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EnosJadon
Guest
The truth often is, but that doesn’t make it any less the truth.
I believe there is God, I believe Christ was God, persuade me of the benefits of renouncing this belief
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Faithdancer
Guest
I see you haven’t been on CAF long, and / or posted much. There’s nothing in your post that hasn’t been said on CAF 1000 times before, right down to the snarky fairy godmother reference.
Why are you here on CAF, if you’re so sure you know this “truth?”
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inocente
Guest
Suppose you believe heaven is a place beyond the stars where God lives. Some atheists say it is wrong to believe heaven exists, and some Christians say it is wrong to believe that heaven is a place. They may each try to convince you to renounce your belief because they think you are wrong.
But suppose also that you are a mother grieving her dead child, who looks up to heaven and hopes her child is looking back at her. Your belief is integral to your well-being. Some may say you’re childish. They may call you deluded. But it helps you get through the night. And they might be wrong, she might be looking back.
So I would say only renounce your belief if you’re sure she’s not looking back. I mean the truth may be out there, or we may just have evolved to hope it is. As with your faith that Christ is God, you decide, no one can decide for you.
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Faithdancer
Guest
So what need does participation in these forums fill?
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Bradski
Guest
Hello and welcome to the course Lack of Belief.
This weeks lecture will be about atheism. Can everyone hear me at the back? OK, let’s begin.
An atheist is someone who does not believe in gods. Any questions? Thank you. The course notes will be available on line.
Next weeks lecture will be How Do You Actually Know Elvis Is Dead? Followed the week after by JFK And The Magic Bullet, which will be given by Noel D’Grassy (thank you, I’m here all week, try the veal, it’s delicious) and then the final lecture - Did You See That? Something Moved In The Bushes.
Have a nice day.
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EnosJadon
Guest
Like looks, screen names can be deceiving. I’ve been around here a very long time. Much of what I’ve learned about others, about God, and about myself, I’ve learned right here. I’ve learned for example that people believe what they choose to believe, and no amount of reasoning seems able to dissuade them. I can’t say if this is good or bad, but it is the way it is. People have the right to choose, and as disheartened as I may be by that choice, I have to accept it. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t try to change it. And who knows, in the end, the true goal may not be to change you, but simply to change me. If so, mission accomplished, but perhaps not in the manner that you would have hoped.
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Vonsalza
Guest
There seems to be a lot of people here that are Catholic despite Catholicism not being the first station their train stopped at. And there are a few that have defected from the faith.
So I don’t think you’re particularly correct in this fatalistic claim.
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minkymurph
Guest
Dynamo walked on water.So where is the evidence for walking on water? Outside the Bible, of course. Anyone is welcome to chime in.
He also produced dozens of fish from an empty bucket.
Now in Dynamo’s case it was an illusion. In the case of Christ it may also have been an illusion, or a vision in that those who witnessed this event recorded what they believed they saw, but they believed they saw may not have been a factual reality.
Concerning Jesus walking on water - we have no evidence outside Scripture. We have no evidence outside Scripture as only a few of his followers saw this phenomenon. I cooked dinner for my kids this evening. No one saw me do it. My kids were playing football outside when I cooked dinner. I called them when it was on the plate and for this reason they assume I cooked it, but they did not see me actually cook it. No one can know but me as only I witnessed the actual cooking of the dinner. Does this mean there is no evidence I cooked the dinner? I would say yes. Does this mean I did not in fact cook it? No.
Did Jesus actually walk on water? Maybe. Or - it may have been a vision or illusion. It may not in fact have happened at all, and the author records it to make a theological point. The theological point the authors of the Gospels want to make is Christ is God. Supernatural events are attributed to Jesus to endorse his credentials as the Messiah - God Incarnate. You could accuse the authors of the Gospels of making a bad job of this in terms of a 21st century atheists, but to their audience - 1st century Roman citizens, it was not so far fetched.
The audience was first century Roman citizens. Gentile, Jew and others. What would have persuaded them Jesus was divine - the Messiah? Why would the authors of the Gospels have wanted to persuade their audience of this fact? Would they have died for they knew for certain was a lie?
None to this means what they say is true, but it suggests they truly believe what they wrote to their audience. Let us not discount their audience - first century Roman citizens - as gullible fools. We can heap as much criticism on the Gospels, but this criticism does not explain why they wrote what they did and why so many people accepted it.
It can be argued the time for such a belief was right. The ground was sufficiently fertile to receive the belief, but I am not persuaded the authors of the Gospels would risk their lives - which they did - for something they knew was a lie. In other words, they believed what they wrote. It can be argued they were mistaken, but that does not change the fact they believed what they wrote. Why did they believe it? They witnessed events that endorsed the belief, and a belief not previously held and handed down.
This line of reasoning does not prove God exists, but I think it is a sound argument. I am course open to criticism as a persuasive argument is not an argument that convinces oneself, but rather one that persuades others who disagree as to the soundness of your reasoning.
