I believe there is God, I believe Christ was God, persuade me of the benefits of renouncing this belief

[minkymurph]

Thanks to all who have waded through the philosophy of minkymurph.

Hope I get responses.

In conclusion -

Here are the words of song listened to on a regular basis when I was converting to Catholicism.

Trophy :yeah_me: will be awarded to the person who can guess the song and the group.

And a trophy :yeah_me: awarded for each correct guess as to what the words of the song meant to me at the time.

Clue - prior to becoming Catholic I was ardent socialist who thought the Thatcherite government was evil and should be overthrown by revolution. I never got around to actually starting the revolution, but in true socialist style I talked about it in bars a lot.

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from hell
Blue skies from pain
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?

Did they get you to trade
Your heroes for ghosts
Hot ashes for trees
Hot air for a cool breeze
Cold comfort for change
Did you exchange - a walk on part in the war - for a lead role in a cage.

How I wish, how I wish you were here
We’re just two lost souls
Swimming in a fish bowl
Year after year
Running over the same old ground
And how we found
The same old fears
Wish you were here

 

[PRmerger]

I never got around to actually starting the revolution, but in true socialist style I talked about it in bars a lot.

Best line ever!

Wish we could someday get together at a bar and chat about all things religious–socialism and politics, family life, culture, too.

 

[minkymurph]

Best line ever!

Wish we could someday get together at a bar and chat about all things religious–socialism and politics, family life, culture, too.

That would be good.

Unfortunately a big pond lies between us.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

That said, where I was coming from is all life today evolved from the first micro organisms. Is that correct?

That’s the prevailing hypothesis.

As to how life actually began - not up on those theories.

No one knows. It’s been found that under certain conditions some of the molecules that would make up part of DNA or RNA can form. But that’s one link in a chain of unknown events that could lead to life. I can’t say that I am well read on the research on how life may have started.

…]but I wondered what it would be like not to believe in God - and by comparison to believing in God.

I think that several aspects of life are indistinguishable in the lives of those that believe there is a God and those that don’t. For the day to day activities it might not be as different as you might otherwise think.

To illustrate - the atheist who says, ‘You can believe in God if you want but everyone is going to think you are an idiot.’

I missed that one. I remember the word “idiot” coming up in a comment about denying axioms.

They claim this gives the believer a choice, but the choice is be an atheist or be thought an idiot.

Thought an idiot by whom? At least here in the USA more people than not claim some religion. Claiming a religion is status quo. Depending on where you live its possible that there’s a low chance of being asked of one’s religion.

What if you actually became an atheist? Would the atheist as described above say, ‘Oh? Are you sure about that? I preferred you as a believer.’ I think not. They may say, ‘That’s your choice - so long as you are happy with it.’ But would part of them not be pleased?

One’s response to it is a personal matter and not every person will respond the same. A friend of mine lost her conviction that there is a God; she started to question it after she found herself in dire straits and the only people that made personal efforts to help her out were all non-religious. This isn’t proof that there is or is not a God, but the challenge to her perception of Christians and atheists was enough for her to start questioning other things. After the loss of her conviction there was no congratulations on her new position on the God proposition, nor were there people trying to pull her back. Perhaps for some others in the same scenario there may be some celebratory comment or encouragement for the person to give their stance more thought. I don’t know.

 

[PRmerger]

I think that several aspects of life are indistinguishable in the lives of those that believe there is a God and those that don’t. For the day to day activities it might not be as different as you might otherwise think.

I agree.

It’s in the important matters such as love of neighbor, sacrifice for others, service and saintliness in which Believers reign supreme.

Now, to be sure, atheists are capable of being good, and even heroic, but that’s just like they’re diving off the low dive.

For the truly high divers, you see Believers surpassing and dominating.

 

[Bradski]

Thanks to all who have waded through the philosophy of minkymurph.

Hope I get responses.

In conclusion -

Here are the words of song listened to on a regular basis when I was converting to Catholicism.

Trophy :yeah_me: will be awarded to the person who can guess the song and the group.

And a trophy :yeah_me: awarded for each correct guess as to what the words of the song meant to me at the time.

