I can no longer in good conscience identify as Catholic. It's been fun

[QContinuum]

The truth shouldn’t bother you. That’s why protestants care called “protest-ant”. They deny the authority of the Church or any other church to instruct against their own concepts. That’s fundamental.

If you don’t accept that the Church has teaching authority, then of course you would not become Catholic. I think anyone would understand that.

Quite. There are a good number of other things I would need to accept before any of the CC’s claims to authority, principally among them, the existence of God. My point was and is, that the Church does not recognize when someone disavows their faith, is a cautionary flag to someone such as myself. I’m sure that is unsurprising nor is it concerning for those such as yourself. We are all in agreement, hopefully, that an atheist makes for a poor Protestant or Catholic to begin with.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Oh. Well, I am not sure why considering Baptism to be indelible would be distressing. As i understand it, Mormons believe they can baptize my deceased ancestors and undoubtedly have. Since I don’t believe in their church, I’m not bothered by that.

 

[QContinuum]

Oh. Well, I am not sure why considering Baptism to be indelible would be distressing. As i understand it, Mormons believe they can baptize my deceased ancestors and undoubtedly have. Since I don’t believe in their church, I’m not bothered by that.

You may consider it however you like. “Distressing” is your word, and not accurate of my feelings about the subject. I don’t particularly care what Catholics or Mormons believe about their baptism rites. What I am concerned with is the inference that the Church disregards an individual’s stated belief or disbelief.

It’s not clear to me that the CC actually does this, though I do know it will continue to consider any baptized Catholic to be subject to its internal canonical laws regardless of the absence of a person’s own assent. But when it is insisted that the CC has such authority to keep counting as its own those who’ve left, I read that as, “If you convert, you cede to the Church your identity to be recognized as anything but Catholic.” That is notable to me.

 

[Ridgerunner]

What I am concerned with is the inference that the Church disregards an individual’s stated belief or disbelief.

Religions and atheists all do this. I do not accept your beliefs just because you have them. Nor do you (manifestly) accept mine.

 

[QContinuum]

Religions and atheists all do this. I do not accept your beliefs just because you have them. Nor do you (manifestly) accept mine.

I accept that you are a Catholic theist. Do you accept that StudentMI or others who’ve disavowed the CC are no longer Catholic?

 

[rosejmj]

What about someone who is excommunicated? I honestly have heard of Excatholics trying to purposefully get excommunicated because they do not want to be considered part of the church at all

 

[Ridgerunner]

I accept that you are a Catholic theist. Do you accept that StudentMI or others who’ve disavowed the CC are no longer Catholic?

If, indeed, I am a “Catholic theist”, then I am obliged to consider that he still bears the mark of Baptism. But is he a practical Catholic? If he says he isn’t, and acts as if he isn’t, then he isn’t.

 

[Vouthon]

It’s not clear to me that the CC actually does this, though I do know it will continue to consider any baptized Catholic to be subject to its internal canonical laws regardless of the absence of a person’s own assent.

The canon law recognises the possibility of defection from the Catholic faith and communion:

Can. 316 §1. A person who has publicly rejected the Catholic faith, has defected from ecclesiastical communion, or has been punished by an imposed or declared excommunication cannot be received validly into public associations.

Can. 194 §1. The following are removed from an ecclesiastical office by the law itself:

1/ a person who has lost the clerical state;

2/ a person who has publicly defected from the Catholic faith or from the communion of the Church;

3/ a cleric who has attempted marriage even if only civilly.

§2. The removal mentioned in nn. [2] and [3] can be enforced only if it is established by the declaration of a competent authority.

An example of someone having repudiated the faith and it having been recognised by the local bishop, see this letter:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[rosejmj]

I believe his reasons for leaving are because he doesn’t think or know Catholicism is true. Just as you wouldn’t follow a religion that wasn’t true, why would he? I’m sure he has good reasons especially considering he was into studying and discussing related matters

 

[QContinuum]

If, indeed, I am a “Catholic theist”, then I am obliged to consider that he still bears the mark of Baptism. But is he a practical Catholic? If he says he isn’t, and acts as if he isn’t, then he isn’t.

True enough. I cede your point.

