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MyPhilomena
Guest
Ecclesiasticus states in 8:3
For gold and silver hath destroyed many, and hath reached even to the heart of kings, and perverted them.
not what you quoted for it.
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For gold and silver hath destroyed many, and hath reached even to the heart of kings, and perverted them.
not what you quoted for it.
T
tabcom
Guest
**Thank you for verifying my scriptual citations.
I should have stated Job 42:11:
I should have stated Job 42:11:
Then all his brethren and his sisters came to him, and all his former acquaintances, and they dined with him in his house. They condoled with him and comforted him for all the evil which the LORD had brought upon him; and each one gave him a piece of money and a gold ring.**
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MyPhilomena
Guest
go back to the previous post i wrote about the account in Job 1.again, your missing the point.what is it talking about? *why * did God allow this to happen? Why?
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corvidae
Guest
But were you not just saying earlier that Satan brought the evil upon Job to test him?? So now God and Satan are the same?
I have always been taught and still do believe after much deliberation that God allows evil to take place, as He allowed Job to be tested, but that does not mean that God created it or that God causes it. If I stand by and let someone be shot when I could have stopped it, did I cause the shooting?
I will get back to you on the Scripture verses because it seems you are badly misquoting things.
A lone Raven
p.s. After looking up many of your quotes, I think you are simply grasping at straws and throwing random verses and chapters with them in hopes that we ignorant Catholics will not look them up. In my translation, Isaiah says I make well being and create woe. Woe is not the same as evil. Evil is the lack of good, woe is sadness.
I have always been taught and still do believe after much deliberation that God allows evil to take place, as He allowed Job to be tested, but that does not mean that God created it or that God causes it. If I stand by and let someone be shot when I could have stopped it, did I cause the shooting?
I will get back to you on the Scripture verses because it seems you are badly misquoting things.
A lone Raven
p.s. After looking up many of your quotes, I think you are simply grasping at straws and throwing random verses and chapters with them in hopes that we ignorant Catholics will not look them up. In my translation, Isaiah says I make well being and create woe. Woe is not the same as evil. Evil is the lack of good, woe is sadness.
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Malcolm_McLean
Guest
This is where amateurs armed with a Bible and good intentions often become unstuck.
For instnace you say “God created the serpent”. Now the redactor of Genesis almost certainly believed that the serpent was one of the creatures God had made. However why it talks is left an open question.
However there may have been an earlier version of the story in which God fights a dragon - Tiamat - to create the world. So the serpent would not be a creature, but part of the formless chaos (tehom vovoah).
The writer of the Revelation indeed identifies the serpent with Satan, but this writing comes almost 800 years after the final redaction of Genesis. You are so used to buying Bibles bound in one volume, that you seem unaware of what exactly you are saying. Are you claiming that the writer of Revelation had a supernatural understanding of the intention of the Geneis redactor? Of the original author of Genesis? Are you caliming that he revealed an occult meaning intended by God from the beginning?
You pluck a sentence from Amos to show that God creates evil, yet in the priestly account of the creation we have the constant refrain “and it was good”. The exception is when God creates man, when that phrase is missing, because, in Jewish tradition, man can choose whether to be good or not.
The Job story is, again, much later than Genesis, and reflects an established cosmolgy in which God and good and bad angels inhabit the heavens, and have genetlemanly bets. However it doesn’t tell us the Jewish attitude to this cosmology, any more the “The Screwtape Letters” tells us CS Lewises real beliefs about devils.
Finally, the New Testament says that the serpent deceived Eve, as does the old. However the actual story is more powerful - the whole point of the story is that the serpent is telling the truth. “And the eyes of both of them were opened …”
Your simple algebra is treating several books by several authors saying things in complex ways as one book with a single surface message. Then you select quotations to build up an argument about “what the Bible says”. Your exegitical method is very lacking, maybe no so bad as to totally distort the text, but not accpetable in any academic theological environment.
Finally you go one step further and draw a conclusion - predestination - at variance with the majority of Christian tradition. That’s the danger of Bible based churches.
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MyPhilomena
Guest
yes, He did allow Job to be tested, but the point he cannot grasp is why? Why did God allow Job to be tested? What was satan trying to say to God? why was he saying it?
He also states that God ordered the devil to seduce Eve, which is not true, and there is to my knowledge, no scriptural evidence to back that up. He also has not answered the question as to why satan used the serpent to deceive Eve.
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tabcom
Guest
**
I am still awaiting a reply to post #13 before proceeding onto another issue.**
C
corvidae
Guest
I do understand philomena,
I was pointing out that the OP was equating God with Satan in what he was saying. In addition, I do not believe you will find God sending Satan to test Job, but rather, allowing Satan to test Job, not so God could see Job’s faithfullness, but so Satan could.
I believe that the OP is having a problem with allowing evil to exist vs. causing evil.
A lone Raven
I was pointing out that the OP was equating God with Satan in what he was saying. In addition, I do not believe you will find God sending Satan to test Job, but rather, allowing Satan to test Job, not so God could see Job’s faithfullness, but so Satan could.
I believe that the OP is having a problem with allowing evil to exist vs. causing evil.
A lone Raven
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Malcolm_McLean
Guest
I replied to post 13.
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MyPhilomena
Guest
I have answered each one of your questions. you need to go back over the whole post and read it.
Take a look at what Jesus said about the devil in John 8:44
“He was a murderer from the beginning: and he stood not in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is liar, and the father thereof.”
