I can no longer in good conscience identify as Catholic. It's been fun

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Vouthon said:
As such, he should be respectfully recognised as whatever he now identifies himself as being (should he profess some other belief system now), the irrevocable spiritual imprint of his baptism notwithstanding.
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What he is is a Catholic.
 
Montrose said:
What he is is a Catholic.
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No, what he is, is baptized but no longer professing the faith. He no longer professes the faith or participates in its sacramental life, which means that he is not of the soul or body of the church. This ‘particular union consists in the profession of the one faith’.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Respectfully, the OP was so anxious to be Catholic that he not only received all the sacraments of initiation once, but TWICE after he found out the first go-round was not valid. And that was just within the last couple weeks. It’s like someone who gets married, found out later the marriage wasn’t valid, instead of walking away gets another license and gets married again, and then the next week wants a divorce.
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Yes, this is why I expressed concern about what’s going on with his internal wrestling rather than arguing whether it’s allowed for him to wear another team’s jersey. I agree it seems to be a radical departure from character.
Tis_Bearself said:
As for you not liking the substance of the discussion, as someone pointed out the Catholic Church is more authoritarian than Protestants are used to, and we’re also not in the business if appeasing Protestants, or making our threads in a Catholic forum some kind of appealing marketing. In my experience, people who need to be catered to in that way to get them to join the Church are likely to just quit the first time they get told no, you can’t do something, or no, the priest/ bishop/ Pope has the final say here, so it’s a waste of effort trying to appeal to Protestants like yourself.
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I agree again that the CC is authoritarian and not appealing to people such as myself. I am not a Protestant though, as I am a unbeliever altogether. Also, I have come across extremely authoritarian Protestant sects that I believe are much more controlling than the CC. I would consider them cults, in fact.
Tis_Bearself said:
also think the adjectives you use in your post are disrespectful to the Church and to other posters.
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This you will need to quote, because I did not use any adjectives to describe the church or other posters here.
 
Vouthon said:
No, what he is, is baptized but no longer professing the faith. He no longer professes the faith or participates in its sacramental life, which means that he is not of the soul or body of the church. This ‘ particular union consists in the profession of the one faith ’.
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NO, he will be a Catholic in a state of mortal sin.
 
Understandable. As an atheists, I wouldn’t expect you to be concerned with Salvation, as understood from a Catholic perspective.

As you stated, @StudentMI has come to the point where he no longer chooses to believe in the Catholic Church. You and I do acknowledge the seriousness of his choosing to leave his faith, albeit for different reasons.

And yes, as much as I would have preferred to have had him reach out for help before he left, his mind was made up.

As a Catholic I’m always concerned when Catholics chose to leave the Church. Especially, if it concerns errors or inaccuracies about doctrine.
 
Montrose said:
NO, he will be a Catholic in a state of mortal sin.
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You are not at liberty to judge the state of his soul or of any other person. The church declares certain acts to be (objectively) “grave matter” but none, save God, can penetrate to the psychological depths of a person to judge their ‘subjective’ culpability (whether the act constitutes mortal sin).

In terms of this point about him being ‘Catholic’, he is not Catholic any longer. Unbaptised catechumens are Catholic (“of the faith” and “soul” of the Church), whereas he is no longer of the body of the Church because he has not continued in the profession of the faith and has broken communion with the church by his decision to publicly cease professing the faith.

Pope Innocent III, concerning a priest who had died without ever receiving water baptism:
POPE INNOCENT III (1206)

Apostolicam:
To your inquiry we respond thus: We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the priest whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the faith of Holy Mother the Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joy of the heavenly fatherland
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You can be ‘of the faith’ without baptism (because you profess it but are going through catechesis in preparation for the reception of the sacrament) and ‘not of the faith’ though baptised (by no longer professing the faith that your vows at baptism bound you to believe). Obviously, Catholics who are of the soul and body of the church (perfect members) are baptised and profess the faith.
 
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Rau said:
No - it demonstrates we were not better in days past than certain developing countries nowadays.
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Actually I think for the most part we were. One can say in the past there was insufficient time to do as much damage as is the case now. One can say there was no Soviet Union or Communist China in the U.S. or Europe in the past. They are undoubtedly the worst offenders when it comes to land management. Also, our drylands had better “luck” in some ways in that the massive cultivation that went on in the early 20th Century didn’t last all that long.

But it seems to me an optimistic view ought to be taken. If this country, including drylands, can remediate the effects of mismanagement, then with other countries it’s more a matter of the will to apply proper management than anything else. Better management pays off in the long run.
 
Montrose said:
As a sacramentally baptised Catholic he remains a Catholic forever, no matter what you say.
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It’s interesting that you will listen neither to St. Robert Bellarmine (Doctor of the Church) or Pope Pius XII, nor - I must presume - to any other authoritative source that I may cite.

As such, I respect your opinion even though it is “technically” theological wrong.
 
