"I cannot wait to debunk Christianity" from a student

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thomasjj70

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I am a parish 8th Grade Religious Education Teacher. We pass out anonymous surveys at the beginning of the year to determine where our students are in their faith. We usually receive about 4-5(out of 30 students) that they struggle-don’t believe in God because of science. We try to plant seeds throughout the year on this topic.

After every class the students turn in an anonymous index card;
  1. What we could have done better.
  2. What they liked.
  3. How they would make it better
  4. An opportunity to ask a question.
A few classes ago, we received an index card from a student that asked; what proof do you have that God Exists. Likely more of a challenge than anything else, but I thought it to be an excellent opportunity to introduce them to some basic philosophical proofs for the existence of God.

I chose the following vides as they were simple and I thought they introduced the arguments well:
  • The Kalam Cosmological Argument and the video by Dr. Craig:
  • The Fine-Tuning Argument and a video by Dr. Craig:
Overall the discussion was fantastic, the feedback from the students was universally positive. At a very high-level, we discussed the weaknesses of the arguments.

As an example, in the Cosmological Argument, the video’s Conclusion is God. One of the students asked, does it really need to be God. I said that is an excellent observation, and that is oftentimes an objection to the conclusion. I then said logically speaking, I would move that discussion upon hearing that objection to a discussion on what would be the properties or the attributes of that something that could create the Universe, and me being a Catholic, those attributes are very similar to attributes of God.

One of the index-card feedbacks that I received after class stated, “I cannot wait to debunk Christianity”. I am questioning whether to respond to it or let it die on the vine. I am more inclined to think this is a Childish tantrum of sorts, remembering this is a public school educated 8th Grader, poorly catechized, who with all likelihood is forced to attend religious education and is deeply resentful of that, to begin with.
  • I am thinking of highlighting how all our approaches should be an approach for truth, that we are Catholics and are called not to follow things blindly.
  • I also was thinking that this statement indicates perhaps a goal that might not be the pursuit of truth, but to confirm one’s preconceived opinions.
  • That it is my experience that when one believes they have philosophical debunked something, oftentimes they have debunked a caricature(straw man) and not the real premice.
I just thought I would post and get some opinions,

God Bless and thank you for your feedback and advice,

Thank God for Thomas Aquinas LOL !!!

Tom
 
thomasjj70 said:
One of the students asked, does it really need to be God
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One thing that bothered me when I was a Deist/practical atheist was that Christian’s would bring up these proofs and then sit back and say, so now you have to accept Jesus in your heart.

I believe the proofs lead to belief in a First Cause or something like that, but then one needs to continue to why Christianity is true.
 
I absolutely agree I have left out discussions that occurred prior to and after these proofs. I listen to the ClassicalTheism Podcast, and the author precisely makes your point in one of the episodes. That it is important not to just lead with this proofs, or end the discussion there.

I did explain to the students that I am hardly presenting to them a full treatise on the topic, and I think i will quickly revisit the point you made because it is quite important to make it.

I actually think you have provided me a great method to answer this student’s objection. Affirming his objection and then pulling it back into the deeper question of why Christianity is true.

Thanks, and you rock!!!

God Bless
 
It’s 8th grade, one of them probably said it on a dare or to get cool points with friends. Keep having discussions and realize not everyone’s path reaches the same end at the same time.

The thing about debunking anything is you have to understand it really well first. If the student is genuine, they may very well be one of the most attentive students.
 
Dan123 said:
It’s 8th grade, one of them probably said it on a dare or to get cool points with friends.
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An 8th grader is probably at least 13. I know several people who have been atheists all their lives, at least since age 13, particularly if their parents were atheists and brought them up without any exposure to religious belief of any kind.
 
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This is all in a Catholic parochial school that they’re asking these questions? I’m not that old but back in my day, this would have called for an intervention with the parents, priest, and student.

Then again, from the way it read to me I put this up to a childish 8th grade tantrum. Probably whichever student is either the most quietest or is the disheveled/loudmouth/ne’er do well looking type.
 
SteelArchangel said:
This is all in a Catholic parochial school that they’re asking these questions? I’m not that old but back in my day, this would have called for an intervention with the parents, priest, and student.
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How do you do that with an anonymous response though? Even if you track down which kid you’ve obliterated the purpose of the anonymous feedback.
 
