I believe there is God, I believe Christ was God, persuade me of the benefits of renouncing this belief

[Faithdancer]

This thread seems to be drawing resident CAF atheists. Of course, why atheists frequent CAF at all is baffling, if they are so sure that belief in God is false. What need does CAF fulfill for atheists? I mean, there’s absolutely nothing I need on atheist forums. Very curious…

 

[AgnosticBoy]

No Christian should believe without evidence/logic to back it up.

I thought that Christian faith was supposed to lead to evidence and not more faith.

So are all of your beliefs, AB…unless you check out the engineer of every elevator you step into? And look at the building specs before you cross a bridge?

I have beliefs but then I also have knowledge. I don’t claim to have the latter unless I can back it up with verifiable evidence and/or logic.

Can you give an example of this in the Bible?

And how would this prove that there is no God or that Christ wasn’t God?

My point here is not about disproving God but rather it’s distinguishing between belief and knowledge. I offered an example involving answered prayer. Anything that goes good is God’s doing to some people.

 

[Arizona_Fat_Gir]

Talking snakes? That would be understandable if the devil spoke through the snake, making the person think the snake could talk.

Actually animals do talk. I heard a dog say “I love you.” I heard birds talk. I had a parakeet that talked. My dog “talks” in his sleep and that is funny to hear.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Also, I am curious as to how you intend to pursue a long term romance, AB?

Will you use empirical data to determine whether the woman you’re attracted to is a suitable match? (See Don Tillman in The Rosie Project who has no room for “faith and subjectivity”)

Or will you have some faith in her, and in your future together, and make a subjective decision about your relationship?

Of course, I recommend you use some data and objectivity as well when it comes to making this very, very important decision.

Both/And, AB. Both/And is almost always the way to go. Faith AND Reason. Objectivity AND Subjectivity.

Faith and subjectivity are inevitably a part of everyone’s life but again there are things that we can have knowledge of, as well. My point about Christianity is not about God not existing, but rather about the methodology/criteria that many use to know about His will. It is not anything that would lead to knowledge and therefore Christians should not claim to have such. Lets take your example. I can ask my wife to let me know if she’s the one that did something for me, or she can tell me yes or no. When a Christian prays to God, they interpret a certain event as being from God, or some subjective feeling or thought that popped into their head as being from God. This is problematic, and would inevitably lead to not only unverifiable claims but also to many people being misled when they get it wrong.

 

[minkymurph]

Why would anyone want to do that? I could certainly give you reasons why I don’t believe there is a God and I might suggest that those reasons are not specific to me - that they would apply to you as well.

I have absolutely no idea - but there are those who make a considerable effort in this regard.

The last person who tried to persuade me there was no God claimed he was doing so because he wanted me to think for myself.

But as long as we maintain a separation between the religious and the secular (or church and government to put it another way), then freedom of religion is extremely important.

I may not agree with what you believe, but I will fight etc etc.

I have no issue with separation of Church and State.

Incidentally, you may get an argument that you don’t actually need your beliefs, that you are a good person and a Christian not a good person because you are a Christian. But if belief gives you comfort in a cold world and hope in what seems often to be a hopeless one, then stick with it.

The counter argument to this one I have been confronted with is, ‘You just using your religion as a crutch.’ My reply was, ‘That’s what it’s for.’

 

[minkymurph]

If, however, you are actually interested in examining your beliefs based upon ACTUAL evidence, that is a whole different ballgame. But in this (hypothetical) case you must be willing to consider both outcomes, the ones which support your beliefs and the ones which contradict them. Sound like an interesting experiment. I am willing to participate in the reverse experiment. Any and all actual evidence will be contemplated, examined, and if I find them convincing they will be accepted. Cross my heart and hope to die… (but not soon )

The case is hypothetical and discussion from one perspective only would serve little purpose. Counter arguments must be considered.

This is exactly why I started this thread - as an interesting experiment.

 

[minkymurph]

?
Why? Why do you want to be persuaded to “renounce” it?

.

I don’t - the question is hypothetical and the thread is an experiment.

 

[minkymurph]

Just want to point out, and sorry if someone else already has, but Christ is God. Present tense. Eternal tense, as it were.
I’m sure minkymurph knows this. Just don’t want anyone else getting the wrong idea.

Yes I do know - thanks for clarifying.

 

[PRmerger]

This thread seems to be drawing resident CAF atheists. Of course, why atheists frequent CAF at all is baffling, if they are so sure that belief in God is false. What need does CAF fulfill for atheists? I mean, there’s absolutely nothing I need on atheist forums. Very curious…

I think the attraction is dialogue.

