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choliks
Guest
Great post. I can relate to this one definitely.
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odile53
Guest
If anyone wants an example of their spiritual charism, a really simple (notice the word “simple,” not “easy!”) way to try this is to pray the Examen. It is somewhat like an examination of conscience, but with a view toward seeing oneself through the viewpoint of God. It is a daily review of the day’s events and one’s thoughts, words, and deeds and how they advanced one in one’s relationship with Jesus, or moved one in the opposite direction. It is always to be done with gratitude for graces received and a firm purpose of doing better tomorrow, but doing better not for one’s own self-aggrandizement, but for the greater glory of God.
There’s a structure, but this is pretty individualized prayer that requires time, thought, self-examination, and a willingness to reach out beyond the rote and routine. When you get this individualized, there is always a danger of veering off in another direction, which is why St. Ignatius gave rules for the discernment of spirits. That doesn’t refer to occultist practices, it refers to determining if a thought or an impulse of the soul indeed comes from God, or from elsewhere (including our own wishful thinking.)
You can check out how to do the Examen on any of a large number of Ignatian websites. Creighton University is one of the really good ones. Oh, yes, believe me, that if you start practicing their spiritual charism, under direction (at least at first,) you can be sure to be challenged just as much as taking a course from one of them, if not more!
It’s an unique spirituality, definitely not for everyone.
There’s a structure, but this is pretty individualized prayer that requires time, thought, self-examination, and a willingness to reach out beyond the rote and routine. When you get this individualized, there is always a danger of veering off in another direction, which is why St. Ignatius gave rules for the discernment of spirits. That doesn’t refer to occultist practices, it refers to determining if a thought or an impulse of the soul indeed comes from God, or from elsewhere (including our own wishful thinking.)
You can check out how to do the Examen on any of a large number of Ignatian websites. Creighton University is one of the really good ones. Oh, yes, believe me, that if you start practicing their spiritual charism, under direction (at least at first,) you can be sure to be challenged just as much as taking a course from one of them, if not more!
It’s an unique spirituality, definitely not for everyone.
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
Great advice!!!
Learning and practicing the Examen was the most challenging thing I have ever done in my spiritual life, and something I have received much grace from.
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Nom_the_Wise
Guest
Woo hoo! Go Jesuits Go! :extrahappy: They are orthodox!
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JRRTFAN
Guest
He may have been but he founded the Society of Jesus.Wasn’t St. Ignatius of Loyola a member of the Secular Franciscans?
The Society of Jesus (Latin: Societas Iesu, S.J., SJ, or SI) is a Catholic male religious order that follows the teachings of the Catholic Church. The members are called Jesuits, and are also known colloquially as “God’s Marines”[2] and as “The Company,” these being references to founder Ignatius of Loyola’s military background and members’ willingness to accept orders anywhere in the world and live in extreme conditions. The Society is engaged in evangelization and apostolic ministry in 112 nations on six continents. The Society’s founding principles are contained in the document Formula of the Institute, written by Ignatius of Loyola. Jesuits are known for their work in education (founding schools, colleges, universities and seminaries), intellectual research, and cultural pursuits, and for their missionary efforts. Jesuits also give retreats, minister in hospitals and parishes, and promote social justice and ecumenical dialogue
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JRRTFAN
Guest
Some are.
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jwinch2
Guest
The overwhelming majority are.
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Nom_the_Wise
Guest
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=581407
Technically, they *all *are. Please note the zippedy-do-daa overt positivity in my post (I’ve been chastised on here for the very same criticism
JRRTFAN! cool
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JRRTFAN
Guest
I’m going to say that I don’t know the overwhelming majority, I do know that America magazine which is a magazine of the U S Jesuits was forced to resign by the Pope and I don’t think it would have gotten to that point if “the overwhelming majority” didn’t approve of what he (Reese) was doing.
nationalcatholicreporter.org/update/bn050605.htm
I also think Joseph Fessio, SJ ran afoul of the Society by being a little too orthodox and got demoted to an assistant chaplain at a hospital. Joseph Fessio! The guy who founded Ignatius Press - are you kidding me? The Ph D under Ratzinger Fessio - yes that Fessio.
ncregister.com/site/article/father_fessio_barred_at_san_francisco_college/
Now, interestingly, we have one Josef Cardinal Ratzinger elected the Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church in April 2005 and guess who gets sprung from Jesuit no man’s land. None other that his student Joseh Fessio, SJ, PhD.
