I can't accept the Church's teachings on Eros

[strngrnrth]

I think we should all be a little easier on strngrnrth. She truly seems to mean well and have problems that some of what is being said here is not likely to help.

Several of the points you’ve made are very good. It is true that it is bad and hypocritical for a man to want to be your friend only because he finds you physically attractive. I think it’s fair to say that it’s not wrong for men to find you attractive, but if that’s all they care about, then they’re wrong.

Secondly, I was appalled when I read that you said Christians often pressure you to get married. I was appalled because not everyone is called to the married life, and that’s perfectly okay. Other people do not get to dictate your vocation to you. Pressuring someone into marriage is wrong.

And if you don’t see sex as a desirable act, then perhaps that is a strong clue that you are not called to marriage. Although it does seem rather unhealthy to regard sex as intrinsically lustful or utilitarian or bad, that’s not the same thing as you simply not wanting it. You can recognize that it can be a good thing without feeling called to a vocation which includes it yourself.

I am sorry that you feel saddened by the fact that you want to be a mother without being a wife. This is one area of Church teaching which would require you to choose both or neither; aside from the negative practical consequences of children not having both a mother and a father, there are also important theological reasons for the importance of the link between sex and procreation. The Church teaches that the generation of human life by means other than marital sexual union is wrong for the very same reason that she teaches contraception is wrong.

As others have done, I encourage you to look into the theology of the body. But please don’t stress out too much. You seem to be trying very hard, and as you yourself pointed out that you’re living chastely, it seems that you are doing what is required of you by God and the Church. God will understand if you find yourself unable to realize on a more visceral level the inherent goodness of human sexuality. You seem to be doing fine with what you can control - the choices you make, what you do. Leave the rest to God.

Thank you for responding to what I’m saying. I can’t imagine any siuation in which I would want to be married, yet for years I looked for a husband because the message I got was that of course a Christian woman needs a husband.
I will pray over my vocation. If I really can’t be a mother without a man I will try to find some way to be a teacher or something like that.
Do you really think it’s possible to respect someone as a human being and be attracted physically too? I’ve never experienced that on either side that I know of, and I definitely have gotten the impression many people don’t think it can be acheived, but everyone lives a different life. We don’t know what’s in other people’s heads. It’s like hearing that some people can sing more than one note at once. I guess I can believe it could be so.
There are plenty of women and men in the world saying what I’m saying. It was really as a young adult that I even realized not everyone sees things as I do.
I appreciate the response.

 

[davidv]

Do you really think it’s possible to respect someone as a human being and be attracted physically too?

Yes. I offer you myself and my respect for, and my attraction to, my wife as an example.

 

[catharina]

I just can’t bring myself to do it. I’ve prayed, and prayed for months to understand, to accept that Eros is essentially a good thing, that it is of God. God, however, has remained silent. Everytime I think of the subject, I become disgusted and depressed. I understand completely that I should humbly and completely submit to the Church, but my heart is telling me that I am right. Has anyone else gone through the same expierience as me concerning this topic?

It might help you to meditate on the fact that Jesus performed His first public miracle to assist in the celebration of a new marriage.

 

[Elizabeth2]

Yes. The Manichaeans.

Now there’s a laugh

 

[Elizabeth2]

Do you really think it’s possible to respect someone as a human being and be attracted physically too? I’ve never experienced that on either side that I know of, and I definitely have gotten the impression many people don’t think it can be acheived, but everyone lives a different life. We don’t know what’s in other people’s heads. It’s like hearing that some people can sing more than one note at once. I guess I can believe it could be so.
There are plenty of women and men in the world saying what I’m saying. It was really as a young adult that I even realized not everyone sees things as I do.
I appreciate the response.

Maybe yours is just a nauseous reaction to our oversexed society. We do have a faulty version of sexuality thrown at us practically non stop by the media. I often feel quite nauseous myself. I rarely go to the movies these days and try and keep my eyes off the magazines at the check out counter. Sometimes (often) the more you think about things the worse it gets. But to answer your question yes it is possible and I think it happens all the time.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Thank you for responding to what I’m saying.

