I can't get my protestant brain wrapped around this

[SteveVH]

I think some of us are more susceptible or vulnerable towards falling into superstition, and what draws another person closer to Christ becomes a stumbling block to another.

Those who have struggled with a particular issue maybe are more apt to fear the same is occuring for others. I know I have a tendency to do that, be rather hyper vigilant about things that have caused me trouble in the past. There are some behaviors I have had to stop entirely because I couldn’t do them in moderation or appropriately. And it’s hard to understand how other people can.

I have been told by Catholics that the Mass is their act of Worship, and therefore, since the Mass is only about God, and it is never offered to anyone or thing, then all other behaviors by definition are not worship. They are veneration, honor etc, but the Mass is THE act of Worship and it never has been and never will be offered to anyone but God himself.

someone else here mentioned that sometimes it’s a case of using different meanings of words. Catholics say they pray to saints, and use the term as in “pray, will you help me with this and pray for me to God” while other faiths have a different definition of pray.

I think worship is the same. If one has a different understanding of what constitutes worship it gets confusing. What is considered worshipful posture or behavior in one faith may not be so in another.

In some faiths, bowing/kneeling/lowering of heads is worshipful posture, in others standing and raising faces and putting hand in the air is worshipful posture.

Were I to participate in venerating relics I think I would have a hard time not falling into superstition. But that’s me.

Veneration of saints and relics of those saints is not required by the Catholic Church. And I think there are probably some who do cross the line, but this is out of ignorance, not due to Church teaching. If one has a hard time with knowing the difference then they should refrain from doing it.

 

[Techno2000]

When handkerchiefs or aprons that had merely touched his skin were placed on sick people, they were healed of their diseases, and evil spirits were expelled.
Acts 19:12

 

[dronald]

Well, I simply don’t agree with your premise. Worship comes from the heart, not from our physical posture (even though our physical posture may help our inner attitude). To demonstrate what I mean, do you believe that there is the possibility of some people who just go through the motions, doing all of the proper physical postures (on their knees, head bent, hands together) who are thinking only of where they are going to go to breakfast after the service? Are they “worshipping” God?

God sees our most inner being and knows who we “worship” and who we don’t, regardless of any outside appearance.

Some people worship money; that doesn’t mean they think it’s ‘God’. It’s just having too much importance placed on it. Likewise celebrities, saints, relics, whatever have you. So how can one know that they’re not worshiping something?

According to the Bible it seems too much reverence was placed in an angel or a person with a prostration towards them and thus it was considered ‘worship’ and strictly rebuked. Why wasn’t this considered veneration?:

Acts 10:25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.

26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man. "

Rev 22:8 I , John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

9 but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God. "

 

[spedteacherita]

When handkerchiefs or aprons that had merely touched his skin were placed on sick people, they were healed of their diseases, and evil spirits were expelled.
Acts 19:12

But Techno Paul was alive there…

 

[Stilldreamn]

When handkerchiefs or aprons that had merely touched his skin were placed on sick people, they were healed of their diseases, and evil spirits were expelled.
Acts 19:12

When I was a young girl, my family drove through a part of Canada on a vacation and I remember stopping at the Basilica of St. Anne de Beaupre. If I saw the relics I don’t recall them, but I do remember seeing tall pillars that were covered with canes, braces, and crutches that had been left by pilgrims. My Dad was uncomfortable so we left.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I have shared this a few times and think it fits perfect here.

I live in Fargo, ND that happens to be the home of the Diocese of Fargo. There was a statue of Mary that was presumed to have healing powers. The statue then went on a tour throughout the Diocese stopping in each parish. When it first came to the Cathedral, they had a small parade while carrying the statue on a golden platform. Then the lines were out the doors of people waiting to kiss, view and touch this statue. It remained in the Cathedral for so a few weeks. It was surrounded by flowers and candles. The bishop that allowed all of this is now the Archbishop of Denver.