So I don’t buy the overwhelming majority argument. Now bear in mind I am not saying they are bad guys and they are certainly rigorous scholars whom I admire, but a lot of them lean left of center theologically and politically the Society has had to be supressed on a couple of ocasions, once by JP II I believe…
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Nom_the_Wise
Guest
Sure, they have been disciplined, but again, I put a link to the “sticky thread” above because though they lean “left of center” (not sure I’d call it a *lean *as much as a “double over backwards” at times), **as far as talking about them on CAF, they remain “orthodox.” **
Just trying to help a brother Tolkien fan out. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=581407 (Check the sticky–don’t get “banned.” Good links, by the way).
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jwinch2
Guest
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=566343&highlight=faithful+jesuit
Its probably a good idea to read this and a few other threads on the subject as we are going over old ground a bit.
Its probably a good idea to read this and a few other threads on the subject as we are going over old ground a bit.
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jwinch2
Guest
This thread is very good on the subject also: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=583129
A very good post on the subject from another thread follows:
While it is true that they have had many problems, it is also true that part of their problem is that they are an exception to almost every law that governs religious life.
In the end, their charism is unity in diversity. They remain a brotherhood of very different men with very different missions. They have serve the Church well. In fact the number three man in the Catholic Church is a Jesuit. He’s the second in command at the Sacred Congregation for the Faith and the man whom Cardinal Levada put at the head of the dialogue with the SSPX. He is considered one of the best theologians and most faithful priests in the Church today. He’s a very humble man. Pope Benedict likes them and has appointed many of them to head different departments in the Vatican. My guess is that he admires their intelligence. What’s there not to admire? They are brilliant men. They only accept the cream of the crop into their order.
- Ignatius founded them as a society, not as an order. The pope elevated them to the status of an order so that he could grant them the privilege of making solemn vows. Only orders can make solemn vows. All other religious communities make simple vows. They’re not the same, do not convey the same graces, hold the same place in the heart of the Church, have the same rights and duties. Solemn vows are one rung up.
- Here they were, an order, but one slight problem. They did not have a rule of life. Ignatius was not allowed to write a rule of life for them. The last rule of life that the Catholic Church approved was the third Franciscan Rule in 1223. After that, the Church said, “No more religious rules. Either use an existing rule or don’t use one at all.”
- Ignatius did not like any of the rules in existence: Augustine, Albert, Basil, Francis, Benedict, or John de Matha. They were too structured. He wanted his men to be free from community life, free from common prayer, free from common mass, free to own property, free to travel anywhere without boundaries, and free to govern themselves instead of depending on a superior.
- Ignatius did not want to give them a constitution either. A constitution would give them parameters, but would also restrict them in some ways. Basically, constitutions say: “Do this and don’t do that.” Ignatius wanted each Jesuit to listen to the voice of the Spirit. He walked his men through the Exercise, which they would continue to use to discern from then until today.
- The Church wanted missionaries. This was not Ignatius dream. His dream was to reform the clergy. But he had made a vow to go where the pope sent him. Well, the pope kept Ignatius in Rome, but asked him to send his sons around the world.
- Most of the time, they went alone. Unlike friars who go in twos, the Jesuits do not have such a custom. Ignatius never adopted it. Even when they live in the same house, each Jesuit prays, eats, works, plays and does whatever he does, on his schedule, though they try to spend some time together. Everyone needs fraternity of some kind.
- They were encouraged, by the Vatican,to push the envelop in theological debate. The hope was to open the minds of their students by helping them understand the other side of the argument. It wasn’t to turn them heretic ,but help them see the mistakes of the heretics.
- Finally, the Church did not then and does not now, demand that the Society of Jesus live a common charism. Ignatius made it quite clear to the Church, that the charism of the Society was to do all things, for the glory and honor of God. By all things,he meant that they would not limit themselves in their apostolic work or in the way that they live their daily lives. One Jesuit house can be radically different from another Jesuit house.
