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rinnie
Guest
Oh mercy please forgive me, I would never do that. :imsorry::flowers:
Now I am a little confused then, I thought you were saying he was tempted to sin. Mercy help me here, what it it then we are disagreeing on?
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Now I am a little confused then, I thought you were saying he was tempted to sin. Mercy help me here, what it it then we are disagreeing on?
M
Marybeloved
Guest
Clearly the real issue here is a conviction in private interpretations over and above that of divinely established authority. Why do you yourself ignore scripture when it says of Christ’s chosen leaders that: He who hears you hears me? Even st. Peter warns against those who insist on interpreting sacred writings privately, to their own destruction. Christ gave us a church and authority before he gave us the writings of the Apostles. It seems you still believe in the protestant error of rejecting God’s own chosen method of teaching and guidance (The Church) even though you’ve become Catholic. I really advise you to drop all discussions of particular doctrines and explore the one of the church’s teaching authority. You can always find a father or saint who supported error. You can always make scripture conform to your own understanding. That’s why Christ gave us the church as the only true divinely protected interpreter of God’s truths. I suggest you trust God’s guided authorities and his promised guidance over them and not yourself or any one else who teaches contrary to the church.
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rinnie
Guest
Here is where I am not understanding what you were saying Mercy. See we don’t presume that our Lord Jesus never had a desire to sin, we know this.
See I think where the trouble came in is when you read that the Church Fathers said he was tempted in every way as ourselves. but you missed the part EXCEPT WITHOUT sin.
Unless I misunderstood this completely. Then please accept my apology.
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mercytruth
Guest
I fail to see how anything that has divided the primitive church of God that was sanctified by the truth of God’s word can have eternal spiritual value, especially when few understand it.
The Protestants have something to offer, they who value God’s word are pleasing to God. The Catholic church in America probably would not have bible studies today, if it was not for the influence of Bible adherant Protestants. I hate spiritual arrogance and pride. I think I should focus on another sort of denial, by reading St.John of the Cross., at least, this saint of the Catholic church, I can understand.
God’s peace now and forever.
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mercytruth
Guest
Tempted in every way as ourselves, yet without ever sinning is how I read the early church fathers and the aforemention scripture. Being tempted in every way, is not sin. It is giving into the temptation of any, or every sort of sin is what brings one to the act, attitude, or speech of sinning.
Your apologies are accepted, but like I said to Marybeloved, it is time for me to retreat to the reflections and writings of St.John of the Cross. He understood well.
God’s peace to you.
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rinnie
Guest
See Mercy here is something I don’t understand. What do you mean by his physical nature tempted his soul to be otherwise?
This is where I believe we have the big disagreement. If his physical nature tempted his soul to be otherwise he would have venial sin, would he not?
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mercytruth
Guest
For you, Rinnie I will reply from my understanding of holy scriptures. I may be completely wrong.
When Paul says, 'the good that I would, I do not, and the evil that I would not, that I do. Who shall deliver me from this body of death?" He is telling us of the struggle between our physical fallen genetic Adamic nature, and our inner nature created in the image of God.
This tells me that our physical nature is selfish and self-seeking and overpowers the good intentions of our soul. Paul later explains that Jesus Christ condemned sin in the flesh, in order for the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who no longer walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit (of Christ, I presume).
So, no, this would not be a venial sin for Jesus Christ to be tempted by sin, as long as he did not follow through or dwell on such temptations.
Really, I question whether I should continue, I have no authority to explain, and I do not want to be a source of division (eventhough it is unlikely anyone will be persuaded by my convictions, this is strictly for your understanding of where I am coming from).
Now let us go forth in God’s peace.
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rinnie
Guest
If one were to read the entire epitstle to the Hebrews, one will understand (hopefully) of that which is at stake here.
Our Lord Jesus Christ **had to become perfect **through temptation like ours, and through suffering in order to be made our High Priest forever, according to the order of Melchisedek. I will attempt to break down this understanding of the High Priesthood that our Lord Jesus Christ has entered into.
