"I cannot wait to debunk Christianity" from a student

  • Thread starter Thread starter thomasjj70
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you look above…I admit to misreading. I originally thought this was in a Catholic school, and it’s not. Apparently it’s in a public school.

There’s nothing wrong with using an anonymous form in class. The issue is the student doesn’t have musings, wonder, innocuous questions…they can’t wait to prove that Jesus Christ is a fraud. That right there is a huge, huge sign of trouble if they’re at all serious. What’s to stop them from entering a Catholic Church, stealing a consecrated Host, and vandalizing it on social media to back up their claims?
 
thomasjj70 said:
I totally agree the males in 8th grade are certifiably nuts at times, it certainly livens the class.
Click to expand...
🤣 👍

The thing that comes to mind, though, is that 8th grade is right around the age for the Sacrament of Confirmation.

Have these students been Confirmed? Will they be confirmed next year?

There’s the potential, if this wasn’t merely an act of pre-teen bravado, that this may be a red flag that there’s someone in your class might need extra prep as confirmation approaches…
 
No, religious courses like what you teach are well and good. I applaud you for doing it and you must indeed have the patience of Job to deal with what I’m sure is a flurry of emotion at times 🙃
 
People - some of them very brilliant people - have been trying to debunk Christianity for some centuries now.

They have failed and will always fail.

Truth cannot be debunked.
 
Gorgias said:
40.png
thomasjj70:
I totally agree the males in 8th grade are certifiably nuts at times, it certainly livens the class.
Click to expand...
🤣 👍

The thing that comes to mind, though, is that 8th grade is right around the age for the Sacrament of Confirmation.

Have these students been Confirmed? Will they be confirmed next year?

There’s the potential, if this wasn’t merely an act of pre-teen bravado, that this may be a red flag that there’s someone in your class might need extra prep as confirmation approaches…
Click to expand...
But in some corners, they will object that kids should “get the sacraments” whether they are making an intentional choice or not, and let the sacraments work in them.
And the parents dovetail nicely with that philosophy, because if the kids can “get the sacraments” and the sacraments give them grace for heaven, the parents’ responsibility is to get the groceries during catechesis (which is all outside of Mass anyway) and pick them up afterwards.

This is seriously the real state of affairs for 80% of Catholic school attendees.
Extra prep is not going to fix this problem.
 
Last edited:
Gorgias said:
Have these students been Confirmed? Will they be confirmed next year?
Click to expand...
Most of the parish’s in my area are 8th grade, but my church does it in 10th grade. My experience is that these doubts on the belief in God manifest themselves in 7th & 8th grade.

The gentleman in my church that teaches 10th grade has a degree in physics and puts the whole Science vs God Myth to bed rather abruptly.

We normally have about five atheists/agnostics in 10th grade, about the same we encounter in 8th, so this year I was hoping to plant seeds and spark some discussions. Not to discount serious arguments on the existance of God, at the 8th grade level, they truly believe they have an indepth knowledge on matters, it really doesn’t matter what that topic is, it is a bit commical. I think that is a sign of one’s maturity, most especially with teenagers, is the realization that there is so much more we don’t know compared to what we know.
 
goout said:
But in some corners, they will object that kids should “get the sacraments” whether they are making an intentional choice or not, and let the sacraments work in them.
And the parents dovetail nicely with that philosophy, because if the kids can “get the sacraments” and the sacraments give them grace for heaven, the parents’ responsibility is to get the groceries during catechesis (which is all outside of Mass anyway) and pick them up afterwards.

This is seriously the real state of affairs for 80% of Catholic school attendees.
Extra prep is not going to fix this problem.
Click to expand...
What you have posted is precisely my experience. I can’t help but think the difference maker is an active participateion at the parish level by both parents including the children. The families I observe like this are on fire and it is truly awesome to witness…
 
CoffeeFanatic said:
If Baptism, Chrismation/Confirmation, and Communion were all done in infancy, with the parents dedicated to actually raising their kids in the faith, it really wouldn’t be as big of a problem. I, honestly, do NOT understand how Chrismation can be separated by countless years from Baptism and Communion. It’s a huge disservice to children.
Click to expand...
I was waiting for this comment to be posted. LOL… I don’t disagree with you at all, but I do think if we do not make our parish’s the focal point of our lives, which in most of my life it has not been, I just don’t think we will see the results that we want. 🙏
 
SteelArchangel said:
The crux of the issue is a student…in a Catholic School…hates it with their every fiber in their body so much so that they imply a lifelong pursuit into destroying it. I think a vicious attitude like that trumps staying anonymous on some survey. That’s a LOT of hate and venom to have.
Click to expand...
You are jumping to some pretty outrageous conclusions, there. Who said anything aout hate? I wouldn’t assume the kid hates anything. He probably just doesn’t believe. There is no venom there. He may just be being truthful. He can’t wait until he is old enough and knows enough to be able to debunk what he is suspicious about right now. What he is being taught right now, may seem more of a myth to him than anything else. That doesn’t mean he has any hatred at all.

Please don’t jump to those kinds of conclusions. It is a very negative thing to do.
 
Last edited:
There is a story that Napoleon met with the Pope and said something to the effect of ‘I will destroy the Church’. To which the Pope replied ‘well, our own Cardinals haven’t managed it, what makes you think you will succeed?’

It’s a good one for any would-be debunker of Christianity to ponder.
 
