I can't forgive my cousin

[LittleMother]

It would also give him a chance to get to his fiance first and try to ruin his cousin’s credibilty and time to think up whatever lies he might try or even flee.

 

[Primox]

He has some defense? He molested a 4 year old at the age of 15 and a 6 year old at the age of 19 -what defense could you possibly imagine for that. You’re whole post seems to imply that you don’t see this as a big deal. This was sexual abuse, there is no excuse or defense for that.

It is most certainly a big deal. But let’s imagine a few hypotheticals. ‘Ben’ was sexually asaulted as a young boy and grew up with a distorted view on sexuality. ‘Ben’ was taking illegal substances and excited an otherwise latent and unacceptable desire. ‘Ben,’ through some inexplicable pathology, has commited atrocities which he, too, finds disgusting. You don’t know. When we aren’t acutely aware of the situational or biological factors which can give rise to such injustices, we attribute the cause of a person’s behaviour to a their uniquely and deeply troubling personality; the individual becomes terrible, and not the sins they commit, or the circumstances which gave rise to them. I’m not saying what this man did is open for pardon, I’m saying he is a sinner like the rest of us. I’m merely suggesting that one should reconcile what can be reconciled rather than initially involving third party members: Matthew 5:23-24: “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift”

And she said he was violent.

I agree with rayne, Primox. Your whole post makes my skin crawl. Child molesters never have only one victim, and they are impossible to reform.

Any defense or reparation this guy might offer would be pure manipulation.

I always say about child molesters that some things are too bad for us to forgive… that’s why there is God.

Nothing in my attempt to take an objective stance should make your skin crawl. I am as moved by this injustice as anyone, but I prefer to act on reason and not emotion. Many ‘child molester’s,’ as you’ve termed them, act infrequently (not that this should be a defence, but also not to vilanize an individual either for Christ’s sake, or because of some pathology). You don’t know what this man’s heart is, and nothing is too bad for us to forgive. I can’t imagine reading such foolishness from a Christian.

This is someone who thinks it’s okay to sexually abuse children, how far do you think he’d be willing to go to protect his secret and escape possible jail time? He could seriously hurt her if she were to just go to him to confront.

I admit the possibility, only insofar as many things are possible, but I think this is generalizing a bit far from what acts he has committed.

Don’t anybody get me wrong - this was a terrible thing done to these women - but I, for Christ’s sake, am not okay with vilanizing people; not for murders, not for assaults. God can forgive and so can Nicole.

Again, you have my prayers.

 

[TeresaAnn]

It is most certainly a big deal. But let’s imagine a few hypotheticals. ‘Ben’ was sexually asaulted as a young boy and grew up with a distorted view on sexuality. ‘Ben’ was taking illegal substances and excited an otherwise latent and unacceptable desire. ‘Ben,’ through some inexplicable pathology, has commited atrocities which he, too, finds disgusting. You don’t know. When we aren’t acutely aware of the situational or biological factors which can give rise to such injustices, we attribute the cause of a person’s behaviour to a their uniquely and deeply troubling personality; the individual becomes terrible, and not the sins they commit, or the circumstances which gave rise to them. I’m not saying what this man did is open for pardon, I’m saying he is a sinner like the rest of us. I’m merely suggesting that one should reconcile what can be reconciled rather than initially involving third party members: Matthew 5:23-24: “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift”

Every sin can be explained away. Nicolle would be in danger. She does not owe this person the privilege of being told first at the expense of her own safety. Despite why he did this (you seem to think it matters) Nicolle was a young child victim of this person, who did this not once but at least twice. Nicolle has no obligation to be anywhere near this person ever again. Sure, she can forgive him. That does not mean she has to put herself at risk, cause herself any additional pain by being near him.

Nothing in my attempt to take an objective stance should make your skin crawl. I am as moved by this injustice as anyone, but I prefer to act on reason and not emotion. Many ‘child molester’s,’ as you’ve termed them, act infrequently (not that this should be a defence, but also not to vilanize an individual either for Christ’s sake, or because of some pathology). You don’t know what this man’s heart is, and nothing is too bad for us to forgive. I can’t imagine reading such foolishness from a Christian.

I admit the possibility, only insofar as many things are possible, but I think this is generalizing a bit far from what acts he has committed.

