He was when He showed the path out, and left His everlasting covenant. To help us stay in constant Grace with Him. He understands the trial, as He walked within it.

HIs question to His Apostles is the same as it is today to us. Will you leave me also?

Hope it helps.

Was it necessary for our Lord Jesus Christ to be perfected through temptations and sufferings in order for him to become our Great High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek?

 

[mercytruth]

No, you quoted the Bible saying that Christ was fully human in support of your contentions that he also had inclinations toward sin. I asked you a simple question in response- Why do you think that being “fully human” involves inclinations to sins? In fact we are not fully “human”- that is, not truly what God designed us to be- not fully possessing the nature he made for us, which is why we need salvation, sanctification, divinization, restoration.

Jesus is much more human in his lack of tendencies to sin than you and I with our constant pulls toward the self, the world, the flesh and the devil in opposition to God. You and I are as “unnatural” in terms of humanity as a sick person is, in terms of health. Saying that his lack of inclinations to sin somehow takes away from his being human is like saying that a person with AIDS or CANCER has a more true bodily nature than those who are not sick.* These faults and inclinations to sin are to the Soul and our overall humanity what cancer is to the body. *Being perfect is what is most perfectly human- not being inclined to rebel against God and to sin against him. God made nothing so that it would be turned away from him. Our true “nature” or humanity is being fully, easily, naturally, perfectly yielded to the Divine will- the opposite represents a corruption of our nature, so that our nature is deformed. Jesus was/is FULLY human- He was perfectly, naturally, happily yielded to the Divine will.

I know what I quoted, refer to post #168. It is my understanding of scripture that God does not give us a soul with inclinations toward evil.

 

[mercytruth]

Let’s look at it.

The text says Christ has compassion for “our” infirmities…
…So let’s look that word up and see what it means.
…It has two meanings.

1. want of strength, weakness, infirmity

a) of the body

1. its native weakness and frailty
2. feebleness of health or sickness

&

**b) of the soul

1. want of strength and capacity requisite

a) to understand a thing

b) to do things great and glorious

c) to restrain corrupt desires**

It shouldn’t take much thought into the matter to understand what meaning the author of Hebrews intended…
…Afterall - did Christ have a weak soul or “restrain corrupt desires”?

Jesus felt what it was like to get sick, get tired and hungry - be tortured beyond words…
…Jesus KNOWS 1st hand as a member of the human family exactly what it is like.
…This is the meaning of Hebrews, period.

It has NOTHING at all to do with having corrupt desires or cravings for sin.

Without taking into account the infirmities that the Levitical high priest were encumbered with, we can not understand what the writer to the letter to Hebrews is speaking. Clearly, with regard to the infirimities of the Levitical high priest, his infirmity was toward sinning in the same manner as were the people of Israel.

Further, I do not believe the holy scriptures teach that God gives to us an impure soul at conception. We are created in the likeness and image of God. Our inward nature is created free from sin. The apostle Paul speaks of this when he says, that 'the good that I would, I do not do".

 

[Marybeloved]

I know what I quoted, refer to post #168. It is my understanding of scripture that God does not give us a soul with inclinations toward evil.

Do you think your opinions are God’s? That is very presumptuous. The scriptures say nowhere that Christ had a fallen nature, you are choosing to read your own presumptions into them because you assume you know them better than the church. The scriptures say Christ was tempted in every way as we are, and indeed he was. They dont say he had our diseases! Only that he suffered and died for them! For OUR iniquity, disease, they say- NOT his! You assume that everywhere the scripture says “human” it means our fallen state. These are your readings into them, NOT what God is saying. God’s spokesperson is the church and she has explained the meaning of scripture to us.

 

[mercytruth]

Do you think your opinions are God’s? That is very presumptuous. The scriptures say nowhere that Christ had a fallen nature, you are choosing to read your own presumptions into them because you assume you know them better than the church. The scriptures say Christ was tempted in every way as we are, and indeed he was. They dont say he had our diseases! Only that he suffered and died for them! For OUR iniquity, disease, they say- NOT his! You assume that everywhere the scripture says “human” it means our fallen state. These are your readings into them, NOT what God is saying. God’s spokesperson is the church and she has explained the meaning of scripture to us.

I have already quoted several early church fathers, my ‘presumptions’ are not presumptions they are the teachings of several early church fathers. None of you will answer the question that I have been asking. Was it necessary for our Lord Jesus Christ to be perfected through temptations and sufferings in order for him to become the Great High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek?

 

[Marybeloved]

I see you’ve edited your post. My first line in my post above was in response to what you had said to me directing me to refer to your previous posts and to “argue with God” and not with you… Had to explain that so people don’t wonder why I started with a line that is somewhat harsh asking you why you conflate personal interpretations of scripture with God’s own teaching/proclamations.

 

[mercytruth]

I have no desire to continue these discussions with any of you who will ignore the scriptures. If the Nicene Council had focused on the word of God, and not men’s opinions and philosphical rationalizations we would not have a divided and unsanctified church to this day.

Jesus Christ prayed,** “Sanctified them by thy truth, for thy word is truth”.** (John17:17)

At least the Rabbis would discuss alternate understandings of holy scriptures without calling each other heretics. We could learn something from our elder brothers of the Abrahamic faith.

May God have mercy on our stubborn souls, and may each of us, including myself, learn that our opinions are a rival to God and to His Word.

 

[Marybeloved]

I have already quoted several early church fathers, my ‘presumptions’ are not presumptions they are the teachings of several early church fathers. None of you will answer the question that I have been asking. Was it necessary for our Lord Jesus Christ to be perfected through temptations and sufferings in order for him to become the Great High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek?

You have already been answered. Christ took on our temptations and sufferings, our plight, so that he could represent us. Just like if you joined a tribe to be its leader you would have to go through their rights of passage even if you did not need to. Our lord took on our “rights of passage” which is to be tempted and to triumph, to suffer and to overcome. Not because he himself lacked and needed perfection but because that is OUR route. He went through it voluntarily for love of us, not because he HAD to. Remember, he said that no-one takes his life from him but he himself lays it down and takes it up again. So, No- Christ did not “need” to be perfected through temptations and suffering, but he took it upon himself freely for love of us and his Father.