Last edited:
CoffeeFanatic said:
If Baptism, Chrismation/Confirmation, and Communion were all done in infancy, with the parents dedicated to actually raising their kids in the faith, it really wouldn’t be as big of a problem. I, honestly, do NOT understand how Chrismation can be separated by countless years from Baptism and Communion. It’s a huge disservice to children.
Click to expand...
I respectfully disagree completely. I think the problem is the fact that sacraments are taken without the actual full intentional consent of participant or family, and that paradigm has us in the spot we are currently in. It’s spiritual consumerism.

I think we need to move to a sacramental order that is less automatic check-offs, because human beings are not automatons and faith is not going to happen by accident, even with sacramental grace.
 
Last edited:
SteelArchangel said:
There’s nothing wrong with using an anonymous form in class. The issue is the student doesn’t have musings, wonder, innocuous questions…they can’t wait to prove that Jesus Christ is a fraud. That right there is a huge, huge sign of trouble if they’re at all serious. What’s to stop them from entering a Catholic Church, stealing a consecrated Host, and vandalizing it on social media to back up their claims?
Click to expand...
If that were to happen, then the person doing the sacrilege to the Eucharist would have to believe it is the Body and Blood and Soul and Divinity of Christ.
 
Being Orthodox, I have directly seen the opposite of what you’re saying (and I know Eastern Catholics see this as well). We don’t separate the sacraments. When parents and godparents actively raise their children in the faith, then a child that has been Baptized, Confirmed, and Communed in infancy tends to grow up to be an adult that consents and participates in their own faith and takes it seriously when they are able to reason for themselves. Little children LOVE the Eucharist. Little children ADORE venerating icons and being active participants. The separation of the sacraments has been a huge disservice to people.

ETA: How many Catholics have I known that see Confirmation as a rite of passage related to age. They get Confirmed and then leave the Catholic Church because they’ve done all the things.
 
Last edited:
CoffeeFanatic said:
…
When parents and godparents actively raise their children in the faith,
…
Click to expand...
That’s the crux of it right there. If parents are actively participating in and passing on the faith, grace is fruitful.
If not, the sacraments become occasions for empty superstition, or photo ops.

I’m serious: in our local US Catholic school, about 80% of the families are not practicing Catholics, but almost all “get the sacraments”. I hate to be negative but it’s sacrilegious.
 
Last edited:
The only thing I will offer is the student has chosen their path and this is a public school, other than prayer for discernment and intervention there is really nothing you can do about it. As an educator you can exude your Faith through actions, but again everyone has free will. Especially in the public school realm where in most states there is no exposure to religion. Can he ever debunk Christianity? Well, that statement itself is logically flawed; religion is a concept that can’t be debunked because it doesn’t rely on the scientific method.

So, again, he may change his mind one day but that is his life path and for most people it’s a long one. I know my mentor and High School AP Teacher who later on became a friend taught us a lot about religion and values without ever mentioning it just through the simple process of teaching us logic and rhetoric. He is not a Catholic but an Evangelical. There is pretty much nothing new under the sun when it comes to arguments and secularism. We as Catholics have to accept that not everyone will get it and not feel threatened but pray for them and exude our Faith and Values to show why we benefit from the teaching.
 
Again, just to point out how illogical his statement is: it’s like saying, “I can’t wait to debunk politics.” It’s a Non-sequitur, the two don’t fit in the same sentence.

But this kid may be an otherwise good kid, getting great grades but like most who choose this path just wants to be smart. Inherent in most atheists is Social Darwinism where smart determines status in society. Well, I was in GATE (Gifted and Talented Education) and I can tell you IQ is just a measurement of pattern recognition through a given framework. And by the nature of the Bell Curve, 95% of the population is within average. Also, while I wouldn’t qualify for MENSA because they only take the top 2% looking into it these people are no more successful, happier or wiser than anyone else. At times I’ve even seen it as a sort of disability where the brain is burning out with intensity and they can’t see the broader view (the forest for the trees).

So, again, it is the way of the world. Last Sundays mass discussed not giving into to the ways of the world. It was in the second reading through Paul’s writings. The ways of the world have been with us since the beginning. This kid may end up being the next Jeff Bezos for all I know but that doesn’t make his views valid. I wouldn’t want to be Jeff Bezos, there is nothing he has that I want other than a good platform for shopping with reliable delivery. But again, to the atheist that is the calculus they make. I’m not one to condemn. I can only hope and pray for discernment, revelation and that any good hearted soul can enter the Kingdom of God.
 
CoffeeFanatic said:
If Baptism, Chrismation/Confirmation, and Communion were all done in infancy
Click to expand...
Canon law directs that “[t]o receive confirmation licitly outside the danger of death requires that a person who has the use of reason be suitably instructed, properly disposed, and able to renew the baptismal promises.” So, while valid, it would only be licit if the person has reached the age of reason.
CoffeeFanatic said:
When parents and godparents actively raise their children in the faith, then a child that has been Baptized, Confirmed, and Communed in infancy tends to grow up to be an adult that consents and participates in their own faith and takes it seriously
Click to expand...
So, the salient issue isn’t when confirmation takes place, but whether the parents take care to raise the child in the faith?

Wouldn’t your statement be just as valid if we said “when parents actively raise their children in the faith, then a child that has been baptized in infancy, received Eucharist as a child, and Confirmed as a teen, tends to grow up to be an adult [who] consents and participates in their own faith and takes it seriously”? Or are you asserting that the order and timing matters? And if so, then why?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top