I believe Jesus was never a god who became man

[swariffin]

Hi

To err is human.

Thanks

Please tell that to your nice Malaysian Muslim fellow, Paar.

 

[swariffin]

Hi

I think it is not difficult to understand.

Muhammad never wrote or authored Quran. Allah read it to Muhammad through an angel and Muhammad memorised it by heart. OK

Allah’s witnessing as mentioned in Quran to this effect is acceptable to us the Muslims. Allah is All-Seeing and All-Observing, he knew what happened to Mary and Jesus. We have to accept Allah’s lone witnessing in this case.

I elaborate it further.

Mary conceived a child without the touch of a man; this has been mentioned in Quran by lone witnessing of Allah. We all Muslims therefor accept it only on witnessing of Allah, we don’t ask for any further witnessing, as it not required logically.

If we Muslims deny lone witnessing of Allah in the case of Mary, then we would be thinking like the Jews thought; and they held Mary in doubt, you know of.

I think it is now crystal clear to you; however you may keep believing what satisfies you most but with solid reasons, no compulsion.

I love Jesus and Mary

Thanks

What makes it difficult is to determine that whether of not Muhammad was truthful. He never guaranteed his own word by his own life. Instead, he guaranteed his word by other people’s life.

 

[swariffin]

i find it rather curious that these statements (either written like this, or variations somewhat, but more or less the same meaning) was found in almost every of his posts, and his continuous disregard to christians’ perspective of interpretation (simply dismissing it without much thought) simply inteprets that the poster is telling everyone time and time again,

He is the one that “keeps believing…and no compulsion” to hear what the rest of the world says.

if he seriously does not mind what others believe, why did he come up to this thread and kept on repeat his views, again and again…when it was clearly not accepted. shouldn’t he leave it as it is in that case, if he is not here to discuss, as was evident in his postings, more like trying to “teach”.

(I was reading every entry and was entertained…)

He believes that after throwing 1.000 unsupported childish claims, he can get one convert.

 

[ronyodish]

Rony, the picture you have posted is not that of Jesus. It is some representation of a scene. So it could be called fiction. There is some person on the cross whose hands are just tied up, no iron rod put through the palm or the through the wrist.

Planten,

The picture is from the Passion of the Christ movie, and the actor is acting out the crucifixion of Jesus. The acting is not based on a fictional or mythological story, but on the basics of the Scriptural accounts of Jesus’ crucifixion.

It appears that some one has acted or enacted the scene. Why it was necessary to do that? Was it to follow in the footsteps of Jesus? Surely not. The cross was not the only part of Jesus life. There were many other things that Jesus did, the way he lived, the way he talked, the way he preached, The way he ate things.

It was acted because Christianity uses all the senses to convey the message of Jesus and His Gospel. Pictures serve as visual aids to veneration. We don’t just hear the word of God, we also see it, smell it, taste it, and touch it. We receive it with our intellect, our will, and our body.

Jesus came for the literate and the illiterate. His message can be conveyed in pictures, and in acting, to help those people who are more visually oriented to learn more easily His message of love and redemption.

The sufferings of His passion, death on the cross, resurrection from the dead, and ascension into heaven, is the climax of God’s love for humanity in the Person of Christ. And so, it is not only the cross that is important, but the cross is a climactic event. All the events of Christ’s life are important (preaching, miracle working, etc.), and they all lead to the climax.

Why not that one in the picture on the cross chose to live like Jesus lived. Was that man circumsized like Jesus? Did he pray like Jesus? Did he call the father like Jesus? Did he pray to the Lord like Jesus used to do?

We are called to live like Jesus, because Jesus tells us: “Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls” (Matt. 11:29). The actor in that movie and all of us are called to live this life of holiness. We can not, however, live it, unless the Father empowers us with the Holy Spirit so that we may be conformed into the image of His Son.

The exterior circumcision of the flesh (foreskin) in the Old Covenant has been fulfilled with the interior circumcision of the heart in the New Covenant. This was prophesied in the Old Covenant: “And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live” (Deut. 30:6).