God created all types of wild life, and even the snake. The devil used the snake to deceive Eve. He appeared in the guise of a snake did he not?
the serpent is the name refered to him because he used the serpent so he is likened as a serpent.
God allowed satan to test job, and why did he do that?
the devil deceived Eve by using the guise of a serpent. Does not the bible state that satan transforms himself into an angel of light to deceive? do you not think he is perfectly capable of using the guise of a snake to deceive her?
you misinterpret what the Scriptures say. i have provided much scripture, go back and look at the posts.
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MyPhilomena
Guest
yes, we understand but he is not grasping what it means. satan said to God basically that since job was given all these goods that he must be serving God in vain, and that perhaps if God allowed the devil to test job, that perhaps if job suffered alot, then he would curse God and die, and that did not happen. job remained faithul, thus proving that man can serve God without
ulterior motives.
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tabcom
Guest
**Let me clarify this one point. No, God is not Satan. God created Satan.
**
**
Job 1:12 - Then the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that Job has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.
**
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tabcom
Guest
YES! That is exactly my point, thank you!
Satan could not do anything to Job without God’s approval.
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MyPhilomena
Guest
Again, wrong. God did not create satan. before the devil became satan he was an angel named lucifer. he became envious of God. he made himself who he is through his own fault. God did not create satan, and to imply that He did is incorrect and wrong.
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MyPhilomena
Guest
but your missing the point still! WHY did God allow the devil to test job? why? i can’t believe your still not getting the point. any how my friend, have a good day. God bless you. one more point, just because God allowed the devil to test job, does not mean He created evil or the devil.YES! That is exactly my point, thank you!
Satan could not do anything to Job without God’s approval.
MP
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tabcom
Guest
Please forgive me for being what some may call an amateur. Could you please reply to this statement you made earlier? Specifically, where in the bible does it state that satan existed without being created by God?
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MyPhilomena
Guest
oh , i never said you were an amatuer
i’ll be glad to point it out to you here it is:Ezekiel 28:12 (KJV) angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/lucifer.html
“Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.”
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.”
This is not an earthly king, as the word “cherub” is only used in references to angels.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
0 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee
continued…
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MyPhilomena
Guest
Isaiah 14:12 from: angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/lucifer.html
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, one third of all the angels were cast out with him. (Rev.12:4,9)
Lucifer became Satan, and the fallen angels became Demons.
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, one third of all the angels were cast out with him. (Rev.12:4,9)
Lucifer became Satan, and the fallen angels became Demons.
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tabcom
Guest
**
Yes, my belief in predestination is in opositiion to tradition. I have a great distrust of tradition because it is often changed to suit the needs of those that are in power.
On the other hand, the God of the Bible does not change (Mal 3:6).
Romans 8:29 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.
A definition is in order . . .
Predestinate is the Greek word Pro’orizo. Pro’orizo means to prebound or predetermine boundary lines in advance. Pro’orizo is a construction of the prefix pro (our prefix “pre”, meaning before) and the Greek word ‘Orizo – to bound or to mark out a boundary, to appoint, decree, specify, declare, determine, limit, ordain
The small mark ‘ before the word ‘Orizo is called a diacritical mark. It has an “h” sound. The word ‘orizo is written “Horizo” and pronounced, “Horidzo”( the “z” is pronounced “dz” in the Greek). This word looks similar to our word “Horizon”. That is because it is exactly our word horizon.
The horizon was a very familiar boundary line to Jewish mind. It was the division or the boundary of light (day) and darkness (night).
Jesus said, “Ye are the light of the world.” (Matt. 5:14). Light is equated with Truth throughout scripture.
Paul said, “Ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord, walk as children of light. – have no fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness” (Eph. 5:8,11).
Again, Paul said, “Be ye not unequally yoked with unbelievers – what communion hath light with darkness?” (II Cor. 6:14).
Unbelievers are equated as living in darkness, therefore believers are equated with light – light is always equivalent to Truth.
We are commanded to walk in the light.
**
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
According to Catholic theology, this is called “Divine concurrence or concursus” (Fr. John Hardon, God the Author of Nature and the Supernatural, Part one, Thesis II).YES! That is exactly my point, thank you!
Satan could not do anything to Job without God’s approval.
"***This co-operation of the Causa Prima (God) with the ****Causae Secundae (creation) is known as “**Concursus Divinus.” ****The Divine co-operation in the Natural Order is called “Concursus Generalis or Naturalis,” to distinguish it from the special supernatural intervention of God through grace in rational creatures… ***The intrinsic reason for the necessity of the Divine co-operation lies in the entire dependence of all created being on God. As the activity of the creature has a real being which is distinct from the power from which it flows, so this “being of activity” must be caused by God.… (Ott, L., *Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, *88)
***“God co-operates immediately in ***every act of his creatures” (Ott, 88).
God “by an internal power impels to motion and action whatever moves and acts” (Roman Catechism, Article I).
“God Himself, or the Divine nature, is in immediate contact with, or immanent in, every creature– conserving it in being and enabling it to act” (Catholic Encyclopedia - Nature and Attributes of God).
"God wills physical evil, natural evil as well as punitive evil, per accidens, that is, as a means to a higher end of the physical order (for example, for the acquisition of a higher life), or of the moral order (for example, for punishment or for moral enlightenment). Ecclus. 11, 14: “Good things and evil, life and death, poverty and riches are from God.” …
Moral evil, that is, sin, which according to its nature is a revolt against God, is willed by God neither per se nor per accidens, that is, neither as and end nor as a means to an end." (Ott, 46)
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