I can't accept the Church's teachings on Eros

[Dale_M]

Attraction is not always bad. Lust is:
Catholic Encyclopedia of 1907:

The inordinate craving for, or indulgence of, the carnal pleasure which is experienced in the human organs of generation.

Yes, lust is the inordinate craving for carnal pleasure. Eros, on the other hand, is carnal love. Carnal love is natural to man and is properly expressed in marriage.

Carnal love is not a bad thing, properly expressed.

 

[strngrnrth]

Yes, lust is the inordinate craving for carnal pleasure. Eros, on the other hand, is carnal love. Carnal love is natural to man and is properly expressed in marriage.

But what is carnal love? Aren’t love and carnality opposites?

 

[Dale_M]

But what is carnal love? Aren’t love and carnality opposites?

I don’t think so - not if properly expressed.

 

[rwoehmke]

I may be off topic here so I’ll expect no one to answer me. But how is *all *lust bad? Without any lust whatsoever how can a male come to an erection and *perform *in the bedroom with his wife? Isn’t that feeling/sensation given to us by God? And I understand it’s meant to be for bonding and offspring. Yet if there is no lust AT ALL how can you have sex, bond, or procreate?

I know lust is generally bad, like taking in too much alcohol, and can lead to emptiness and very horrid sins, but the right amount I can’t find fault with. Wouldn’t make sense, naturally and scientifically the way our bodies are made up.

Or am I totally misunderstanding everything here?

I think that the term lust is only appropriate when there is no love and one or more partners or an individual are using themselves or others as an object for sexual gratification with little or no concern for the other. Sexual relations outside of marriage are perhaps a whole nother story. Love does not justify that. I am of the opinion that most of us moderns do not really comprehend the meaning of many rather ordinary words used in the English language. Then there are those words that when one picks up an unabridged dictionary has a dozen or more shades of meaning and one takes a risk of being misunderstood when using it.

I am curious about one thing. What causes some people to find the notion of sexual intercourse, even when properly practiced, disgusting? I could speculate on this an still be miles from thr mark, so I won’t.

 

[strngrnrth]

I am curious about one thing. What causes some people to find the notion of sexual intercourse, even when properly practiced, disgusting? I could speculate on this an still be miles from thr mark, so I won’t.

All I can tell you is I’ve spent hundreds or maybe thousands of hours of my life trying not to be disgusted by it, since it’s an expectation, and the harder I try thhe more disgusting I find it. This was true in the old days and it’s true now that I’m a Christian and have decided to be chaste. It was disgusting when it was fun and when it wasn’t. It was disgusting in the abstract and in progress. It was disgusting with people I liked and people I didn’t like. It was disgusting, drunk, sober, and high. It was disgusting as a ritual. It was always that way. I have tried philosophizing, intellectualizing, getting a little higher, and pretending. All I know is how I feel and I feel better being myself than pretending.

 

[Seumas]

I’m not that familiar with the topic but on a quick reading I would say that the Encyclical is a bit confusing.

The original meaning of the word “eros” was “lust”.

But the Pope is using the term to mean “marital love”.

Actually, my understanding is that in the Greek it referred to sexual love in general. Sexual love does not necessarily equal lust, which is a selfish desire for sex, without the desire to give of oneself. It views the other not as a person, but as the means to gratify their urges.

Sexual love, in it’s properly ordered form, is the marital act, including healthy sexual desire as well as the desire to give oneself to the beloved, and includes both the strengthening of the marital bond and the life giving aspect.

You see, there are two aspects to sexual love–the physical desire, which is morally neutral in itself, and the intellectual desire that goes with it (which includes the emotions, if they are properly subject to the will). This desire of the will is what gives sexual love it’s moral character–it can be the desire to selfishly gratify the physical urge, with little concern for the other, for love, or for life. This is lust, and it an take place both inside or outside marriage. Or it can be the desire to give oneself to the other totally, to strengthen the bond of love, and to bring new life into the world. This is true sexual love, and can only properly take place inside of marriage.

My take on it is that proper sexual love mirrors the desire of God to be united with us, and us to Him, and the actual union, which for most of us will take place in heaven, but for some souls, like St. Teresa of Jesus, takes place in this life through God’s grace and through contemplative prayer.

Agape, which is the self sacrificing love that desires the good of the other, mirrors God’s love for us, which caused Him to empty Himself and become man, and then be sacrificed on a cross for us; and the love which we should have for God which puts Him above all things, seeks only His honor and Glory, and desires to do His will and avoid sin not to avoid punishment, but to please Him. A person truly in love with God, in fact, would sooner die, or suffer any torture, rather than displease Him.

Often, because of the sexual disorder that thrives in the world, people develop a sort of pathology about sex in which they are repelled by it. Sex is deeply rooted in their minds as something dirty, sinful, wrong, gross, because that is the only way they have experienced or seen it. In this world we are, unfortunately, immersed in dirty, sinful, wrong and gross sex. Often such people have been in disordered sexual relationships, or have been abused, raped, or the like. Even when they find out the truth that it is a gift from God which has as its purpose the strengthening of the marital union and the giving of new life, they still have a hard time getting past their feelings. Their hearts have essentially been poisoned by exposure to the sin in the world.