It was fully fulfilled in the New Covenant when Jesus explained to the Jews and to all of us the following:

"And he said to him, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.’ " (Matt. 22:37-40).

St. Paul further explains:

“real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal” (Rom. 2:29)
“For we are the true circumcision, who worship God in spirit, and glory in Christ Jesus, and put no confidence in the flesh” (Phil 3:3)
“In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ” (Col 2:11)

Jesus was circumcised in the flesh to fulfill the law of Moses, and having fulfilled it, we, His followers, who have received the Holy Spirit are no longer under the law of Moses, but under grace, which is called the law of Christ. We are circumcised in our hearts to fulfill in our lives the law of Christ, the life of grace, brought about “in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5).

All of us, including that actor in the movie, are called to pray to the Father, like the Lord Jesus prayed to the Father. The Lord Jesus taught us the new prayer, the Lord’s prayer, as follows:

“Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil” (Matt. 6:9-13).

 

[ronyodish]

Continued…

There are so many questions which need to be answered just by the look at that photo. And we do not have any answer to those questions. I cannot ask the person in the photo. But I can ask you all those questions because you seem to have been much (affected) attached to the cruel scene.

You can ask any questions you like. Christians are called to be always prepared to make a defense or answer any one who calls us to give a reason for the hope that is in us, and yet we must give these answers with gentleness and reverence.

I am quite sincere in asking all these things. We believe it was very bad that was done with the man of God (Jesus) and those who did it, they paid high price too. So that should be enough.

What was done to our Lord Jesus, by putting him to death, was the evil choices exercised by the free will of men, but the Father brought the greatest of good out of this greatest of evil. On the third day, the Lord Jesus resurrected from the dead, giving hope to all of us that one day our bodies will likewise resurrect from the dead. This is the plan of God, bringing life out of death, so that all of us who believe and share in the message and life of Christ will be resurrected on the last day to be with our God forever, in bodily form, and not just in soul.

“For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (1 Cor. 1:18).

God bless,

Rony

 

[swariffin]

**One man - One woman is the best way. But it should not be extremely strict because conditions vary. Conditions demand sometime that a man may have to marry more than one.

The only other solution would be to divorce the first wife which is also not good. The church is against the divorce too. But in mathew ch.19 it is allowed under special circumstances. There is a case in which a divorce may be necessary.

**

The circumstances are elaborated nicely in Deuteronomy 18:6-20. That is called Fornication. If a man and a woman married under the condition of fornication, that marriage is unlawful. Thus, no marriage at all. Thus, if separated, it is not a divorce.

Look at the original language it is written (Mat 19:9):

Lego de humin hoti hos an apoluse ten gunaika autou(me epi porneia) kai gamese allen moichatai!"

The word “Porneia” in Greek means Fornication.

You may be correct that under a certain condition, a man having more than one wife was tolerable, as it happened in the OT. But, such condition CANNOT LAST FOREVER. You must come back to the original intention of God about marriage as written in Mat 19:5-6. So, it WAS OK for a man having more than 1 wife in the OT, and CERTAINLY NOT OK for a man having more than 1 wife TODAY.

 

[kellie]

Hi

I think it is not difficult to understand.

Muhammad never wrote or authored Quran. Allah read it to Muhammad through an angel and Muhammad memorised it by heart. OK

paarsurrey,

We believe that God IS the Holy Spirit and God IS Jesus, all 3 are the same

We believe that the Holy Spirit guided the writers of the Gospels to accurately record the teachings of Jesus without any error

We believe that the Council that put the Bible together, the Books that we now know are the Bible, were guided by the Holy Spirit(God) so they chose the correct Books

We believe we know the Truth

This all seems to be something you aren’t quite grasping

You seem to argue your point with us, but with the wrong idea of what we consider Christianity to be

You mention many times in your posts that men are not supposed to be perfect, that men are supposed to err

How then could muhammed hear the Koran, and memorise it by heart, until he could later get it all down in writing?

