I believe the Jesuits are the best Catholic order!

[ThyKingdomCome]

Aren’t Jesuit Colleges/Universities the main source of interaction between Jesuits and the average person? Isn’t that where the reputation for liberalism is coming from, at least in large part? Here is a list of them:
ajcunet.edu/Member-Institutions
Of these 28, none of them are listed in the Newman Guide:
thenewmanguide.com/TheCatholicColleges/tabid/506/Default.aspx
So that is of concern to me, when I consider that their mission is deeply tied to education. I don’t know much about most of those schools. Of the one that is in my area, I wouldn’t touch the theology department with a 10 foot pole. So that is problematic, and if the others are like the one in my area; if that is why they are not on the Newman Guide list, then I think we need to be careful before we exalt them too much - else we lead people to trust an education that perhaps shouldn’t be trusted quite so much. Of course, you can’t criticize an entire order, but if their primary mechanisms for interacting with young Catholics do not provide authentic theology (and as I said, I only have personal experience with one of them, but the Newman Guide does carry some weight), then you probably shouldn’t broadly compliment their orthodoxy either.

Edited to add that I can’t claim that the Newman Guide deserves to be considered the definitive source on orthodoxy of a higher learning institution, but that it is a valuable resource, considering most of us don’t have first hand knowledge to go from.

 

[jwinch2]

Aren’t Jesuit Colleges/Universities the main source of interaction between Jesuits and the average person? Isn’t that where the reputation for liberalism is coming from, at least in large part? Here is a list of them:
ajcunet.edu/Member-Institutions
Of these 28, none of them are listed in the Newman Guide:
thenewmanguide.com/TheCatholicColleges/tabid/506/Default.aspx
So that is of concern to me, when I consider that their mission is deeply tied to education. I don’t know much about most of those schools. Of the one that is in my area, I wouldn’t touch the theology department with a 10 foot pole. So that is problematic, and if the others are like the one in my area; if that is why they are not on the Newman Guide list, then I think we need to be careful before we exalt them too much - else we lead people to trust an education that perhaps shouldn’t be trusted quite so much. Of course, you can’t criticize an entire order, but if their primary mechanisms for interacting with young Catholics do not provide authentic theology (and as I said, I only have personal experience with one of them, but the Newman Guide does carry some weight), then you probably shouldn’t broadly compliment their orthodoxy either.

Edited to add that I can’t claim that the Newman Guide deserves to be considered the definitive source on orthodoxy of a higher learning institution, but that it is a valuable resource, considering most of us don’t have first hand knowledge to go from.

There is some really good information on this in one of the other threads I linked above. If you are interested, you might consider checking them out.

However, the short answer is that I am not aware of a single Jesuit university in the United States which is actually still run by Jesuits. They all have boards of regents who are non-Jesuits and in most cases presidents who are non-Jesuits. Even then, its not like the faculty is made up of a bunch of priests. The faculty at Georgetown or Boston College is made up of the same time of people who make up the faculty at Michigan or North Carolina and they are hired and fired the same way.

Of course you are correct in that there are some, (e.g. Notre Dame) which do have Jesuits in leadership positions. However, even then, the board is made up of ordinary people which means that the Jesuits are not really in control.

Either way, while I understand your argument, the state of Catholic universities in the United States cannot really be pinned on the Society of Jesus, though to be fair, some cooky things have happened from time to time.

 

[choliks]

Aren’t Jesuit Colleges/Universities the main source of interaction between Jesuits and the average person? Isn’t that where the reputation for liberalism is coming from, at least in large part? Here is a list of them:
ajcunet.edu/Member-Institutions
Of these 28, none of them are listed in the Newman Guide:
thenewmanguide.com/TheCatholicColleges/tabid/506/Default.aspx
So that is of concern to me, when I consider that their mission is deeply tied to education. I don’t know much about most of those schools. Of the one that is in my area, I wouldn’t touch the theology department with a 10 foot pole. So that is problematic, and if the others are like the one in my area; if that is why they are not on the Newman Guide list, then I think we need to be careful before we exalt them too much - else we lead people to trust an education that perhaps shouldn’t be trusted quite so much. Of course, you can’t criticize an entire order, but if their primary mechanisms for interacting with young Catholics do not provide authentic theology (and as I said, I only have personal experience with one of them, but the Newman Guide does carry some weight), then you probably shouldn’t broadly compliment their orthodoxy either.