Sooner or later, someone cracks. Be it the kid, parents, or the kid says something to the teacher. This would require a sit-down.

The crux of the issue is a student…in a Catholic School…hates it with their every fiber in their body so much so that they imply a lifelong pursuit into destroying it. I think a vicious attitude like that trumps staying anonymous on some survey. That’s a LOT of hate and venom to have.
 
8th graders? I’m pretty sure that the student in question is trying to be cool. Very immature.
 
SteelArchangel said:
This is all in a Catholic parochial school that they’re asking these questions? I’m not that old but back in my day, this would have called for an intervention with the parents, priest, and student.

Then again, from the way it read to me I put this up to a childish 8th grade tantrum. Probably whichever student is either the most quietest or is the disheveled/loudmouth/ne’er do well-looking type.
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This is not a parochial school, these are public school children.

Students who attend mass weekly and have active families in the Church are easily identifiable. I would say that it is about half of the class.

The rest of the students receive little or no catechesis outside of my class, rarely attend mass. Most of the children have been indoctrinated since kindergarten in public school ideologies. Several are from broken homes, and to be honest, have an ax to grind with God, which I can understand given their circumstances at times.

In general, I am trying to build bridges and plant seeds for these kids.

We do things anonymously because it is my experience that a student would not be honest about some of these topics unless we did. It is critical we understand where they are coming from, to build those bridges in an non-confrontational way.

I hope my explanation helps…
 
Sorry I must have misread. Unfortunately if it’s public school, then it’s a lost cause. In fact, I actually marvel that there’s even a religion class there to begin with. They’ve taken them all out here.
 
GraceJ said:
8th graders? I’m pretty sure that the student in question is trying to be cool. Very immature.
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I totally agree the males in 8th grade are certifiably nuts at times, it certainly livens the class. 🙂
 
SteelArchangel said:
The crux of the issue is a student…in a Catholic School…hates it with their every fiber in their body so much so that they imply a lifelong pursuit into destroying it. I think a vicious attitude like that trumps staying anonymous on some survey. That’s a LOT of hate and venom to have.
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I think you’re inferring an awful lot of hate from a single sentence from an 8th grader.

Telling someone the form is anonymous and then tracking them down to punish them is lying to them. Think about the reasons people feel comfortable confessing and why the church protects that so vigorously. Think about what would happen if things people told their priest started finding their way into common knowledge.
 
SteelArchangel said:
In fact, I actually marvel that there’s even a religion class there to begin with. They’ve taken them all out here.
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It’s not super uncommon to have a religious studies class where students study various world religions. Kids are exposed to them and may seek one further on their own, but the class itself isn’t meant to evangelize. I’m not sure if that’s what we’re discussing here, just wanted to add there are places for religious and even bible study in public schools.
 
SteelArchangel said:
Sorry I must have misread. Unfortunately, if it’s public school, then it’s a lost cause. In fact, I actually marvel that there’s even a religion class there to begin with. They’ve taken them all out here.
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Well, this program operates out of my Parish(Church). I don’t think it is a lost cause, but it is certainly an uphill battle on a sheet of ice… 🤣
 
Tom,
Thank you for your ministry. To often 8th grade religious education reduces to fun and games. Fun and games are important but so is the truths of our complicated faith. You are planting seeds for the Holy Spirit to nurture as the youth grows in wisdom and strength. Thank you very much!!
 
From an 8th grader (they’re 13 or 14 yos, right ? I’m not in the US) I’d let that go until the next time. When that next time comes, I would try and address his remarks as seriously as I can, also admitting where I have no satisfying answer should that case occur. I’d prefer a teenager to say that in front of the class rather than writing it on a card, because, at least, it would provide have a context to work with (what triggered that remark) and show that there is something which resonates deep enough in him that he’s willing to say it in front of others.

(Or maybe US teens are generally more communicative than Swiss teens ? I’m more used to the kind of which I’m so proud to elicit one sentence.)

Unless he’s just trying to turn the class into a mess and being gratuitously provocative, in which case it’s a whole other tune.
 
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