If he could do this, and if u believe he could do this, then why is it so improbable as u say it is, for the Gospel writers to have not been able to do it?

please please please start understanding Catholicism, and history before you start telling us what is wrong with it

 

[Geocacher]

I have to admit that I do have a testimony of Jesus Christ as Lord, but still having trouble with which faith to believe in

All I know is that you would have to prayerfully read the NT to get a testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[doughnut]

He believes that after throwing 1.000 unsupported childish claims, he can get one convert.

Perhaps it might work, if the reader chose only to read what he wrote (after awhile it just appeared to be repetition) and ignored what the rest of the posters had written.

 

[planten]

paarsurrey,

We believe that God IS the Holy Spirit and God IS Jesus, all 3 are the same

We believe that the Holy Spirit guided the writers of the Gospels to accurately record the teachings of Jesus without any error

We believe that the Council that put the Bible together, the Books that we now know are the Bible, were guided by the Holy Spirit(God) so they chose the correct Books

We believe we know the Truth

**What you have written is correct. You believe this. You believe that. And you want to believe this. You do not want to believe that. This is your religion. I do not want to disturb you in your beliefs. But I have to show you, respectfully, what you are really doing. You are following your own desires. Please do not mind. You have told it all yourself, above. Thank you. **.

This all seems to be something you aren’t quite grasping

You seem to argue your point with us, but with the wrong idea of what we consider Christianity to be

This is also true and correct. May be we do not understand your way of christianity. But we are sincere in all our questions / objections. We are not cooking anything up to disturb you. There are real problems with your beliefs. You just believed all things without any reasons and rejected all other things without any reasons. ..

You mention many times in your posts that men are not supposed to be perfect, that men are supposed to err

How then could muhammed hear the Koran, and memorise it by heart, until he could later get it all down in writing?

If he could do this, and if u believe he could do this, then why is it so improbable as u say it is, for the Gospel writers to have not been able to do it?

please please please start understanding Catholicism, and history before you start telling us what is wrong with it

To err is human. Forgiveness is divine. But errors can be corrected. Sins can be forgiven. It is no use saying that only one man in the world did not err.

 

[R_not]

I have to admit that I do have a testimony of Jesus Christ as Lord, but still having trouble with which faith to believe in

All I know is that you would have to prayerfully read the NT to get a testimony of Jesus Christ.

I have to agree with you. Using the koran to discuss Jesus doesn’t make sense to me.

No muslim has proven the Bible was corrupted and that is because they cannot do so. This makes the koran not even a reliable source of anything that refers to the Bible.

If one wants to read about Jesus - one would read from the New Testament. It would be like reading the ‘Da Vinci Code’ to get His life from. Both are from people who are trying to discredit Jesus.

 

[sambos671]

Also Islam should also be considered in the same catagory as the gnostics. Maybe the most successful ones.

 

[zigli]

You need to post more to back up your assertions.

If you want to say the Bible is corrupted, then you need to prove it. Please don’t use the koran to prove it since that is based on an illiterate pagan.

Otherwise, just stating your belief isn’t too much to go on. Why do you think that?

Those others who wrote about Him were witnesses to Jesus’ miracles and His teachings. He appeared to them after He Resurrected. St. Paul was visited by Him so he would spread the Word to others who were not Jewish. mohammed had no miracle, no one saw him when he saw some angel and even blamed a little puppy when the angel didn’t appear before others. Like an Angel of the Lord would be frightened over one of His creatures! A little puppy.

And the ironic thing about all of this is that when we do quote surahs and hadiths to muslims - they squirm since so many of them are so violent, and filled with mohammed’s sexual escapades with wives and slaves (women and children).

And you are notorious for trying to rewrite the koran. There are 5 accepted translations and your not included among them.

• Pickthall
• Yusuf Ali
• alhilali Khan
• Shakir
  and I forget the last one.