Edited to add that I can’t claim that the Newman Guide deserves to be considered the definitive source on orthodoxy of a higher learning institution, but that it is a valuable resource, considering most of us don’t have first hand knowledge to go from.

I’ll counter this with just one university. I don’t know about the rest of the world, but this one university has made a name for itself.

The or most popularly known as Pontifical Gregorian UniversityPontificia Università Gregoriana.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

There is some really good information on this in one of the other threads I linked above. If you are interested, you might consider checking them out.

Thanks for the reminder. Maybe after Christmas, when I have some time…

However, the short answer is that I am not aware of a single Jesuit university in the United States which is actually still run by Jesuits. They all have boards of regents who are non-Jesuits and in most cases presidents who are non-Jesuits. Even then, its not like the faculty is made up of a bunch of priests. The faculty at Georgetown or Boston College is made up of the same time of people who make up the faculty at Michigan or North Carolina and they are hired and fired the same way.

Of course you are correct in that there are some, (e.g. Notre Dame) which do have Jesuits in leadership positions. However, even then, the board is made up of ordinary people which means that the Jesuits are not really in control.

Ultimately, these institutions are operating as Jesuit institutions. Who is responsible for putting non-Jesuits in all of the faculty and leadership positions? Who decided that their colleges shouldn’t be under their control? If they truly have no control over what is happening at their educational institutions, then they should take their name off of them. Otherwise, they should exert their authority and fix things. They can’t have it both ways. Right now, their name is horribly tarnished by the image THEY allow out there. I’m not sure how long it took FUS to turn around, but I’m thinking we can’t let Jesuit colleges continue the heterodoxy for too long before they have to be considered accountable for not fixing things.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

There is some really good information on this in one of the other threads I linked above. If you are interested, you might consider checking them out.

However, the short answer is that I am not aware of a single Jesuit university in the United States which is actually still run by Jesuits. They all have boards of regents who are non-Jesuits and in most cases presidents who are non-Jesuits. Even then, its not like the faculty is made up of a bunch of priests. The faculty at Georgetown or Boston College is made up of the same time of people who make up the faculty at Michigan or North Carolina and they are hired and fired the same way.

Of course you are correct in that there are some, (e.g. Notre Dame) which do have Jesuits in leadership positions. However, even then, the board is made up of ordinary people which means that the Jesuits are not really in control.

Either way, while I understand your argument, the state of Catholic universities in the United States cannot really be pinned on the Society of Jesus, though to be fair, some cooky things have happened from time to time.

Whether or not there are Jesuits in some leadership positions at Notre Dame I am unsure of, but I am sure that Notre Dame is an institution of and run by the Holy Cross fathers and brothers, not the Jesuits.

 

[jwinch2]

Whether or not there are Jesuits in some leadership positions at Notre Dame I am unsure of, but I am sure that Notre Dame is an institution of and run by the Holy Cross fathers and brothers, not the Jesuits.

Oops, I had it in my head that Fr. Jenkins was a Jesuit, but I can see that I had it mixed up. Thanks for catching me on that one. I need to learn to stop posting at 4:30 AM. Insomnia stinks.

Peace, and have a blessed Christmas!

 

[passer_by]

I honestly do not believe that the Jesuits are too much more likely to fall off the tracks then other priests. **Their strong formation and the spiritual exercises serve to mitigate this a great deal. **I think much of the issue is that when it does happen, it is more noticeable due to the structure of the order.

But doesn’t this mean that you also believe that they are more likely to go astray? Hence why you say that the strong formation and spiritual exercises (both of which can not be guaranteed apriori) are so essential?

If you have not read this, you should.

sjweb.info/35/documents/decrees.pdf

That is a fairly long document. Thank you for providing it. I will give it a read after Christmas.

Op-ed pieces might not have been the best analogy, but it was what I came up with on the fly. Have you ever seen a teacher take a contrary or an extreme position to force a student to think critically and to present their case effectively? That might work as a better analogy.

Saint Thomas Aquinas, OP describes our knowledge as a light, in the darkness which is God. Because a light only goes so far on dark night, our picture of God is incomplete; because God is the darkness and He is infinite. The Jesuits have been asked to explore the dark places so that we might better see God. That comes with some risks. Multiple popes have decided that the rewards were worth the risks.

I understand your analogy but that is exactly where I disagree. In the case of a class room teacher challenging a student, the things at stake aren’t that great. If the teacher was challenging the notion of a student that jumping in to the fire was unhealthy, you would say she crossed the line right?