First, the qualifications of a high priest under the law of the Levitical priesthood:
**For every high priest taken from among men, is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins: Who can have compassion on them **that are ignorant and that err: because he himself also is compassed with infirmity. And therefore he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins .Neither doth any man take the honour to himself, but he that is called by God, as Aaron was.(Hebrews 5:1-4).
Now here is the description of the High Priesthood of our Lord.
The compassion the Levitical High Priest had for his own people was because he himself struggled with the same 'infirmities, ’ “weaknesses” toward sin, (and in fact did sin), even as the people of Israel sinned.
Therefore, it was necessary for our Lord Jesus Christ to struggle with the same infirmities or weaknesses as us, in order to have compassion on us, all the while, never sinning. (unlike the Levitical high priest).
This struggle with weaknesses toward sin, and with suffering is what perfected our Lord Jesus Christ in order to be made a high priest forever according to the order of Melchisedek: He would not have been made a high priest forever according to the order of Melchisedek unless he had been perfected through temptation and suffering:
For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever. (Hebrews 7:26-28)
And, In the days of his flesh, Jesus[a] offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.
(Hebrews 5:7-10)
The epistle to the Hebrews clearly explains that our Lord Jesus Christ had to be pefected through temptations like our own, and through sufferings in order to become a high priest forever.
God of God knew obedience. But now he experienced it as Son of God in the flesh.
God was not made perfect in his temptations, Jesus was God when he became flesh. He was made perfect when he was the Son of God made man.
But what this scripture is saying is he was not only God made man, but when his humanity was tested he showed perfection on a human level also. THe suffering part, the physical pain.
Where you and I disagree is I don’t see how Jesus could have been tempted on a human level as we are.
This is what we are pretty much disagreeing on I believe.
Here is why, you seem to believe the Jesus had the human nature that is inclined to sin.
When Adam came into the world he Did NOT have the human nature that was inclined to sin. But by his sin we are inclined to sin. We have a sinful nature.
When we are born before our baptsim we are born into a state of sin. We call this original sin, It is our baptism that wiped that out.
But Jesus was not born into original sin. That is why we cannot agree on the temptations of the Sinless nature of Christ and the sinfull nature of us.
That is why he filled the Priesthood. The order of Melchizek still had a sinful nature. That is why Jesus Surpassed it.
The other Priests could not do it, because they had sin of thier own.
So where we are going to have to disagree is this. Adam and Eve never had a sinful nature either. They were not born with original sin. They had free will to obey God or not to.
Jesus did not have a sinful nature, and he chose to be completely obedient as God made human to show us that he can relate to us in a human way… But there is no way that in the temptations he could be tempted EXACTLY like us, because he did not have the inclination of sin as we do.
If he did he would not be the 2nd Adam and be able to take away the Sin which is original sin that Adam gave us.
To make it more clear God has no sin in him. Ever! Jesus was God making himself Man, while he suffered as Man, on every single level. physical that is, meaning pain, feelings of suffering, but where we differ is the Sin. He could never be inclined to sin as we are. because he had no sinful nature as we do.
On the same note, we as humans cannot say that we are tempted by sin, and not feel inclined to sin. It is in our nature. We can’t help it. We can choose to not react on it, but we cannot help what we feel.
Like lets say you or I look at the HUNK of a Man! Just as a Man can have lust so can we. But when we look at , for one second we cannot deny the sinful thought that comes into our minds. For me its big shoulders on a man, I can’t help it, I can control how I act on it But for a second. God forgive me, I have thoughts
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rinnie
Guest
Mercy sorry I had to take a little out of what you wrote to fit my response.
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Marybeloved
Guest
You really think that telling you the truth about the teaching of the Church is pride and arrogance?
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rinnie
Guest
Oh Mercy please don’t go, And I beg everyone here to be kind, Be Christlike.