 

[Bill_Pick]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4745582&postcount=42
A gentle correction on what is necessary to be a Christian

Hi

The above does not represent views of all the non-Catholics. I love Jesus and his true teachings but I don’t believe that Jesus was ever a god who became man. Jesus had no explicit claim to it except some obscure statements narrated by others who misunderstood him. This is my sincere opinion, however, no disrespect is intended to anybody’s faith or creed.

I love Jesus and Krishna

Thanks

parrusurry, bill pick here did you in one of your post offer to get me a new pc because my key board was not working…believe this we can make a deal…smile, have a good weekend

 

[zigli]

Brothers:

Before we can criticise others, we have to look at our inner self and see if the critics we are aiming at others apply to us. That said, I will simply suggest moderation and respect for one another beliefs. If you don’t believe that Jesus is God, then please try to find out through the Bible and the Scriptures, I am confident that you will be enlighted (if you truely want to know). It is true that those who communicated the teachings of Jesus were his witnesses and they unequivocably confirmed that He is Lord, the Son of the Almighty. If you think that His witnesses have misinterpreted his teachings then you are not consistent with yourself when you say you love Jesus and his teachings as those teachings were brought to us by the same people you are accusing of misinterpreting. Please, continue to read the Bible and or your Quran if you prefer and ask God in your prayer to show you the true…Be blessed

 

[WarriorAngel]

One man - One woman is the best way. But it should not be extremely strict because conditions vary. Conditions demand sometime that a man may have to marry more than one.

The only other solution would be to divorce the first wife which is also not good. The church is against the divorce too. But in mathew ch.19 it is allowed under special circumstances. There is a case in which a divorce may be necessary.

Would the christians (Catholics) please admit that there is an exception to the rule of “No divorce”??

Jesus said that there was one reason to divorce and wthat would be adultery.

Ya know - having another woman… [or man] who are NOT your spouse.

There is never a condition that calls for more wives.
…or husbands.

As Jesus inferred to the woman saying she had 7 husbands [by the well] and then told her to go and sin no more.

She was fornicating with several men, and He didnt want her to sin no more and she converted.

Muhammad would have had her stoned.

Big difference.

Jesus taught peace and love…for all.

 

[kellie]

**What you have written is correct. You believe this. You believe that. And you want to believe this. You do not want to believe that. This is your religion. I do not want to disturb you in your beliefs. But I have to show you, respectfully, what you are really doing. You are following your own desires. Please do not mind. You have told it all yourself, above. Thank you. **.

This is also true and correct. May be we do not understand your way of christianity. But we are sincere in all our questions / objections. We are not cooking anything up to disturb you. There are real problems with your beliefs. You just believed all things without any reasons and rejected all other things without any reasons. ..

To err is human. Forgiveness is divine. But errors can be corrected. Sins can be forgiven. It is no use saying that only one man in the world did not err.

paarsurrey, u didnt actually answer anything i just said in my post

is it true u believe all men err ??
if so, how could Mohammed memorise the whole Koran and write it down much later ??

yes, Catholicism is my religion, and what i stated is what Catholics believe

my point is, u argue with us, using the wrong beliefs, making statements about Catholicism that are so wrong

please please please try to understand our posts before replying

and please answer specific questions as i have asked above

 

[rob179ny]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4745582&postcount=42
A gentle correction on what is necessary to be a Christian

Hi

The above does not represent views of all the non-Catholics. I love Jesus and his true teachings but I don’t believe that Jesus was ever a god who became man. Jesus had no explicit claim to it except some obscure statements narrated by others who misunderstood him. This is my sincere opinion, however, no disrespect is intended to anybody’s faith or creed.

I love Jesus and Krishna

Thanks

First of all how do you know the meaning of his true teachings without being Catholic. The Catholic church was setup by GOD with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in giving us the understanding of his true teaching.

Since this is the case who is this Jesus that you love? I know several people named Jesus, so which Jesus do you know that you love so much. I might know him… Maybe we can hang out sometime.