You’re quite welcome.

I can’t imagine any siuation in which I would want to be married, yet for years I looked for a husband because the message I got was that of course a Christian woman needs a husband.

Yeah, that really irritates me. At least according to the Catholic understanding, a good “Christian woman” may not be called to the married vocation at all, in which case she obviously wouldn’t need a husband. I’m glad you haven’t let yourself be pressured into marriage.

I will pray over my vocation. If I really can’t be a mother without a man I will try to find some way to be a teacher or something like that.

Hey, I have a question for anyone who knows the answer: is it morally acceptable according to a Catholic understanding for a single Catholic woman to adopt a child? I can’t believe that I honestly don’t know the answer to this question.

As for methods like IVF, here’s what the Catechism says about procreation when achieved apart from marital sexual union:

They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children. Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses’ union. Paragraph 2377

Do you really think it’s possible to respect someone as a human being and be attracted physically too?

I know it’s possible.

There are plenty of women and men in the world saying what I’m saying. It was really as a young adult that I even realized not everyone sees things as I do.

I believe you. There are also many men and women - I’d say many more, but I could be wrong - who believe that having respect and selfless love for someone is entirely compatible with finding them sexually attractive, that philia and agape are quite compatible with eros.

But again, strngrnrth, please don’t freak out if you don’t see things that way. Like I said, you can’t control the way you feel, and you’re clearly already trying very hard to conform your life to the truth. There’s no reason whatsoever that you personally have to get married and be sexually active. Don’t freak out.

I appreciate the response.

My pleasure. I really want to commend you, strngrnrth. You seem very humble and honest in how you’re seeking truth.

 

[Joe_Williams]

All I can tell you is I’ve spent hundreds or maybe thousands of hours of my life trying not to be disgusted by it, since it’s an expectation, and the harder I try thhe more disgusting I find it. This was true in the old days and it’s true now that I’m a Christian and have decided to be chaste. It was disgusting when it was fun and when it wasn’t. It was disgusting in the abstract and in progress. It was disgusting with people I liked and people I didn’t like. It was disgusting, drunk, sober, and high. It was disgusting as a ritual. It was always that way. I have tried philosophizing, intellectualizing, getting a little higher, and pretending. All I know is how I feel and I feel better being myself than pretending.

You have struck gold my friend. You have stumbled on the meaning of lust. Sexual relations are meant for a man and woman in the marital state. Without marital love, sex in any form is just a lustful act. To be in love with your spouse goes beyond romantic feelings and physical attraction. Real marital love is feeling your spouse’s every feeling. It is looking at them knowing that they are God’s gift to you. It is an indescribable warmth in your very soul. We are told by God that we are to love our wives as ourselves and to make whatever sacrifices are necessary to sustain her… just as Christ does for his church. If you think of the love Jesus has for us, you can understand that marital love goes well beyond physical and psychological reasoning. In the marital act (sex) we are giving ourselves completely to our spouse. It is OK to enjoy it but remember that true love for the spouse compels us to want to be closer. It is hard to understand for someone who is single. Keep praying though. Trust our Lord. If marriage is not for you then there are other paths to follow. Sex outside of marriage is just sinful, selfish lust. In the confines of marriage, it is a wonderful blessing. Thanks for letting me write.
Take care, Joe

 

[The_Catholic]

all lust is bad. period. but notice, that “lust” and “sexual arousal” are two different things (though they the latter can lead to the former).

from CCC:
when your wife arouses you, do you want to have sex with her just for sex, without unitive (and possibly procreative) purposes? That is lust, and it is bad even between husband and wife.

Do I want to eat a piece of apple pie because I really enjoy it and it tastes good, or am i just hungry. Oh man, not worth commenting on.