I think in the same way, when Jesuits or any other order writes against/differently from the Church teachings, whether to raise discussion or not, it is unacceptable. Why? Because a very possible and reasonable result is the loss of souls. The loss of souls is grave as it gets.

I am all for exploring dark places. But the model which the Jesuit adheres to in his research is not so different from a lay person. They both believe that it is fair game to draw conclusions against Church teachings and publish them publicly. What about the damage that causes to others regardless of intent?

Where in the Bible does it say it is justified and good to challenge ones faith even over at the possible loss of the faith of others? Whatever happened to sin of scandal?

Other than that, here is the person to speak to about it: benedictxvi@vatican.va

I highly doubt he cares if I wrote to him or has the time to read it.
But I think eventually these mistakes will get corrected in the church. Perhaps it will be Pope Benedict himself, or someone after him… who knows.

I only keep raising these concerns with Catholics I speak to because that person might one day be a Priest, then a Bishop, a Cardinal, perhaps Pope. Then he might do something about it.

I am sure the discussions that Pope Benedict had when he was young with his friends and the culture he grew up in certainly affects his decisions today. Note, I don’t mean with respect to Church teaching on Faith and Morals. I am solely referring to the policies, judgements and decisions he may take on structures, organization, approaches etc.

Peace, and have a blessed Christmas…

Merry Christmas to you too my friend!

 

[jwinch2]

Where in the Bible does it say it is justified and good to challenge ones faith even over at the possible loss of the faith of others? Whatever happened to sin of scandal?

I have to admit that this is a bit concerning, as it sounds as if you are suggesting that if it is not mentioned in the Bible, then we are not to do it. I could just as easily counter with the question of where in the Bible does it state that we will even have a Bible, let alone a Catechism, Universities, Religious Orders, etc? However, that would be a ridiculous question on my part since obviously the Church holds sacred Tradition and the Magesterium to be co-equal with sacred Scripture. I am sure that you were not intending to suggest that and was likely just a slip up, but it did come across that way.

As for the rest, I think you really need to consider that there are differences in writings which are intended for the laity and writings which are intended for theologians and the episcopate. Jesuits do both. A Jesuit who is running a parish or campus ministry has a differing responsibility than one who is a theologian and might be working at a university. Even Pope Benedict has done this. He has been quoted as saying that some of his writings on the Gospels, prior to when he was made pope, were intended to create discussion and debate well into the future. They were not intended to represent official teaching of the Church.

Following this, I will leave off and let you have the last word if you like. I have said my piece on it, and we are pretty much spinning our wheels to my mind.

Merry Christmas.

 

[passer_by]

I have to admit that this is a bit concerning, as it sounds as if you are suggesting that if it is not mentioned in the Bible, then we are not to do it. I could just as easily counter with the question of where in the Bible does it state that we will even have a Bible, let alone a Catechism, Universities, Religious Orders, etc? However, that would be a ridiculous question on my part since obviously the Church holds sacred Tradition and the Magesterium to be co-equal with sacred Scripture. I am sure that you were not intending to suggest that and was likely just a slip up, but it did come across that way.

Sorry if that came across that way. That was in no way hinting toward a Sola Scriptura view point or anything. I was merely saying that the notion that one may achieve some good by jeopardizing the faith of many is unwise and not backed up by any moral teaching.

As for the rest, I think you really need to consider that there are differences in writings which are intended for the laity and writings which are intended for theologians and the episcopate. Jesuits do both. A Jesuit who is running a parish or campus ministry has a differing responsibility than one who is a theologian and might be working at a university. Even Pope Benedict has done this. He has been quoted as saying that some of his writings on the Gospels, prior to when he was made pope, were intended to create discussion and debate well into the future. They were not intended to represent official teaching of the Church.

I am not sure I understand.

Like I can see the merit in someone asking something, lets say back in the 16th century, on how to reconcile Providence with Free-will. I think that is ok. But to write a piece saying that we must abandon one or the other would in my view be unacceptable. Sure, it might spark dialogue but it will also cause many to go against church teaching.

So the first case is a matter of asking tough questions and trying to answer them. I think that is commendable.

The second is also asking tough questions but it is causing scandal to the faithful. That is unacceptable.

I
Following this, I will leave off and let you have the last word if you like. I have said my piece on it, and we are pretty much spinning our wheels to my mind.

Merry Christmas.

Probably true. As you said, neither you nor I can change these ways. But who knows, someone who might read this, who becomes Pope one day, might give this discussion some thought and if it need be, make the changes

God bless you and have a Merry Christmas!