They way to counteract it is to keep praying about it, since such deep seated feelings need grace to be healed. It probably won’t happen immediately, but if you keep at it and have a real desire to understand, God will come through for you. Trust Him. Ask the Mother of God for help and guidance. There is no one better to teach us about authentic love and purity, and there is no more powerful intercessor either. Also, keep studying the issue from good sources like the Holy Father. Pope John Paul II’s “Theology of the Body” is very helpful, too. Christopher West has written a book to help ordinary folks understand the Theology of the Body better, called “Theology of the Body for Beginners,” which can be found here:

amazon.com/Theology-Body-Beginners-Christopher-West/dp/1932645349/ref=sip_rech_dp_5

I haven’t read the book, but I know that he speaks well on the subject.

When reading about the subject, always pray for understanding, guidance, and healing. Ask the Holy Ghost to open your mind and heart.

Also, I suggest seeking spiritual council from a good priest.

That’s my take on things. I hope it is of some help, and if I have erred in any way, I ask that those with more understanding correct it.

God Bless

 

[larry85704]

You need to do what your heart says to do. It seems you have an unusual gift from God, but your feelings about sex could very well be from God. The Saints sometimes had gifts that most people thought were unusual, but so what. You maybe can adopt, if you want to be a mother. You maybe can get married, there probably is some one out there that would love you with a sexless marriage. But what the heck, you can find happiness and joy without sex. Your life can be every bit as wonderful without sex as it can be with sex. If you find out how to be happy without sex you could write a book. Probably sell a bunch.

 

[strngrnrth]

You need to do what your heart says to do. It seems you have an unusual gift from God, but your feelings about sex could very well be from God. The Saints sometimes had gifts that most people thought were unusual, but so what. You maybe can adopt, if you want to be a mother. You maybe can get married, there probably is some one out there that would love you with a sexless marriage. But what the heck, you can find happiness and joy without sex. Your life can be every bit as wonderful without sex as it can be with sex. If you find out how to be happy without sex you could write a book. Probably sell a bunch.

If you’re addressing me, I am happy without sex, it’s the social acceptance of pretending to think what I am expected to think about it that I feel deprived of.

 

[graceandglory]

If you’re addressing me, I am happy without sex, it’s the social acceptance of pretending to think what I am expected to think about it that I feel deprived of.

You are so ripe for reading Christopher West’s Theology of the Body Explained. I would go straight there, don’t read the quick versions. You are ready for this, man!

Also read Love and Responsibility, by Karol Wojtyla, Pope John Paul’s name before he became Pope, for it is the work where he started formulating the Theology of the Body.

His sources and inspiration are Sts. John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila. Both comtemplatives and mystics.

I am celibate person, hoping someday to be married, and Theology of the Body has totally helped me to understand Eros, and love, and why did God make us male and female? To lead us to Himself. Not in a sexual way. It’s so deep, and so hard to explain in a nutshell. But suffice it to say, all your feelings and questions will be addressed. TOB is exhaustive and thorough.

You will learn what yesterday’s gospel means, where Jesus said, “Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.” You will understand what Celibacy for the Kingdom is all about. You will learn the difference between celibacy and chastity. You will be challenged to seek your vocation.

I can’t recommend it enough. I really do think it’s what you are longing for.

~Sandra

 

[strngrnrth]

I don’t have a lot of cash for books. What’s the cheapest place I can get these things?

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

I just can’t bring myself to do it. I’ve prayed, and prayed for months to understand, to accept that Eros is essentially a good thing, that it is of God. God, however, has remained silent. Everytime I think of the subject, I become disgusted and depressed. I understand completely that I should humbly and completely submit to the Church, but my heart is telling me that I am right. Has anyone else gone through the same expierience as me concerning this topic?

Uh, firstly, your “private revelation” needs to be always subordinated to the dogmas of the Church, period.

This will bring to mind questions of why the divergence between you and the Church, since you know that the Church is correct.

So, the question then becomes what is preventing you from letting-go of your NEED to hold onto this belief.

If “your heart” is telling you something is the “truth” that the Church is telling you is not the truth, then you are hearing from someone other than God.

Why do you NEED “eros” to be always evil?

 

[strngrnrth]

Why do you NEED “eros” to be always evil?

I don’t know about the OP and others, but I know when I let my feelings go back to where they feel natural to me, I feel stronger and surer that I am really me. But then I feel guilty going against what God says. But when I try to believe it’s not how it seems, I feel crazy, if you can see what I mean. I want the world to make some kind of sense.

 

[Dale_M]

I don’t know about the OP and others, but I know when I let my feelings go back to where they feel natural to me, I feel stronger and surer that I am really me. But then I feel guilty going against what God says. But when I try to believe it’s not how it seems, I feel crazy, if you can see what I mean. I want the world to make some kind of sense.