And good for them for choosing to come here!

 

[PRmerger]

So are all of your beliefs, AB…unless you check out the engineer of every elevator you step into? And look at the building specs before you cross a bridge?

Just a wee correction–“So are most of your beliefs, AB”.

 

[PRmerger]

Faith and subjectivity are inevitably a part of everyone’s life but again there are things that we can have knowledge of, as well. My point about Christianity is not about God not existing, but rather about the methodology/criteria that many use to know about His will. It is not anything that would lead to knowledge and therefore Christians should not claim to have such.

Your objection is that some folks say “I know with great certainty that X is what God wills for me”?

Really?

Lets take your example. I can ask my wife to let me know if she’s the one that did something for me, or she can tell me yes or no. When a Christian prays to God, they interpret a certain event as being from God, or some subjective feeling or thought that popped into their head as being from God. This is problematic, and would inevitably lead to not only unverifiable claims but also to many people being misled when they get it wrong.

Ok. You are correct–there is no way, typically, for a Christian to know that their interpretation is actually an answered prayer.

How does that prove that there is no God or that Christ isn’t God?

 

[Faithdancer]

I think the attraction is dialogue.

And good for them for choosing to come here!

Why do you think atheists need dialogue with followers of Jesus Christ?

 

[Vonsalza]

I don’t think you should renounce your “belief”, but rather you should renounce any conclusions about it being certain or ‘knowledge’ unless you have evidence/logic to back it up. A lot of Christianity is based on “faith” and subjectivity.

Hey AB .

Cautiously, I largely agree here.

As all of the ancient sects of the faith employ an authoritative episcopate, I think that the subjectivity is substantially limited when compared to most protestant Christianity - particularly the evangelical flavors of it. But you’re spot-on in asserting that Christianity is partly predicated in faith.

In my experience, those who proclaim to know God’s will are usually swayed by their own will because what counts as an “answered prayer” to them is no more than a feeling or an event that just happened to go their way. Unless God gives an objective sign, then you don’t know for sure that it was God. The same stands for the biblical writers!

We do maintain that the biblical writers (particularly the NT ones) carried an empowerment and authorization concerning statements of the faith that the lay-person like me does not carry.

I would be very hesitant to conflate the legitimacy of an apostle’s statements about God with those made by your common adherent as the belief in that equality isn’t held by the overwhelming majority of Christians on the planet. It gets more obscure the further one geographically gets from the American south.

Btw, I should also mention that coming to the positive atheist side is not necessarily any better, because then you’re just trading in one set of dogma for another.

Wise and correct observation, imo.

 

[minkymurph]

This thread seems to be drawing resident CAF atheists. Of course, why atheists frequent CAF at all is baffling, if they are so sure that belief in God is false. What need does CAF fulfill for atheists? I mean, there’s absolutely nothing I need on atheist forums. Very curious…

Initially it baffled me, but now I think there are people who engage in debate simply for the sake of it because they enjoy debating.

My Protestant business partner and I have had some marathon debates simply because we enjoy sparring with each other. We are both natural debaters - probably because we are both naturally argumentative - and we are both on the same level of intellect and share common interests, so we can give each other a good argument.

Unfortunately he has high functioning autism so sometimes I get outclassed in the knowledge stakes.

For atheists who enjoy debating and whose favourite topic of debate is God and religion, who else are they going to debate with other than believers? I do wonder when I read some posts if there is an agenda, but as a general rule I would say those who are radically anything have a tendency to discuss and debate only with those who agree with them.

 

[minkymurph]

Talking snakes? That would be understandable if the devil spoke through the snake, making the person think the snake could talk.

Actually animals do talk. I heard a dog say “I love you.” I heard birds talk. I had a parakeet that talked. My dog “talks” in his sleep and that is funny to hear.

You raise an interesting point. I stand to be corrected but I don’t think the Bible actually says the devil spoke through the snake. And - the snake got punished in having it’s legs removed. Now if the devil spoke through the snake why would God punish the snake?

I wonder if the significance of the snake in this account is a warning to stay away from snakes - because can bite heels - but also a warning for the snake in that where they do bite heels their head will get stood on.

 

[Faithdancer]

Initially it baffled me, but now I think there are people who engage in debate simply for the sake of it because they enjoy debating.

My Protestant business partner and I have had some marathon debates simply because we enjoy sparring with each other. We are both natural debaters - probably because we are both naturally argumentative - and we are both on the same level of intellect and share common interests, so we can give each other a good argument.