Clue - prior to becoming Catholic I was ardent socialist who thought the Thatcherite government was evil and should be overthrown by revolution. I never got around to actually starting the revolution, but in true socialist style I talked about it in bars a lot.

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from hell
Blue skies from pain
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?

Did they get you to trade
Your heroes for ghosts
Hot ashes for trees
Hot air for a cool breeze
Cold comfort for change
Did you exchange - a walk on part in the war - for a lead role in a cage.

How I wish, how I wish you were here
We’re just two lost souls
Swimming in a fish bowl
Year after year
Running over the same old ground
And how we found
The same old fears
Wish you were here

The somg is too easy. I probably listen to Dave Gilmore more than any other artist. Simple chord changes as well. Easy for a klutz like me to play.

And it’s about deception. About the fact that people can’t see the reality. And loss. You Irish love to travel, so did someone close to you, another socialist, frustrated by what was happening in the UK and feeling that nothing could be done…short of revolution, up sticks and leave?

I was an angry young man at the time. Thatcher wiped out whole communities in South Wales. She was never forgiven. She had no empathy. There were low key celebrations when she died. I raised a glass myself.

 

[minkymurph]

The somg is too easy. I probably listen to Dave Gilmore more than any other artist. Simple chord changes as well. Easy for a klutz like me to play.

And it’s about deception. About the fact that people can’t see the reality. And loss. You Irish love to travel, so did someone close to you, another socialist, frustrated by what was happening in the UK and feeling that nothing could be done…short of revolution, up sticks and leave?

I was an angry young man at the time. Thatcher wiped out whole communities in South Wales. She was never forgiven. She had no empathy. There were low key celebrations when she died. I raised a glass myself.

Trophy for the song. :yeah_me:

You didn’t name it - but I believe you know what it is.

Is about deception and people not seeing reality. When I was converting to Catholicism I wondered if I was deceiving myself because I wanted to believe it was true. ‘Trading heroes for ghosts.’ Also giving up ideals that were ‘cold comfort’ in exchange for something else.

I think you deserve another trophy for exceptional insight. :yeah_me:

The title of the song which I believe you know is Wish You Were Here.
The person I wished was there was God - but we were lost from each other and what was holding me back was misgivings about religion I had had for some time.

 

[minkymurph]

The somg is too easy. I probably listen to Dave Gilmore more than any other artist. Simple chord changes as well. Easy for a klutz like me to play.

And it’s about deception. About the fact that people can’t see the reality. And loss. You Irish love to travel, so did someone close to you, another socialist, frustrated by what was happening in the UK and feeling that nothing could be done…short of revolution, up sticks and leave?

I was an angry young man at the time. Thatcher wiped out whole communities in South Wales. She was never forgiven. She had no empathy. There were low key celebrations when she died. I raised a glass myself.

Not being able to change things was also part of it, but in sense of becoming Catholic. Becoming Catholic also meant giving up some of my ideals.

The first verse is about thinking I knew everything - which when I was younger I did and could have solved the world’s problems single handed.

When I was converting to Catholicism I also listened to Coming Back to Life a lot.

 

[Bradski]

Not being able to change things was also part of it, but in sense of becoming Catholic. Becoming Catholic also meant giving up some of my ideals.

The first verse is about thinking I knew everything - which when I was younger I did and could have solved the world’s problems single handed.

When I was converting to Catholicism I also listened to Coming Back to Life a lot.

It’s funny…I always read the first two verses as someone giving up and looking for a non existant cool breeze to combat the reality of the hot air. Exchanging your real life heroes for ghosts. Giving up on the fight for freedom of thought and having your intellect caged.

You were a socialist, so a little Marx wouldn’t be out of place and it’s a small step from the analogy of the cage to one of being in chains:

‘Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower.’

Thank you, Karl. And the next song we will deconstruct, a true classic of its genre:

Achy breaky heart.

Take it away Billy Ray.

 

[inocente]

The point of this analogy is, is it really that important that we believe is absolutely true?

This is what I was getting at. There is no a priori reason why we shouldn’t fool ourselves. We can’t even be sure there is any knowable ultimate truth anyway, so why not believe whatever comforts us and makes us happy?