Don’t anybody get me wrong - this was a terrible thing done to these women - but I, for Christ’s sake, am not okay with vilanizing people; not for murders, not for assaults. God can forgive and so can Nicole.

So, are you saying that if someone tried to murder you, and your sister, did not ever apologize or let you know that it was wrong to try to kill your sister and yourself, you would meet with them in person, a month before their wedding and tell them that you where going to tell everyone what happened? Give your head a shake.

Again, you have my prayers.

 

[Gertabelle]

It is most certainly a big deal. But let’s imagine a few hypotheticals. ‘Ben’ was sexually asaulted as a young boy and grew up with a distorted view on sexuality. ‘Ben’ was taking illegal substances and excited an otherwise latent and unacceptable desire. ‘Ben,’ through some inexplicable pathology, has commited atrocities which he, too, finds disgusting. You don’t know.

Who cares what his motivations were? Ben’s fiance still needs to know about his actions before she marries him. Taking this stand does not “villanize” Ben. It is an act of Christian responsibility. It is not about villanizing Ben, it is about protecting other innocent children from Ben’s behavior, regardless of why he did this in the past (or why he might in the future).

When we aren’t acutely aware of the situational or biological factors which can give rise to such injustices, we attribute the cause of a person’s behaviour to a their uniquely and deeply troubling personality; the individual becomes terrible, and not the sins they commit, or the circumstances which gave rise to them. I’m not saying what this man did is open for pardon, I’m saying he is a sinner like the rest of us. I’m merely suggesting that one should reconcile what can be reconciled rather than initially involving third party members.

This thread isn’t about whether Ben is “disgusting” or a “villain.” It is about this young woman’s struggle to forgive him, and whether and how to address his fiance. I think you are misinterpreting the verse from Matthew. It is Ben and his fiance who need to deal with this before they approach the altar.

Nothing in my attempt to take an **objective stance **should make your skin crawl. I am as moved by this injustice as anyone, but I prefer to act on reason and not emotion. Many ‘child molester’s,’ as you’ve termed them, act infrequently.

Child molesters act when they act, some infrequently, others often. Depending on the “hypotheticals” as you call them, some child molesters intensify their actions with time, sometimes even leading to violence, abduction, and murder. There is no way the OP can know what type of molester Ben is, so she is right to act by talking with his fiance.

Incidentally, terming someone a “child molester” is not a villanization of that person. If one molests a child, that person by definition is a child molester. That is basic English and an objective stance:

from dictionary.com:

Mo-lest verb: to make annoying sexual advances to; specifically : to force physical and usually sexual contact on (as a child) —**mo·lest·er **noun

Back to Nicole…

You are in our prayers. I have gone back in my past to try to protect others, and it takes more courage than I thought I had. God will support you and your sister as you take steps to honor marriage and to protect other innocent children. Keep your heart and mind focused on God’s Love and act in that Love.

God bless you, dear one.

Gertie

 

[sanctamaria17]

As someone who has been threatened, accosted, and grabbed more times in adolescence than I would like to remember and had one incident that kept my normally big mouth shut about ANY bad things happening in my life for two years, there is NO way she should go tell him one on one.

Why do you THINK their sins are so disgusting to society? It’s because they ARE. When you sin like that, you lock a person into a state of fear, twist something that should be beautiful and consensual in marriage into an exercise of power and dominance, and ruin a person’s innocence. Of course it’s more disgusting than most other sins.

Not only that, but confronting them is dangerous. Nicolle could put her life in danger. Do you think he’s just going to be, “Oh! So sorry about that! Of COURSE I’ll turn myself in!” They will stop at nothing to hide their sin.

It’s not about whether Ben is a bad person or not. But he didn’t just do it once. He did it twice, to another member of the same immediate family. Once as a minor, again as an adult.

And yes, his fiancée should know. I’d rather know before the wedding than dealing with the shock and horror of my own child being molested, finding out he did it to members of his family before we married but that everyone decided to keep it quiet, and going through a very traumatic time of pressing charges, getting divorced, and filing for annulment proceedings. That would be enough to scare me away from any other attempts at marriage.

 

[Primox]

So, are you saying that if someone tried to murder you, and your sister…

How quickly those we disapprove of turn into murderers.