It’s really important to know what the charism of an order is supposed to be, from the inside, before we pass judgment on it. Reading a biography of a founder or a few writings by him, does give us the complete picture. Reading the writings and memoirs of the first generation tells us a great deal. These men, like the Apostles are the ones who hand down the tradition to the next generation. They are the ones who can faithfully interpret the mind of the founder, because they were with him. That’s something that I learned in Rome while studying Spiritual Theology. Never depend on the life story of the founder alone or only on his writings. God back and see if the first generation interprets these events and writings the way that you’re interpreting them. They know what the founder meant. He explained himself to them. You and I cannot have an Q & A with Ignatius of Loyola, but these guys did.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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passer_by
Guest
But doesn’t this “unity in diversity” sound more like saying “The point of belonging to this order is that you live as if there was no order”? I
It certainly might explain the weird behavior by many belonging to this order though.
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jwinch2
Guest
First of all, please take a look at my quote and note that I was quoting from BrotherJR. I want to give credit where it is due.
Secondly, no. It is helpful to remember that they are not called by God to live in community the way Dominicans or Franciscans are. St. Ignatius founded an order of Clerks Regular, not Mendicant Friars. They are quite often sent to various parts of the world on their own, rather than in groups like other orders might be. As such, their formation is such that they need to be more self-reliant and capable of sustaining their spiritual growth without assistance and guidance from their brethren. The average Dominican friar, when he has doubts, etc. can rely on his brothers to help straighten him out. An individual Jesuit is far more likely to have to rely on his own discernment of the will of the Holy Spirit and his mastery of the spiritual exercises if he gets confused.
This goes a long way towards explaining the utility of the Spiritual Exercises, particularly when you remember that St. Ignatius of Loyola was a soldier. Soldiers have Standard Operating Procedures, Operations Orders, their Training, and a Code of Conduct that they can rely on if they end up on their own. The Jesuits have their Constitutions, Formation, and the Spiritual Exercises; and they use them in largely the same way. This also goes a long way towards explaining how some may fall off the wagon of orthodoxy now and then. Soldiers which belong to units that require a great deal of action on their own, separated from their brothers in arms, are more at risk for developing certain problems as compared to soldiers that function as part of a cohesive team within a normal unit structure.
One of the things that Brother JR talks about regularly is that all religious orders and congregations have their problem children. If I can take that idea and expand upon it, I would say that due to the structure of community life in most orders, it rarely rises to the point where it becomes public knowledge. For example, if a Dominican friar goes off the deep end, his prior can simply call him back under obedience and tell him to stay out of sight until they get it sorted out. If they don’t get it sorted out, then they simply do not allow him to perform public ministry. Because Jesuits do not function that way, things may go on for far longer before someone is able to call them to account.
Finally, one of the ways in which the Society of Jesus has been called to serve in the past is to take obscure positions, or to push the boundaries of theology from time to time. This forces the Church to think about how to better clarify her positions. Another way to think about it is that, at times, they serve as a bit of a sounding board or “devil’s advocate” so that the Church can strengthen herself. In normal society, if you know anything about politics, then you know that one political party will often develop “op ed” pieces which actually take positions that they do not agree with. Why? To force their own side to be better able to clarify and explain their positions on particular issues.
The fact that some men within the order have a hard time with this, and may stumble from time to time is not surprising as it is a hard mission, but it also does not make it wrong. Jesus stumbled a few times also. The Church is holy, individual people have problems. The same goes for the Society of Jesus.
I hope that helps a bit…
Peace,
J
jwinch2
Guest
All of the above means that Jesuits have been called by God to live very difficult lives. They deserve our prayers and support.
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passer_by
Guest
Hence why I think its more likely to see Jesuits stray from the way. It essentially boils down to a person possibly saying I am going to discern everything my-self, no? Most of the time when lay people do it they end up in wrong places. I think since even Jesuits are human, they do could also most likely end up in wrong places.
Like, you don’t see any danger here?
I am sure you are aware that a lone soldier who follows his best judgement compared to someone under leadership is considered ineffective?
In that sense, doesn’t this model seem very risky? I am honestly asking here.
Totally agree here.
But this is not politics though. We have souls hanging in the balance. These Op-ed pieces usually end up leading many Catholics astray, no? The church might be getting intellectually stronger in coming to grips with how to defend some theological attack, but at what cost?
I think it helps me better understand why Jesuits are potentially capable of straying majorly from teachings because of the model that they adhere to. But I don’t know if it gives me comfort though
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passer_by
Guest
Ok so after some pondering on your writing, I think understand
To summarize my understanding:-
To summarize my understanding:-
- The Jesuits are a group where everyone is not tightly bounded to an immediate disciplinary structure like most other orders
- This is to support the type of work they do
- This work is indeed dangerous and involves asking tough questions and finding answers to them and that is why Jesuits are taken from the cream of the crop.