Unfortunately he has high functioning autism so sometimes I get outclassed in the knowledge stakes.

For atheists who enjoy debating and whose favourite topic of debate is God and religion, who else are they going to debate with other than believers? I do wonder when I read some posts if there is an agenda, but as a general rule I would say those who are radically anything have a tendency to discuss and debate only with those who agree with them.

Your last sentence suggests that atheists here are uncertain about their atheism And it explains why I feel zero need to learn more about atheism. I know enough to reject it, categorically, as a lie. Sad that so many buy into it but then, Scripture consistently predicts this.

 

[EnosJadon]

Like others have said before me, if you want to believe in Christ that’s perfectly fine with me. There are far more sinister ideologies in the world today than Christianity. So by all means, be a Christian if it makes you happy. All we’re asking is that you consider the alternative, that there might be a better way.

As the bible says, “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things”.

The hardest thing about life, is that it isn’t fair. The innocent suffer. The good die. And there’s no fairy godmother who’s going to change that. But at some point we need to grow up and accept that for better or worse, life is, what life is, and all of our prayers will only change it in-so-far as it changes ourselves. As hard as it may be to accept, we don’t need God to give our lives meaning. Because the greatest things in life…to love, to hope, to persevere, to give of one’s self,…these come from within, and although a faith in God may help us find them, their source has always lain within ourselves. Yes, the church helps to give these things expression and structure, but the true worth of the church comes from the actions of it’s people, and is merely personified within its God. But there are times when faith in ourselves isn’t enough, because life is too cruel and too hard, and so we create something greater than ourselves…to give ourselves meaning…to give ourselves hope in the face of the hopeless…we create God. We make ourselves stronger, not realizing that the strength lay within ourselves all along.

But the time comes when we must set aside childish things, both as a person, and as a people. We must display the nobler virtues of our character, and rise up of our own accord. Not because of the virtues of God, but because of the virtues of ourselves. Neither forgetting nor renouncing God, but understanding Him, and being indebted to Him. You may think that such virtues don’t lie within us, but I think that they do. And I think that if you try, you can find them, even without God.

Now you can continue to believe in God if wish to, but nobler is the person who does the right thing, simply because it’s the right thing. And if there is a God, He would be proud for your having done so.

Well, that’s my best shot at convincing you to renounce God. And I know…it didn’t work.

P.S. Belated HAPPY BIRTHDAY to LeLi

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

No Christian should believe without evidence/logic to back it up.

So where is the evidence for walking on water? Outside the Bible, of course. Anyone is welcome to chime in.

 

[Faithdancer]

Like others have said before me, if you want to believe in Christ that’s perfectly fine with me. There are far more sinister ideologies in the world today than Christianity. So by all means, be a Christian if it makes you happy. All we’re asking is that you consider the alternative, that there might be a better way.

As the bible says, “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things”.

The hardest thing about life, is that it isn’t fair. The innocent suffer. The good die. And there’s no fairy godmother who’s going to change that. But at some point we need to grow up and accept that for better or worse, life is, what life is, and all of our prayers will only change it in-so-far as it changes ourselves. As hard as it may be to accept, we don’t need God to give our lives meaning. Because the greatest things in life…to love, to hope, to persevere, to give of one’s self,…these come from within, and although a faith in God may help us find them, their source has always lain within ourselves. Yes, the church helps to give these things expression and structure, but the true worth of the church comes from the actions of it’s people, and is merely personified within its God. But there are times when faith in ourselves isn’t enough, because life is too cruel and too hard, and so we create something greater than ourselves…to give ourselves meaning…to give ourselves hope in the face of the hopeless…we create God. We make ourselves stronger, not realizing that the strength lay within ourselves all along.

But the time comes when we must set aside childish things, both as a person, and as a people. We must display the nobler virtues of our character, and rise up of our own accord. Not because of the virtues of God, but because of the virtues of ourselves. Neither forgetting nor renouncing God, but understanding Him, and being indebted to Him. You may think that such virtues don’t lie within us, but I think that they do. And I think that if you try, you can find them, even without God.

Now you can continue to believe in God if wish to, but nobler is the person who does the right thing, simply because it’s the right thing. And if there is a God, He would be proud for your having done so.

Well, that’s my best shot at convincing you to renounce God. And I know…it didn’t work.

P.S. Belated HAPPY BIRTHDAY to LeLi

No. But it certainly is condescending.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Of course, why atheists frequent CAF at all is baffling, if they are so sure that belief in God is false.

Self identified atheist are not necessarily sure/confident that there is no god/God.