Trust me Mercy, there are so many arguments I have had, and came on short. And by that misunderstanding I found the true understanding.
And no one here has authority Sweatheart. We are going by what the Church teaches, or at least what we understand what the Church teaches.
But please don’t feel we are trying to hurt or attack you. At least on my part I am here to try to help you the best I can.
Now back to your question, Here is why I believe it would be venial. Because venial is the thought or inclination as I explained.
See that is the only way Jesus was Perfect and we were not. He never had any inclination to sin ever.
Now think about this, do you know ANYONE, including the Pope that can say they never had a inclination to give in to sin ever?
See what St Paul is saying by condemning sin in the flesh, which means taking it away, by Jesus never having a single sinful though he beat sin completely.
That is why by dying for Our sin, him being perfect in every single way, is our Salvation.
That is why we now have baptism. One baptism for the forgiveness of sin. Thats original sin. Remember no Priest could get rid of it for us. How Jesus was the perfect sacrafice.
Here is more proof Jesus was perfect even before he died, he was forgiving sin before he died. Even before he was tempted.
Back to St Paul, he knew he had sins, St Peter did. We all did. Look at the Pope he goes to confession every day.
By by his death and res. he set us free. Now not only do we have Baptism for original sin, we have confession for actual sins. The ones we do now. In confession he passed on the Power to the Priest to forgive sin in his name.
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rinnie
Guest
I think Mary when we can all come on a little strong at times. And sometimes its taken as an attack then what we mean it to be as a true loving attempt to help gain an understanding of Church teaching.You really think that telling you the truth about the teaching of the Church is pride and arrogance?
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mercytruth
Guest
It is the fact that you brought Protestants into the equation that angered me. They have nothing to do with this discussion, nor my perspective of the Catholic church. I happen to believe that one could benefit from the perspectives and giftings which God has granted to many different individuals from many different Christian denominations. I do not believe that the Catholic church is the sole depository of all revealed truth. There are things that the Catholic church could learn from the Orthodox regarding doctrine. The Catholic church could be edified in knowing how Protestants have reached out to the third countries for centuries, and how there are ministries that support the persecuted underground church in China and Muslim countries.
If there is one thing that really riles me is this constant bickering between faith traditions as to who has the whole truth, or who is more spiritually enlightened.
God have mercy on us.
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Marybeloved
Guest
Whether or not we have much to learn from each other is not really the issue- of course we do! Catholics will be the first to tell you so. But the position that you espouse of private interpretation in contradiction of church teaching is clearly and objectively a protestant position, belief, culture and doctrine. Remember that even with the Apostles, people disagreed and interpreted the truth differently, but it was the Church that had the final word- Acts 15.
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Pythons
Guest
An absolute fact - well said Marybeloved.
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mercytruth
Guest
This will be my last posting on CA, but a few issues need to be addressed.
- I was not giving my own interpretation, I thought I was expressing the understanding of the early church fathers who preceded the Nicene Council and the creeds that developed subsequently. All theology of the Son of God is now interpreted from this development.
- After reading St.John of the Cross, I have come to understand that I may be deceived. There is a stage that one enters into after going through the dark night of the senses, and before entering the dark night of the spirit of which St.John speaks. This is just one quotation applicable:
- You mention the authority of the church as cited in Acts 15. The authority of the primitive church could be trusted because she was ‘one with the Father, and the Son, even as the Father and the Son are one’. She could be trusted because they were being sanctified by the truth, because ‘thy word is the truth’.
- Having been brainwashed, or broken by the U.S. Army, I am very wary of entering into
another psychosis which took me many years to recover. For this reason, I may be susceptible to self-deception because of this innate mistrust of those in any kind of authority.
home.netcom.com/~ncoic/brainwsh.htm
visionandpsychosis.net/Cults.htm
- The manner is which spiritual leaders were chosen in the primitive church has been lost. The Constitutions of the Apostles, Bishop Clement’s letter to the Corinthian church, and Bishop Cyprian of Carthage writings speak of this process.