- But just like even a Bishop, Cardinal or Pope, they can go astray.
- Yes, it is true that the Jesuits may more likely go astray but it does not logically lead to the conclusion that the Jesuit order should be avoided, modified or that it is unnecessary. In positions such as a parish priest, there is a higher chance to go astray, an even examples of parish priests who have gone astray in the past, since he answers to no one who he immediately comes in contact with (i.e. Laity). But it does not mean the priesthood is unnecessary or should be abolished. The same reasoning applies to Jesuits.
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jwinch2
Guest
I see potential for danger and I see potential for success. Throughout the history of the Jesuits, they have had far more successes than problems. How many Jesuits can you pick out that have really gone off the rails? Everyone seems to point to the same few because they are well known. Suppose there are a hundred that have really lost it. That would be less than 1/2 of 1% of Jesuits worldwide.
Not when there is no command structure in place, or when it is looser which it is in many units. When I was in the Army, my group of 6 soldiers were sent out and once deployed, we were pretty much on out own. Furthermore, there are many units in the military where soldiers are trained to function individually when need calls for it. They are not main line units, but rather special operations. You might try thinking of Jesuits as the Delta Force of consecrated religious. A lone soldier can go places that an entire unit cannot go. So can a lone Jesuit.
Unless you are somehow suggesting that the Holy Father was wrong when he made the Jesuits into an order or that Saint Ignatius of Loyola was not inspired by the Holy Spirit, I am not sure what you are asking me.
That is why it is important to know where you are getting your information and what its intent was. A piece written by a Jesuit scholar may have never been intended for the laity to read. It might have been produced to spark discussion among theologians or the episcopate. Nowadays the laity have access to much more information about the inner workings of the Church then they did in the past. Some of that is a good thing and some, probably not.
At any time the Holy Father feels that they need to change, he has the power to change them. However, much of that has been left up to the Jesuits themselves, which is why they do not have a Rule which is unchangeable by all but the Pope. Since they were not given a rule or allowed to create one, they are intended to be able to manage themselves.I think it helps me better understand why Jesuits are potentially capable of straying majorly from teachings because of the model that they adhere to. But I don’t know if it gives me comfort though
If you have not already done so, you should read this response from the Society of Jesus to the Holy Father regarding some of the issues you and others have noted. sjweb.info/35/documents/decrees.pdf
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jwinch2
Guest
I honestly do not believe that the Jesuits are too much more likely to fall off the tracks then other priests. Their strong formation and the spiritual exercises serve to mitigate this a great deal. I think much of the issue is that when it does happen, it is more noticeable due to the structure of the order.Ok so after some pondering on your writing, I think understand
To summarize my understanding:-
So to answer my own objections,
- The Jesuits are a group where everyone is not tightly bounded to an immediate disciplinary structure like most other orders
- This is to support the type of work they do
- This work is indeed dangerous and involves asking tough questions and finding answers to them and that is why Jesuits are taken from the cream of the crop.
- But just like even a Bishop, Cardinal or Pope, they can go astray.
- Yes, it is true that the Jesuits may more likely go astray but it does not logically lead to the conclusion that the Jesuit order should be avoided, modified or that it is unnecessary. In positions such as a parish priest, there is a higher chance to go astray, an even examples of parish priests who have gone astray in the past, since he answers to no one who he immediately comes in contact with (i.e. Laity). But it does not mean the priesthood is unnecessary or should be abolished. The same reasoning applies to Jesuits.
If you have not read this, you should.
sjweb.info/35/documents/decrees.pdf
Op-ed pieces might not have been the best analogy, but it was what I came up with on the fly. Have you ever seen a teacher take a contrary or an extreme position to force a student to think critically and to present their case effectively? That might work as a better analogy.
Saint Thomas Aquinas, OP describes our knowledge as a light, in the darkness which is God. Because a light only goes so far on dark night, our picture of God is incomplete; because God is the darkness and He is infinite. The Jesuits have been asked to explore the dark places so that we might better see God. That comes with some risks. Multiple popes have decided that the rewards were worth the risks.
Other than that, here is the person to speak to about it: benedictxvi@vatican.va
Peace, and have a blessed Christmas…
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choliks
Guest
I think it was the Society that requested for his resignation.
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