I don’t think you are alone here. Many people struggle with a teaching of the Church - always has been, always will (short of the Second Coming).

Its okay to struggle, its okay to acknowledge the difficulty to yourself and to those you trust. It is important to stay aware of that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and is almost always right in its defined teaching, but that doesn’t mean your struggle is invalid or meaningless. Jesus, too, struggled with God’s Will in the garden of Gethsemane.

 

[Newbie2]

I just can’t bring myself to do it. I’ve prayed, and prayed for months to understand, to accept that Eros is essentially a good thing, that it is of God. God, however, has remained silent. Everytime I think of the subject, I become disgusted and depressed. I understand completely that I should humbly and completely submit to the Church, but my heart is telling me that I am right. Has anyone else gone through the same expierience as me concerning this topic?

If it’s any help, it’s OK to struggle with Church teachings; much better anyway to outright reject them. Sometimes God lets us struggle for years. Perhaps it’s worth more when we work for it?

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmDownWisWins
Why do you NEED “eros” to be always evil?

I don’t know about the OP and others, but I know when I let my feelings go back to where they feel natural to me, I feel stronger and surer that I am really me.

If you know, though not necessarily accept, that you are wrong about a feeling (your “natural” feeling), then the “un-strength” and “un-sure-ness” of your overall feeling are a positive sign of being “re-fitted” into a better shape.

Just as learning in school can be uncomfortable and leave one feeling “unsure”, we know that it’s for a good cause and worth enduring.

The key is to keep our eyes on the prize, and put up with the discomfort.

But then I feel guilty going against what God says. But when I try to believe it’s not how it seems, I feel crazy, if you can see what I mean. I want the world to make some kind of sense.

Never deny that your feelings are your feelings. That is simple insane denial of reality, which is never a good thing.

FEEL the discomfort, carry your cross, but realize that your suffering is only the burn you feel being purged of your sin. Purgatory starts WELL before our deaths, if we choose to do what is best for us, which is to not allow our “feelings of discomfort” disuade us from God’s demands.

The world does make sense whether we believe it or not. That’s what belief in God means. To not give up your feelings of “craziness” to God as your sacrifice, as your cross, is to prefer your comfort with not wanting to “SEEM crazy” to God Himself.

That is the definition of damning oneself to hell, once again, well before one’s death. Hanging onto that “habit” will most certainly gain one hell eternally.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

If it’s any help, it’s OK to struggle with Church teachings; much better anyway to outright reject them. Sometimes God lets us struggle for years. Perhaps it’s worth more when we work for it?

Uh, what!?

Why would it ever be better to “outright reject” truth from the Church?

I agree that full ACCEPTANCE of the truth is difficult and can take time, but an active rejection of the truth is a discontinuing of working on why that truth is truth. This is NEVER acceptable.

Are you Catholic? Is this “rejection of infallible truth” acceptable for you in your faith tradition?

 

[steveandersen]

Uh, what!?

Why would it ever be better to “outright reject” truth from the Church?

I agree that full ACCEPTANCE of the truth is difficult and can take time, but an active rejection of the truth is a discontinuing of working on why that truth is truth. This is NEVER acceptable.

Are you Catholic? Is this “rejection of infallible truth” acceptable for you in your faith tradition?

It appears as if he said that struggling was better than rejection.

 

[Leopard]

I don’t have a lot of cash for books. What’s the cheapest place I can get these things?

Your local Public Library. If they don’t have it in their own collection, ask them to get it through interlibrary loan.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

People have already addressed this in this thread, but it can’t hurt to reiterate it, so I will.

Some people have suggested that lust, in some contexts, HAS to be good. They’ve asked how a married couple could possibly even want to have sex without lust.

Remember: lust is NOT the same thing as “strong sexual desire.”

Other posters have already explained this better than I would, but I just want to make sure that no one confuses lust with strong sexual desire. They are not at all the same thing. A married couple can have intense sexual desire for each other without lust, which is intrinsically utilitarian, entering the picture at all.

Also - and I won’t go into too much detail here, either, since other posters have already done so very well - remember that Eros is not “lust” either. Indeed, I would go so far as to suggest that Eros, while inevitably physical/sexual, is primarily emotional - i.e. “being in love,” being completely and totally infatuated with someone in a romantic/sexual sense. But that goes way beyond mere physical desire for intercourse.

While Eros can be twisted by concupiscence into lust, its true and ideal expression is in tandem with Agape, between a husband and wife.

 

[strngrnrth]

Also - and I won’t go into too much detail here, either, since other posters have already done so very well - remember that Eros is not “lust” either. Indeed, I would go so far as to suggest that Eros, while inevitably physical/sexual, is primarily emotional - i.e. “being in love,” being completely and totally infatuated with someone in a romantic/sexual sense. But that goes way beyond mere physical desire for intercourse.

While Eros can be twisted by concupiscence into lust, its true and ideal expression is in tandem with Agape, between a husband and wife.

But what I can’t understand is how sexual desire can even be compatible with Agape, regardless of relationship or intention.