- So, even if I am deceived and God delivers me from this deception, I do not know how I will deal with my innate distrust of authority. Perhaps, God would allow me to enter into the dark night of the spirit to be purged of such distrust. The interesting thing about St. John of the Cross, is that it is God who induces the psychosis and not man. I quote:
God’s peace as my final farewell.
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Marybeloved
Guest
Mercytruth, you are in my prayers. I don’t know if you’re going through the dark night of St. John, but if you are, then that is a good thing, even though it may feel like the worst. But you should know that during this trial you seem to be describing (The spirit of confusion that God allows to tempt many in this night as a form of purification), the remedy given by the saints- St. John, St. Teresa and others- is obedience…is submission, which is self-renunciation, to authorities. That’s the way through them to the other side, as taught by our holy saints and mystics. I pray that God helps you begin to trust Him- Just remember that submitting to God’s appointed authorities is trusting GOD who appoints them and protects you- It’s never about trusting those weak, fallible men. I wish you well and keep you in prayers.
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rinnie
Guest
Hi Mercy, I hope things work out for you. I think we can all relate to one time or another where people with authority have been in that position and really abused that authority and hurt alot of people.
I for one can say that I am so ashamed of what some of my own Priests have done in the RCC and made life hell for many in our faith. Especailly the good Priests who are indeed true Priests who took the oath of God seriously.
But unfortunately as we are shown the devil can fool so many people in this world. Jesus warned us he is the master of deceit and can wear his own clothes… Look at Judas
The thing I would like to say is this, See when the RCC teaches us scripture, it must go through the Pope and the Biships. Now we have this promise from God, when they teach and preach in His name they cannot lie to us.
Now we have that promise from God. So to put it another way, lets say our Pope teaches us something and says he speaks in the name of God, anotherwards it is through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Now people can say he can lie, No he cannot. Here is why. If someone says the Pope can speak in the name of God and lie, you are saying the Pope can overpower God.
Do you see what I am saying. No one can overpower God. That is why, because of the way the devil can fool us God made his Church how he did.
Now can the Pope lie, and sin on other things. Of course he can. he is human like us, and the devil can take over his soul. if of course he offers it up to the devil.
But even if the Pope himself would be evil, which thank God we have a good one, he could never teach or preach in the name of God and overpower God.
Hope that makes sense to you. Why do I believe that, because God promised us that in that, its in the bible.
So see God never said that anyone of us can not be overpowered or fooled by the devil. Look at St Peter, he told him Peter the devil wants you but I prayed for you to strengthen your brothers.
But see that is why Jesus said You are Peter and to you I give the keys to the kingdom what you bound is bound loose is loose and hades will not prevail. That means the devil will never overpower the Church.
He can overpower people. humans, but not the Church. Hope this helps. cont…
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rinnie
Guest
cont…
But Mercy I hope you stick around. Because you can learn so much about our faith, and help others.
I can see you have a big heart, and are here to help others.
Many times I like you misunderstand what my own Pope is saying. Its easy to do. Especially for me
But hope to see you around, and you are in my prayers my dear, and I am going to light a candle for you this Sunday in Church and pray for you. God Bless!
But Mercy I hope you stick around. Because you can learn so much about our faith, and help others.
I can see you have a big heart, and are here to help others.
Many times I like you misunderstand what my own Pope is saying. Its easy to do. Especially for me
But hope to see you around, and you are in my prayers my dear, and I am going to light a candle for you this Sunday in Church and pray for you. God Bless!
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peace2u2
Guest
God is pure spirit
Jesus is the face of God and shows us who God is and how He acts
The Holy Spirit is our Helper, Advocate, Paraclete, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of Love
Read more: ewtn.com/devotionals/pentecost/pent3.htm#ixzz1u0iwVZCS
Peace 2U
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