There is a philosophical argument which takes that to its logical conclusion, Robert Nozick’s ‘experience machine’. The idea is you live your entire life inside this machine, and it replicates experiences so perfectly that you never know the difference. It’s not evil like in The Matrix, so it can be programmed to give you an amazing life full of accomplishments, where you raise a great family and die fulfilled with them gathered around you. You spend your whole life inside this machine thinking it was all real, and it’s a wonderful life.

The question is, does that seem like a life worth living? Is a life inside the experience machine a life well lived? Most would say no, something very important is missing.

Likewise, the argument goes, the most important thing about whatever we believe isn’t that it aids our well-being but that we’re not fooling ourselves.

 

[inocente]

The somg is too easy. I probably listen to Dave Gilmore more than any other artist.

There was another regular poster who rated Pink Floyd. A 1970s pop combo known only for its pristine lack of talent and never ending dirges, I would tell him. Wound him up ever time.

 

[minkymurph]

No one knows. It’s been found that under certain conditions some of the molecules that would make up part of DNA or RNA can form. But that’s one link in a chain of unknown events that could lead to life. I can’t say that I am well read on the research on how life may have started.

I haven’t read these theories in many years.

To me there is a creative power that sustains the entire universe. That’s what I call ‘God,’ and I believe it can personify. Evidence by the fact this happened - that this power took on the form of living things. Not putting this very well so hope you know what I’m trying to explain.

I think that several aspects of life are indistinguishable in the lives of those that believe there is a God and those that don’t. For the day to day activities it might not be as different as you might otherwise think.

Perhaps it isn’t, but we all see life through a certain lens. This can determine our political allegiances, our views on marriage, ethics, how we respond to our children’s questions. Though perhaps as you say it’s not that different on a day to day level, and only becomes significant in the case of major decisions.

Thought an idiot by whom? At least here in the USA more people than not claim some religion. Claiming a religion is status quo. Depending on where you live its possible that there’s a low chance of being asked of one’s religion.

Very radical atheists who think people who believe in God can’t be intelligent because they possess an unintelligent belief. I used to say to myself, ‘I know too many atheists.’ Now I would say it is not so much the case I know too many atheists, but too many …fill in the blank.

One’s response to it is a personal matter and not every person will respond the same. A friend of mine lost her conviction that there is a God; she started to question it after she found herself in dire straits and the only people that made personal efforts to help her out were all non-religious. This isn’t proof that there is or is not a God, but the challenge to her perception of Christians and atheists was enough for her to start questioning other things. After the loss of her conviction there was no congratulations on her new position on the God proposition, nor were there people trying to pull her back. Perhaps for some others in the same scenario there may be some celebratory comment or encouragement for the person to give their stance more thought. I don’t know.

I can relate to this.

I see what you mean. I wrote what I did as there are atheists who have said to me, ‘I wish you would just stop believing in God,’ and that telling you’re children there is a God is tantamount to child abuse. I refer back to what I have written above concerning being thought of as an idiot.

 

[minkymurph]

It’s funny…I always read the first two verses as someone giving up and looking for a non existant cool breeze to combat the reality of the hot air. Exchanging your real life heroes for ghosts. Giving up on the fight for freedom of thought and having your intellect caged.

That’s exactly what I’m getting at. :yeah_me:

You were a socialist, so a little Marx wouldn’t be out of place and it’s a small step from the analogy of the cage to one of being in chains:

Yep. :yup:

Thank you, Karl. And the next song we will deconstruct, a true classic of its genre:

Achy breaky heart.

Take it away Billy Ray.

Apart from Achy breaky heart are there any lyrics?

I now have a vision of people line dancing in cowboy hats.

 

[minkymurph]

Quote of the day:

Religion is like music. You either like the sound of it, or you don’t.

minkymurph

 

[minkymurph]

This is what I was getting at. There is no a priori reason why we shouldn’t fool ourselves. We can’t even be sure there is any knowable ultimate truth anyway, so why not believe whatever comforts us and makes us happy?

There is a philosophical argument which takes that to its logical conclusion, Robert Nozick’s ‘experience machine’. The idea is you live your entire life inside this machine, and it replicates experiences so perfectly that you never know the difference. It’s not evil like in The Matrix, so it can be programmed to give you an amazing life full of accomplishments, where you raise a great family and die fulfilled with them gathered around you. You spend your whole life inside this machine thinking it was all real, and it’s a wonderful life.