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Faithdancer
Guest
I certainly wouldn’t die for something I knew was false. Yet, as you point out, nearly all the apostles, and many others who witnessed Christ’s life, His miracles and His resurrection–and many who knew these eyewitnesses personally and heard their direct testimony–were martyred for their faith.
The white-robed army of martyrs comprise a rather unassailable body of evidence.
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minkymurph
Guest
This does not mean what they believed was true, but I can’t say I know of anyone who died for something they believed to be false.
In fact, I know many people who would not only not die for something they believed to true, but would not put themselves out to any great extent for something they believed to be true. If one is really committed to what one believes, one would put oneself out.
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Vera_Ljuba
Guest
This is the point.
I was replying to PR’s observation which said: “No Christian should believe without evidence/logic to back it up.” I understand that many people consider the Bible “evidence”, but that brings up the next question: “which parts of the bible should be accepted as evidence”? Obviously some parts have some historical texts to support them, others are parables or allegories. Yet others are plain fiction, fairy tales.
The church should have spent some times to separate the wheat from the chaff… but did not. A few hundred years ago everything was believed to be the exact, precise, historically correct word of God. No “interpretation” was necessary, or tolerated.
So, if one must or “should” believe only the teachings, which have evidence to support them, where does that leave the central assertion of the Catholic faith: “Jesus is God”? If the different “miracles” allegedly performed by Jesus cannot be substantiated with evidence outside the Bible, then you have no evidence. Of course I am always astonished about dragging in the ancient past. Jesus is supposed to be alive today. Let’s see the evidence for his current existence.
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PRmerger
Guest
I can think of a multitude of reasons:
- To learn as a mere curiosity
- To be able to educate oneself so one can refute the arguments of Christians
- Because he is responding to the spark of divine life that was placed there at his baptism
- Because she heard a good Christian apologia once and is looking for some other atheists to offer some refutations for the Christian rationale
- To learn a bit more about why an intellectual giant he really respects has just converted
- To become proficient in the lexicon so he can argue with his coworker more intelligently over lunch
- To discover why her husband remains a Catholic
- To familiarize oneself with the vocabulary so next time his brotherinlaw who’s a bully says that he’s going to hell for being an atheist he can respond with a bit of data for rebuttal
- To separate oneself from the really stupid online 20-something-and-living-in-his-moms-basement-atheists and their uneducated arguments
- To find some stimulating discussion with people who have a different viewpoint
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
There have been threads within this subforum in which atheist voice their motivations for being here. Some of the people that ree in this thread responded in a previous thread.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=995723
Such threads have popped up from time to time, though there is a period in which they are pretty short because atheism was a prohibited topic and such threads would be locked or deleted.
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worldwideweary
Guest
Attempt:
You have yet to experience the fullness of revelation: The Person of God directly, and instead you have succumbed to the temptation with your concupiscent intellectual desires to feel a satisfaction in accepting the time-based messages of man as if to say you now have the fullness of truth via the created order. Why haven’t you stuck through to the end with endurance until the Master provides you with perfect satisfaction sans the created order? Are you that weak and distrusting in God Himself that you must accept messages through the created order when you know that man as a becoming creature is going through a process provided to him as a sign that he must endure with absolute trust in the Non-Contingent, the unknown as of yet, and that he is indirectly commanded to wait lovingly for the truth to be given to him rather than to accept what is handed to him through this valley of darkness by his quote unquote fellows? I’m ashamed that you’ve givin’ in to your desires! Absolute faith requires Absolute Darkness!
No need to respond to this, but it may be possibly worth your time to think about.
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PRmerger
Guest
All Christians who receive the Eucharist experience the Person of God directly.
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worldwideweary
Guest
Who/What gives you the right to speak for all Christians?
Edit: Did Mother Theresa experience the Person of God directly every time she communed?
Quote from (CatholicEducation.org) She only once more heard the voice of God, and she believed the doors of heaven had been closed and bolted against her. The more she longed for some sign of his presence, the more empty and desolate she became.
P.S. She is now deemed a saint according to Catholic sources on-line.
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PRmerger
Guest
My intellect does.
Just like I can say: all people who spell correctly will spell atheist like this: ATHEIST.
And if they spell it like this: ATHIEST, they are mistaken.
I have spoken for all good spellers.
And I don’t apologize for it.
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PRmerger
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worldwideweary
Guest
For clarification purposes, are you saying only some times? Or are you saying the experiencing of the Person of God (Are you admitting non-Catholicism since there are Three Persons?) isn’t directly linked to the moments in time of reception?
What of those who eat or drink unworthily, do they receive? Yet Christians claim “Lord, I am not worthy…”
Again, did Theresa experience the person of God in those times she claimed she didn’t while she continued the reception?
P.S. This has nothing to do with the OP or my reply, thanks for the off-point hi-jack
Makes for interesting conversation, if you can call this that.
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PRmerger
Guest
They receive Him, but they don’t experience Him.
Can you finish the verse?
You’re welcome.
BTW, sarcasm is the protest of the weak, www.
I rarely use it.
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