Who cares what his motivations were?

Understanding someone’s motivations or pathologies helps us forgive. We can displace the hatred in our hearts for the person on the circumstances which brought about the act. My point is that we don’t know what those circumstances are, but they nevertheless contribute to ‘Ben’s’ acts. This is a healthy gambit to ponder for forgiveness. The thread is titled “I can’t forgive my cousin.”

I think you are misinterpreting the verse from Matthew.

I would have to be misinterpreting it in order for you to disagree with me.

Incidentally, terming someone a “child molester” is not a villanization of that person. If one molests a child, that person by definition is a child molester. That is basic English and an objective stance

This is not exactly true. When someone lies to us, do we forever term them a liar? Or would that be villanizing them? Titles are judgements. When we give titles, we’ve incorporated whatever we’ve termed them to be into the thread of their personality. Contrary to your ‘basic English,’ we assign titles based on consistent behaviour. Two incidents are hardly a sample. I’m not saying what he did wasn’t wrong, I’m not saying he hasn’t potentially done more than what is known, I’m saying you don’t know. You don’t know.

 

[Cathhsmom]

I met my priest and told him everything, and I am so glad that I did.

He was obviously extremely shocked by the whole story (he is the one who did my cousin and her fiancée’s marriage preparation), and also by the lack of concern/support of my father. He said that he perfectly understood my need to tell the fiancée what is going on before she makes such a big commitment with my cousin and that he would definitely agree to be in the room with me when I will tell her or even to be the one to tell her if I feel that I won’t be able to. He mentioned that since my sister is still underage she could potentially call child protection services and that my cousin would have to go to court.

He said that it was a very delicate situation, but a grave matter and that he was really glad that I talked to him about it because it was a necessary step for me to be able to move on. I gave him my cell phone and home phone numbers. He is going to do some research, think of an “action plan” and get back to me.

I feel so much better now. I feel like I really have the support of my priest and that my sister and I will be able to get through this, even though it won’t be easy. I know that the hardest part will be telling my cousin’s fiancée, and then dealing with the drama that will follow with the whole family I have to admit that I am really worried about that, and about what my father will do when he finds out what I did.

Thanks for all of the advice that you have all given me, and the support and prayers, I would not have had the courage to talk to someone without your help.

After reading this, I said a quick prayer of thanksgiving to God for this priest. I, too, was abused as a child. My 2nd step-father tried to molest me at the age of 10. He is my baby brother’s father. So, it has been a really hard road. When I did my 1st confession, Catholic convert so confession at 28ish, my big thing was that I didn’t think that I could forgive this man. I had an awesome priest. He told me that forgiveness is not for the man but to release myself from the anger and pain. It is for ME. He told me that to forgive does not mean to forget or to put myself in a position that would harm me. His suggestion was to start with asking God to help me to Want to forgive him. Let God work on it with me instead of trying to do it on my own. It has taken me many years. But, I finally got to the point where this summer when my brother asked me to pray for his dad because he is really sick, ie cancer, I was actually able to do it and pray that I would see him in Heaven. Because, that would mean that he had acknowledged what he had done and asked forgiveness of it. I want him to be healed and grab onto God. I truely do. This for me is something that I never thought that I would be able to ask for, but through God’s grace and the help of my priest, I am able to do it.

 

[Norseman82]

Primox,

What if Nicole did nothing, swept it under the rug, and then “Ben” moved to your neighborhood and molested YOUR daughter, sister, granddaughter, etc.?

 

[Primox]

Primox,

What if Nicole did nothing, swept it under the rug, and then “Ben” moved to your neighborhood and molested YOUR daughter, sister, granddaughter, etc.?

That would be awful. I don’t quite know where you’re going with this though.

 

[sanctamaria17]

Norseman’s point is that you’re accusing Nicolle of being “emotional” and “judgmental” because she’s not confronting Ben one on one and that he may have “changed.” Well, Nicolle has had to live with this trauma her whole life and not only that, it was made known that she wasn’t the only one in the family this happened to, that her sister was attacked as well. Now that he’s getting married and there is a possibility of children, she is naturally worried about this and thinks his fiancée should know. As for why she wouldn’t confront him, it’s because he bullied, threatened and molested her in the past…what could he do to her if she went to him alone?