 

[rosejmj]

Maybe just the fact that one can’t truly know if Catholicism or Christianity is true in this world. Philosophy and history are very much open to interpretation and can prove nothing. Science is the closest one can get to objective “truth” and yet science can not really be used to find evidence for the divinity of Jesus

 

[Vouthon]

If, indeed, I am a “Catholic theist”, then I am obliged to consider that he still bears the mark of Baptism. But is he a practical Catholic? If he says he isn’t, and acts as if he isn’t, then he isn’t.

Protestants and Orthodox Christians, of course, bear the indelible imprint of baptism on their souls too - but that doesn’t make them Catholics (technically, from a purely juridical standpoint, it makes them ‘schismatics’ or separated brethren as we call them post-Vatican II) because they were never in perfect communion with the Holy See.

It doesn’t matter where or in what context a person is baptised (i.e. in a Presbyterian font), so long as the appropriate formula and intention are present (along with consent of the recipient), a valid baptism is a valid baptism. There are no ‘Catholic’ baptisms versus ‘Protestant’ baptisms. Baptism is just baptism, period.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Maybe just the fact that one can’t truly know if Catholicism or Christianity is true in this world.

I presume by your statement you mean we can’t scientifically prove it. That’s correct, we cannot scientifically prove Jesus was divine etc.

However, we can certainly know that Christianity and Catholicism are true, through the grace of God and with no scientific analysis needed. Scientific knowledge is not the only form of knowledge out there.

 

[DisorientingSneeze]

My point was and is, that the Church does not recognize when someone disavows their faith, is a cautionary flag to someone such as myself.

That is an interesting point. To an outside observer it is like you in a moment of weakness bought some tea tree oil from a multi-level marketing essential oil lady and somehow became part of her downline. Then when you explain you want off the books, terminate the account, she says well no. Just don’t buy anything else if you don’t want to but your account exists FOREVER. Having been in that particular situation I suppose I sympathize.

While we can acknowledge that it might look that way, we can’t do anything about it other than do a better job of how we talk about it. On our end the indelible mark on your soul cannot be deleted.

You can officially remove yourself as a member of the parish. So that might feel like an official step and a chance to declare why for someone desiring to.

 

[CelticWarlord]

I’m undecided if I’ll continue posting.

I’m not Catholic and never have been. But I love this forum and hope you’ll stick around. Please let me tell you a brief story of my life of about 15 years ago. At that point I had decided I was a non-Christian and “identified” as such. Yet at that time I found and became a member of an evangelical forum on Delphi and became a trusted and regular contributor. My reasoning was that, although I called myself a non-Christian, I still spoke the language fluently and ought to help along those who wanted and could benefit from my experiences and my knowledge of Christianity and scripture. So without making a big deal of things, and completely devoid of regular “reminders” that I was not of their faith, I settled in and made a number of very close friends. That forum is long since defunct but I stay in touch with four of the members to this day. So keep in mind that even when one departs from the faith, they still have a tremendous amount to offer in a community like this.

Best to you,
CW

 

[Daisy]

You were identifying as a Catholic …
and
“It’s been fun” ???

I am so confused.

Or was it the forum that was fun? Hmph.

 

[Neithan]

Yeah that does seem strangely flippant.

 

[Neithan]

It’s a subtle distinction. If knowledge is defined by separating the sources and objects of truth, then the twofold order of natural and supernatural truths are possible for us to know; but we can only obtain the supernatural truths with certainty by faith. So the certainty is contingent, and therefore vulnerable to a loss of faith (present case exemplified). If knowledge is broadly defined (as it usually is in common sense) meaning both sources and objects of truth obtained by our rational powers, then we cannot rationally know what we know by faith. If that makes sense. Of course a die-hard skeptic will doubt that we can know anything at all.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

You’re way ahead of me. I am a dim bear when it comes to philosophy.

I just know I myself don’t need a scientific proof to know it’s Jesus up on the altar at Mass. I realize this is a gift/ grace that God has chosen to give me. Or maybe I’m just not the questioning sort, I don’t see how questioning that would be of any benefit whatsoever.

 

[DeniseNY]

Also, one point of this forum is to encourage our brothers and sisters in the faith when they stumble. Not come charging onto threads as a non- Catholic or fallen away Catholic and make it sound like leaving the Church in the face of all these bothersome over technical Catholics is the correct thing to do.

This is a forum for defending the faith, not for atheists or whoever to try to undermine or put down, however subtly, the Catholic conversions of others or the Catholic faith of others. This isn’t some kind of a nondenominational discussion forum.

Well said, tis