Also who had the authority to say what Jesus teaching is and the power to interpret it without error. Please enlighten us as you have before…

Also please do not say the Koran because what I believe is that its just a book, you know like Harry Potter.

Also what percentage of Islam is Amadiyya. Because I’m trying to undertsand how credible are the things that you say in relation to Islam…

By the way, The Jesus I know loves you too.

God Bless

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4745582&postcount=42
A gentle correction on what is necessary to be a Christian

Hi

The above does not represent views of all the non-Catholics. I love Jesus and his true teachings but I don’t believe that Jesus was ever a god who became man. Jesus had no explicit claim to it except some obscure statements narrated by others who misunderstood him. This is my sincere opinion, however, no disrespect is intended to anybody’s faith or creed.

Gabriel of 12;
Jesus is the only man who was witnessed to Heal the sick, give sight to the blind, heal the lepers, raise the dead by speaking his “Word”, forgive sins, even the wind and the storm obey his command, not to mention Jesus walked on “Water”, rebuked demons and excorcised demons from humans, Jesus was crucified, died and was buried after the third day many witnessed his resurrection from the dead and his ascension into heaven.

What is interesting here, since then the followers of Jesus went to their deaths proclaiming this “Truth” by believing Jesus was fully human and fully divine from all walks of life under torture, and martyrdom. What fool would go to his death willingly if Jesus was not God incarnate? The prophets spoke well of those who would deny God even though God himself would take life, bury it, and raise it again.

Peace

 

[planten]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4745582&postcount=42

A gentle correction on what is necessary to be a Christian

Hi

The above does not represent views of all the non-Catholics. I love Jesus and his true teachings but I don’t believe that Jesus was ever a god who became man. Jesus had no explicit claim to it except some obscure statements narrated by others who misunderstood him. This is my sincere opinion, however, no disrespect is intended to anybody’s faith or creed.

Gabriel of 12;
Jesus is the only man who was witnessed to Heal the sick, give sight to the blind, heal the lepers, raise the dead by speaking his “Word”, forgive sins, even the wind and the storm obey his command, not to mention Jesus walked on “Water”, rebuked demons and excorcised demons from humans, Jesus was crucified, died and was buried after the third day many witnessed his resurrection from the dead and his ascension into heaven.

What is interesting here, since then the followers of Jesus went to their deaths proclaiming this “Truth” by believing Jesus was fully human and fully divine from all walks of life under torture, and martyrdom. What fool would go to his death willingly if Jesus was not God incarnate? The prophets spoke well of those who would deny God even though God himself would take life, bury it, and raise it again.

Peace

**This post and the previous from Rob, it is alright to believe that Jesus is God. There is no bar on any belief. After all the idol worshippers also have a belief with out foundation. They just believe. So do the christians.

The religion and idea of God did not start with Jesus. One has to see the previous scripture too. God had been revealing himself to many other nations since very long time. The idea of a man God is not fit for belief.

Jesus did many miracles. These are mentioned in the Quran too. But please do not mix the real things with metaphorics and parables. There are many symbolic things that church has taken as real, such as son of God and God.

As long as Jesus was around, he was the beloved of God and could be said to be a beloved son of God (metaphorically). He could be a God on earth too (Symbolically). The only one representing God here. But that was all. Please do not take those words as real.

Miracles have taken place in the time of every prophet of God. Even in the time of Noah a.s when the people were denying the truth and abusing Noah, God had shown the greatest miracle of the Ark and drowned all the rascals.

Same was in the time of Joseph son of Jacob, in the time of Moses too. How Moses was saved from the water soon after birth, and how he crossed the sea safely with his people?. See? The miracles of the Hindus are much greater in their power (strength).

The church teachings are false such as the original sin, all people, all prophets are sinful except Jesus. There is no one a God except Jesus.

Nobody would believe those things. It would be like being a pagan. Please think over and ask all such things from the Jews too. They are the predecessors of the christians. Do they have such beliefs? never.**