This is not a “if someone lied to you” type thing. This is serious, dangerous, and frightening. And in this case, it most certainly wasn’t a one time thing…If she confronts him alone, after he has proven to her AND her sister in TWO DIFFERENT TIME FRAMES that he is NOT harmless, that would not be a prudent course of action at all.

Repentance is a good thing and we should always hope and pray for it. I certainly hope that Ben has changed. But his sin needs to be exposed, because this not only impacts those he has hurt, but also impacts his family life. At the very least, it could be a wakeup call. Not to mention that, as Catholics, when we marry, we need to do so with FULL consent. Ben’s fiancé is not going to have that if she isn’t made aware.

As for the, “But it’s his sin and he should know!” he lost that right when he decided to brutalize and terrorize two small children. Because it always IS a brutal crime and it NEEDS to be made known. These sins THRIVE in silence. Do we ask murderers if it’s OK that society knows they killed people?

I think his fiancée’s ability to fully consent and the safety of all of these women is MUCH more crucial right now than if this “poor baby” gets his feelings hurt. As for, “he could have been abused!”, many, many of my girlfriends were raped, abused, and molested in their childhood or adolescent years and none of them, NONE would ever do that to another person. Same with my guy friends who’ve experienced the same thing. As an adult (which he was the second time), he knew full well that this was wrong and against the law, why else would he lock the door and stop when he knew people were coming?

I hope he repents. I hope he realizes the full wrong of what he’s done and never does it again. But I think Nicolle is doing the right thing and I commend her courage and fortitude through all of this. I also commend the prudence of her priest.

Nicolle, I don’t have words for you but you and your sister get hugs and tons of prayers! :grouphug::hug1::hug3: And I’ll ask the intercession of St. Joan of Arc (my patron and a patron of survivors) and St. Maria Goretti for you.

 

[Primox]

Norseman’s point is that you’re accusing Nicolle of being “emotional” and “judgmental” because she’s not confronting Ben one on one

These aren’t my words. I understand what you’re saying though.

 

[Nicole777]

My goodness, I can’t believe I’ve gone through the entire thread and no one has suggested confronting ‘Ben.’ Why don’t you talk to him about it? Perhaps it would be to everyone’s avail. I’m sure if he was going to be exposed for his sins, he would like to know about it first and foremost. Perhaps he some defence; perhaps he has some plan of restitution, appology, remorse, or reform. Perhaps all five.

As far as forgiveness goes, try to remember that our transgressions against our Father in Heaven, by way of the human affliction, are far more grievous than this man’s transgression against you and your sister. Pedophile’s (I would be reluctant to call him one, though) are sinners - it’s just a shame for our Mercy’s sake that their sins are far more disgusting to society.

Nevertheless, my prayers are with you. I regret having read such a heart-breaking story. May God show you what you ought to do, and may He heal your wounds.

Thank you for your prayers.

Ben has already lied in the past, saying that the four-year-old girl that I was invented the whole incident. When my parents asked one of his sisters, who came in the room and interrupted him, if what I said was true, she said it wasn’t. If she was scared of telling the truth, it was probably because she was scared of what her big brother would do if she told the truth. Now that there is also the other molestation with my sister, and that he was an adult when that happened, who knows how far he could go to keep this on the down low.

Right now, I can’t take the chance of him lying again, or harming me or any of my family members. I have talked to my priest and he is figuring out what to do, and I will follow his advice.

If after the fiancée knows Ben wants to talk to me about his “restitution, appology, remorse, or reform”, I’ll be glad to listen to him, and forgive him. But right now I have no obligation to keep his dirty little secret, especially when it could put other children at risk, and ruin his fiancée’s life.

 

[Norseman82]

My goodness, I can’t believe I’ve gone through the entire thread and no one has suggested confronting ‘Ben.’ Why don’t you talk to him about it? Perhaps it would be to everyone’s avail. I’m sure if he was going to be exposed for his sins, he would like to know about it first and foremost. Perhaps he some defence; perhaps he has some plan of restitution, appology, remorse, or reform. Perhaps all five.