The question is, does that seem like a life worth living? Is a life inside the experience machine a life well lived? Most would say no, something very important is missing.

Likewise, the argument goes, the most important thing about whatever we believe isn’t that it aids our well-being but that we’re not fooling ourselves.

In principle yes, and in terms of religious belief everyone thinks what they believe is true so they are not fooling themselves. Likewise the atheist is not fooling his or her self where they genuinely doubt the existence of God. That said, there is a part of us that believes things because we want to rather than being convinced it is true.

There are people who I would say do live their life ‘inside a machine’ in the sense that nothing outside their view of world and their immediate needs and concerns don’t exist in the sense they are not worth consideration. The phrase we use here is ‘living in a bubble.’

There are others to whom truth matters a great deal, but establishing it is notoriously difficult. I once handled a case where the opposing party were telling a considerable number of porkies. In negotiating a settlement I got really good deal, but it irritated me I still had not gotten to the truth. I was advised to drop the quest for truth on the ground I would never get it, and it didn’t matter anyway as I’d got above and beyond what I wanted in the settlement.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Quote of the day:

Religion is like music. You either like the sound of it, or you don’t.

minkymurph

“Wagner’s music is actually much better than it sounds”.

 

[minkymurph]

“Wagner’s music is actually much better than it sounds”.

Plagerist - You didn’t think of your own quote.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I see what you mean. I wrote what I did as there are atheists who have said to me, ‘I wish you would just stop believing in God,’ and that telling you’re children there is a God is tantamount to child abuse. I refer back to what I have written above concerning being thought of as an idiot.

There’s a spectrum of what people think of and say about hell. The descriptions I hear from some make it sound like an excessively boring place. In some of the other more tangible descriptions it’s a place in which one is constantly being tortured. Hearing that someone teaches their child about hell doesn’t tell me if they are being abusive or not. But depending on the description that they use and how they go about reinforcing it a child could experience high amounts of stress. If the people telling you that amounts to child abuse are people you regularly converse with it may be worth finding what descriptions of hell they are most familiar with and see where your descriptions agree and diverge; they may be talking to you about a description that doesn’t match your own.

 

[minkymurph]

There’s a spectrum of what people think of and say about hell. The descriptions I hear from some make it sound like an excessively boring place. In some of the other more tangible descriptions it’s a place in which one is constantly being tortured. Hearing that someone teaches their child about hell doesn’t tell me if they are being abusive or not. But depending on the description that they use and how they go about reinforcing it a child could experience high amounts of stress. If the people telling you that amounts to child abuse are people you regularly converse with it may be worth finding what descriptions of hell they are most familiar with and see where your descriptions agree and diverge; they may be talking to you about a description that doesn’t match your own.

There is a spectrum of what people say about hell, and what some people tell their children is tantamount to abuse. I’m not big into the Devil, demons and eternal torment. There are much more positive things to focus on and I reckon if you do you have nothing to fear from hell.

Have you ever heard of a book Shake Hands with the Devil? I think there is a film as well. I personally haven’t read it - keep meaning to. It was written by a Lieutenant who commanded a UN mission in Rwanda. As I understand it he was an atheist prior to this assignment. He writes, ‘I know there is a God because in Rwanda I shook hands with the devil. I have seen him, I have smelled him and I have touched him. I know the devil exists and therefore I know there is a God.’

 

[PRmerger]

There’s a spectrum of what people think of and say about hell. The descriptions I hear from some make it sound like an excessively boring place. In some of the other more tangible descriptions it’s a place in which one is constantly being tortured.

Have you heard this description from Peter Kreeft:

“Imagine a man in hell—no, a ghost—endlessly chasing his own shadow, as the light of God shines endlessly behind him. If he would only turn and face the light, he would be saved. But he refuses to—forever.” That is hell.

He goes on to say, “Hell follows from two other doctrines: heaven and free will. If there is a heaven, there can be a not-heaven. And if there is free will, we can act on it and abuse it. Those who deny hell must also deny either heaven (as does Western secularism) or free will (as does Eastern pantheism).”