I had sex with my wife the other night for 1 I love her and 2 she “looked” hot, sexy, beautiful, ah I must be sick and Godless.

 

[richardwy]

But the Pope is using the term to mean “marital love”.

Obviously, the encyclical cannot be praising lust – although it does seem that way when using the word “eros” and that word is not defined in the text of the encyclical.

Of course, you’re correct in your 1st sentence.

A side note, I didn’t confuse the term with lust and neither did anyone in our reading group. We knew what Pope Benedict was talking about.

 

[Hastrman]

Pius XII infallibly defined the goodness of the pleasure of sexuality anyway (a pre Vatican II Pope, for all you sedevacantist heretics).

 

[MGuevara224]

I think we need a clarification of terms here… en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love
Click on that link to see the original meaning for eros. There are three words for love in Greek. Eros does not mean lust or lustful love, it is only connected through the original meaning of eros which is a deep sensual or passionate love - because we think intercourse when we hear these terms. These things used in a proper way lead us to intercouse in a consumation of a marriage, but in another context they may lead us to sacrifice everything for a loved one. You don’t get more passionate in love for someone than when you’re willing to give your life for them. Pray that God will disconnect your mind from connecting the lies the devil flaunts on tv and in magazines about passionate love. Eros means that God loves us deeply and passionately with an inner longing for us to return to Him. Lust is sensual pleasure void of the love of God. Self-seeking pleasure. No lust (or sensual pleasure without God’s love can ever be good.

 

[The_Catholic]

Yes, I agree with this. especially “No lust (or sensual pleasure without God’s love can ever be good.” Sometimes it’s difficult for me to understand though, especially how so many say “you sinned, you’re going to hell, you’re sick because you displayed physical attraction for another” blah blah blah!! I just don’t get it. It seems unnatural and unscientific to say such thngs. Again: No lust (or sensual pleasure without God’s love can ever be good" now THAT makes sense.

I am being completely honest, when my wife wears high heels,a skirt, and has her hair down she looks all the more beautiful than ever, and yes at times she arouses me easier, but that doesn’t mean I don’t *love *her. I love her with all my heart, would *never *cheat on her (though I know it’s possible since I’m human, but in my heart of hearts I will say I’ll NEVER do that)!

I guess I just don’t truly understand the meaning of lust and love 100%

 

[fhansen]

At one time I think I thought that lust was all there was to male/female relationships. I probably knew better but had bought into societies’ attitude mainly because I thought I’d miss out on something if I didn’t-so it wasn’t just them, whoever they are-it was me, too. Then I fell in love. It was a solid mixture of agape and eros love- I knew I would die for this person. From that experience I knew that love was real, and that somehow it sanctifies and compliments everything involved in the marital relationship-sex becomes-as it was meant to be- a “family affair”-something we would do only with someone we have that kind of comfort and familiarity with. That’s my take on it for what it’s worth.

 

[usagi1962]

OK, here’s my problem with this.

You may claim sex within marriage has two purposes, procreation and unitive, but babies always come first on everyone’s list. So it is obvious (at least to me) that what you really mean is: sex is reserved for marriage because its sole purpose in God’s plan is to make babies.

Second, why exactly is sex before marriage wrong? I am a former pagan, and I got teased a lot because I believe monogamy - I don’t support free love/multiple partners because I feel certain that is not how humans are meant to live, and that people who do that always wind up hurting someone. But why is sex wrong in a commited relationship - like for an engaged couple? I have been told it is because only marriage is a committed relationship. By that reasoning, is an engaged person free to date?

Finally, what changes after marriage besides it is legal to have children and it is harder to walk away from the relationship. If you want your partner sexually before marriage, people/church say that’s all you want/have in the relationship. Same feelings, same actions after marriage are suddenly “OK”? What has changed? I simply can’t grasp this.

I would appreciate any (name removed by moderator)ut. I am new to the Church, having just come in at Easter, and I really want to understand. By the way, I am engaged.