As far as forgiveness goes, try to remember that our transgressions against our Father in Heaven, by way of the human affliction, are far more grievous than this man’s transgression against you and your sister. Pedophile’s (I would be reluctant to call him one, though) are sinners - it’s just a shame for our Mercy’s sake that their sins are far more disgusting to society.

Nevertheless, my prayers are with you. I regret having read such a heart-breaking story. May God show you what you ought to do, and may He heal your wounds.

It is most certainly a big deal. But let’s imagine a few hypotheticals. ‘Ben’ was sexually asaulted as a young boy and grew up with a distorted view on sexuality. ‘Ben’ was taking illegal substances and excited an otherwise latent and unacceptable desire. ‘Ben,’ through some inexplicable pathology, has commited atrocities which he, too, finds disgusting. You don’t know. When we aren’t acutely aware of the situational or biological factors which can give rise to such injustices, we attribute the cause of a person’s behaviour to a their uniquely and deeply troubling personality; the individual becomes terrible, and not the sins they commit, or the circumstances which gave rise to them. I’m not saying what this man did is open for pardon, I’m saying he is a sinner like the rest of us. I’m merely suggesting that one should reconcile what can be reconciled rather than initially involving third party members: Matthew 5:23-24: “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift”

Nothing in my attempt to take an objective stance should make your skin crawl. I am as moved by this injustice as anyone, but I prefer to act on reason and not emotion. Many ‘child molester’s,’ as you’ve termed them, act infrequently (not that this should be a defence, but also not to vilanize an individual either for Christ’s sake, or because of some pathology). You don’t know what this man’s heart is, and nothing is too bad for us to forgive. I can’t imagine reading such foolishness from a Christian.

I admit the possibility, only insofar as many things are possible, but I think this is generalizing a bit far from what acts he has committed.

Don’t anybody get me wrong - this was a terrible thing done to these women - but I, for Christ’s sake, am not okay with vilanizing people; not for murders, not for assaults. God can forgive and so can Nicole.

Again, you have my prayers.

Primox,

The point I am getting at is that you are discouraging her from telling an authority figure, but alerting the authorities might be the only thing that stops him from doing this to someone else (for example, your daughter, sister, etc.that I referenced before). And let’s face facts, when you say things like “reconcile before involving third parties” and religious guilt trips like “he’s a sinner like the rest of us” (which , by the way, is outrageous, equating us to child molesters; but I must cut you some slack, as you are not Catholic, so you probably have not been instructed correctly about the varying gravity of sins), you are discouraging her from alerting the authorities. It is this discouragement that has allowed so many molesters to get away with what they have done and to continue to prey on others.

The first order of business is to make sure he no longer hurts anyone else; then forgiveness can occur. In fact, I honestly believe that in this type of situation, going to the authorities in the hopes of stopping “Ben” is a PREREQUISITE for forgiveness.

 

[Primox]

Right now, I can’t take the chance of him lying again, or harming me or any of my family members. I have talked to my priest and he is figuring out what to do, and I will follow his advice.

I understand. Good for you.

If after the fiancée knows Ben wants to talk to me about his “restitution, appology, remorse, or reform”, I’ll be glad to listen to him, and forgive him.

Good. Well I hope everything can be resolved without too much conflict.
God Bless you, Nicole. You have my prayers.

 

[Norseman82]

Thank you for your prayers.

Ben has already lied in the past, saying that the four-year-old girl that I was invented the whole incident. When my parents asked one of his sisters, who came in the room and interrupted him, if what I said was true, she said it wasn’t. If she was scared of telling the truth, it was probably because she was scared of what her big brother would do if she told the truth. Now that there is also the other molestation with my sister, and that he was an adult when that happened, who knows how far he could go to keep this on the down low.

Right now, I can’t take the chance of him lying again, or harming me or any of my family members. I have talked to my priest and he is figuring out what to do, and I will follow his advice.

If after the fiancée knows Ben wants to talk to me about his “restitution, appology, remorse, or reform”, I’ll be glad to listen to him, and forgive him. But right now I have no obligation to keep his dirty little secret, especially when it could put other children at risk, and ruin his fiancée’s life.

Nicole,

You are in our prayers. It takes a lot of strength to do what you are doing, and I pray that God will give you the strength to continue.