If you’re an atheist, then that’s even less reason for concern over how we present the Church to you. Protestants often love God and want to worship him but have some disagreement with Catholics over practice or teaching. Atheists, by contrast, just threw God entirely in the trash bin. As for your post, if you can’t see how words like “banal” and so forth in the way you used them, as well as your patronizing tone (we get that from atheists regularly) are offensive on a Catholic forum, then you are just being willfully blind. Good day.
 
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QContinuum said:
Not a Protestant either. Atheist will do. I had an interest in converting to Catholicism years ago. Thus, why I came to CAF. Your comment confirms one reason I will remain non-Catholic.
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Don’t go blaming your own failings and lack of faith on posters here. I suspect based on your posts that he could talk just as sweet as pie and you still wouldn’t come back to the Church.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Atheists, by contrast, just threw God entirely in the trash bin. As for your post, if you can’t see how words like “banal” and so forth in the way you used them, as well as your patronizing tone (we get that from atheists regularly) are offensive on a Catholic forum, then you are just being willfully blind. Good day.
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I have responded to you with nothing but a respectful tone. In return, I receive hostility. I don’t expect your church to cater to me, but I appreciate at least a civil tone. I doubt at this point it will make any difference to your clear contempt of me, but the word “banal” was applied to the “argument” not any single poster. As in, whether you, or I, or anyone else presented the same argument, it would still be unoriginal nor convincing. Meaning, irrespective of persons presenting it.

Is criticism of debate still permitted here?

Also, I did not “throw away” anyone, God or otherwise into the dustbin. I cannot throw away what I cannot find.

Also, I don’t come here to be catered to, I come here because the discussion is generally intelligent and the CC, despite having some drawbacks in my opinion - such as authoritarianism - also has positives, such as music, art, and an impressive intellectual heritage.

But I take your message that my (name removed by moderator)ut is unwanted and unwelcome in this discussion, so I will bow out.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
suspect based on your posts that he could talk just as sweet as pie and you still wouldn’t come back to the Church.
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Again, I am not and never have been a member of the Catholic Church. At one point, I was a curious Episcopalian, and came to CAF to investigate. I have since renounced my faith. Just want to make that clear, as there seems to be confusion on that point.

Good day.
 
Rau said:
No - it demonstrates we were not better in days past than certain developing countries nowadays.
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Depends on what and where you’re talking about. There was nowhere near the devastation in this country that presently exists and is ongoing in Russian Central Asia and in north China.

But countries that have never developed their resources properly still can reverse the damage. Even Russia and China could if they would.
 
I don’t think it’s fair to assume any malice on the part of @QContinuum.

To address the issue of @StudentMI no longer choosing to identify as Catholic; what good does it do to inform them that they are in fact still Catholic? It seems arbitrary to suggest such a technicality, as it has no bearing on his Salvation nor does it address what issues drove them to leave in the first place.

This is how I understood the post by @QContinuum.

On one hand you have Catholics mentioning that @StudentMI is still technically a Catholic. As if, according to our understanding of Salvation, that even matters.

And on the other hand, even to non-Catholics, this issue of still technically labeling someone a Catholic after one leaves, seems more like a spiteful way of saying, “It doesn’t matter if you leave, you’re still that which you disagree with!”

Which could only further push someone into feeling that their reasons for leaving the Church are further justified.
 
Crusader13 said:
what good does it do to inform them that they are in fact still Catholic? It seems arbitrary to suggest such a technicality
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It’s stating a fact.
If he doesn’t care, he’s free to ignore what I said.
Indeed, it seems like other posters on here are more bothered about it than he is.

Also, one point of this forum is to encourage our brothers and sisters in the faith when they stumble. Not come charging onto threads as a non- Catholic or fallen away Catholic and make it sound like leaving the Church in the face of all these bothersome over technical Catholics is the correct thing to do.

This is a forum for defending the faith, not for atheists or whoever to try to undermine or put down, however subtly, the Catholic conversions of others or the Catholic faith of others. This isn’t some kind of a nondenominational discussion forum.
 
Crusader13 said:
To address the issue of @StudentMI no longer choosing to identify as Catholic; what good does it do to inform them that they are in fact still Catholic? It seems arbitrary to suggest such a technicality, as it has no bearing on his Salvation nor does it address what issues drove them to leave in the first place.

This is how I understood the post by @QContinuum.
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Thank you, sir. For anyone who might wonder at my point-of-view, you’ve summed up my thoughts exactly. As stated before, I’m not interested in furthering this particular discussion, because it’s frankly a detraction from StudentMI’s first post. But I wanted to express appreciation for your post.
 
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@Crusader13

As you say: it’s an arbitrary fact inserted at an arbitrary time.

Win an argument. Lose a soul. This thread isn’t an exception. It has gradually become the new normal.
 
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QContinuum said:
Your comment confirms one reason I will remain non-Catholic.
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The truth shouldn’t bother you. That’s why protestants care called “protest-ant”. They deny the authority of the Church or any other church to instruct against their own concepts. That’s fundamental.

If you don’t accept that the Church has teaching authority, then of course you would not become Catholic. I think anyone would understand that.
 
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