 

[Primox]

Primox,

The point I am getting at is that you are discouraging her from telling an authority figure, but alerting the authorities might be the only thing that stops him from doing this to someone else (for example, your daughter, sister, etc.that I referenced before). And let’s face facts, when you say things like “reconcile before involving third parties” and religious guilt trips like “he’s a sinner like the rest of us” (which , by the way, is outrageous, equating us to child molesters; but I must cut you some slack, as you are not Catholic, so you probably have not been instructed correctly about the varying gravity of sins), you are discouraging her from alerting the authorities. It is this discouragement that has allowed so many molesters to get away with what they have done and to continue to prey on others.

The first order of business is to make sure he no longer hurts anyone else; then forgiveness can occur. In fact, I honestly believe that in this type of situation, going to the authorities in the hopes of stopping “Ben” is a PREREQUISITE for forgiveness.

This is not precisely what I was trying to convey, but I understand where you’re coming from.

 

[Nicole777]

Nicole.
You have a RIGHT TO BE VERY ANGRY.
If some strange people in your family blame you for messing up their illusion of an idyllic family life, then WHATEVER. They don’t matter.

I already know that they are going to blame me and any sister, I am trying to prepare myself mentally and emotionally for that. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if my father punished me or something when he finds out I’ve told the priest. I do know that I have a right to be angry though, and I feel like talking to the priest and to people on this website has empowered me.
Monicad:

I am one that beleives the priest should be told first. Probably because after telling him it will hopefully be easier to tell the fiancee…as the conversation with Father will likely not involve screaming or crying or drama or whatever else may happen when you tell the fiancee (she will probably not take it calmly). Tell father that the two of you (sisters) just realized that you both were victims…therefore it was not an “isolated” incident but a clear pattern of abuse. Also tell Father that you are planning on telling the fiancee. If he is a good priest he can give you some good advice, also ask him for his prayers and his blessing

I followed your advice and told the priest first. I am waiting for him to call me back when he figured out exactly what to do about this. Right now I am still debating whether I should let him tell the fiancee alone, or tell her myself with him and my sister in the room. I will ask him what he thinks is best.

Gertabelle:

You are in our prayers. I have gone back in my past to try to protect others, and it takes more courage than I thought I had. God will support you and your sister as you take steps to honor marriage and to protect other innocent children. Keep your heart and mind focused on God’s Love and act in that Love.

sanctamaria17:

Nicolle, I don’t have words for you but you and your sister get hugs and tons of prayers! And I’ll ask the intercession of St. Joan of Arc (my patron and a patron of survivors) and St. Maria Goretti for you.

Thanks a lot for your kind words.

 

[catherinette]

I already know that they are going to blame me and any sister, I am trying to prepare myself mentally and emotionally for that. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if my father punished me or something when he finds out I’ve told the priest. I do know that I have a right to be angry though, and I feel like talking to the priest and to people on this website has empowered me.

Nicole, I’m so sorry you and your sister have had to deal with this situation, especially with little support from your family. You are dealing with the situation with a lot of courage though, and I’ll pray for you, that you stay strong as the situation unfolds.

I followed your advice and told the priest first. I am waiting for him to call me back when he figured out exactly what to do about this. Right now I am still debating whether I should let him tell the fiancee alone, or tell her myself with him and my sister in the room. I will ask him what he thinks is best.

It might be best to speak to the fiancee with at least the priest in the room; even though I’m sure she will eventually be grateful to you and your sister for coming forward with this, it’s definitely going to be difficult for her to hear about the man she has decided she wants to marry.

 

[nodito]

It might be best to speak to the fiancee with at least the priest in the room; even though I’m sure she will eventually be grateful to you and your sister for coming forward with this, it’s definitely going to be difficult for her to hear about the man she has decided she wants to marry.

You should also consider the very unfortunate scenario in which she doesn’t believe you and accuses you of lying to get attention.

 

[flyingfish]

Right now I am still debating whether I should let him tell the fiancee alone, or tell her myself with him and my sister in the room. I will ask him what he thinks is best.

I think all three of you should tell her. She will have many questions when the priest tells her, and it’s best if you and your sister are there to answer them.

She might not want to believe the priest at first, cause she will want the man she’s been with for 8 years to be a good man.