There is nothing wrong with this and it is normal?

 

[JamalChristophr]

I have shared this a few times and think it fits perfect here.

I live in Fargo, ND that happens to be the home of the Diocese of Fargo. There was a statue of Mary that was presumed to have healing powers. The statue then went on a tour throughout the Diocese stopping in each parish. When it first came to the Cathedral, they had a small parade while carrying the statue on a golden platform. Then the lines were out the doors of people waiting to kiss, view and touch this statue. It remained in the Cathedral for so a few weeks. It was surrounded by flowers and candles. The bishop that allowed all of this is now the Archbishop of Denver.

There is nothing wrong with this and it is normal?

Our Lady receives hyper-dulia, which is a special catholic term. Dulia means veneration while Latria means adoration.

We honor Mary the mother of God very highly and it’s possible the statue has miraculous healing powers, but if it did, that power would have ultimately come from God. Having a high regard for Mary normally doesn’t take away from the worship due to her Son.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Our Lady receives hyper-dulia, which is a special catholic term. Dulia means veneration while Latria means adoration.

We honor Mary the mother of God very highly and it’s possible the statue has miraculous healing powers, but if it did, that power would have ultimately come from God. Having a high regard for Mary normally doesn’t take away from the worship due to her Son.

So you are ok with all they did? IMO that was crossing the thin line of veneration and worship

 

[JamalChristophr]

So you are ok with all they did? IMO that was crossing the thin line of veneration and worship

The main problem, I think, how does the Catholic Church define worship?

Then, we must ask, how do non-Catholics of various kinds define worship?

They are not the same. This is where problems arise, it seems to me.

 

[dronald]

Our Lady receives hyper-dulia, which is a special catholic term. Dulia means veneration while Latria means adoration.

We honor Mary the mother of God very highly and it’s possible the statue has miraculous healing powers, but if it did, that power would have ultimately come from God. Having a high regard for Mary normally doesn’t take away from the worship due to her Son.

But just because you act in ways that seem like worship and simultaneously say “I’m not worshiping” doesn’t mean it’s not worship. So where do you draw the line of “This is veneration, and that is worship”.

A rich Christian can on one hand say they don’t worship money but on the other hand put so much importance on it that it actually is worship.

 

[dronald]

The main problem, I think, how does the Catholic Church define worship?

Then, we must ask, how do non-Catholics of various kinds define worship?

They are not the same. This is where problems arise, it seems to me.

The New Testament on two accounts equates postrating ones self before another in reverence as worship.

 

[aidanbradypop]

The main problem, I think, how does the Catholic Church define worship?

Then, we must ask, how do non-Catholics of various kinds define worship?

They are not the same. This is where problems arise, it seems to me.

Then we can agree that we define it differently then

 

[pablope]

Serious question:

How does one know if they are venerating or worshiping something/someone?

At what point do your expressions of love take a leap from veneration to adoration?

The worship due to God is through sacrifice…starting in the OT with animal sacrifices…and done in the original Apostolic Churches, both east and west…through the Divine Liturgies…or the Mass…there is no such sacrifice offered for relics or the saints or Mary.

 

[dronald]

The worship due to God is through sacrifice…starting in the OT with animal sacrifices…and done in the original Apostolic Churches, both east and west…through the Divine Liturgies…or the Mass…there is no such sacrifice offered for relics or the saints or Mary.

So in the two cases of a man/angel being worshiped and the man being corrected; what were they sacrificing?

 

[schaeffer]

So you are ok with all they did? IMO that was crossing the thin line of veneration and worship

I think this comes back around to no one on the outside being able to read the heart and soul of another person.

And to the question of “is it possible to worship something accidentally?”

If those people feel in their mind, heart and soul that they are venerating…then who can argue and tell them “no, you’re worshiping!”

The fine line is for them and God to determine…or, in this case perhaps the St. And maybe if they fell on the wrong side of the fine line, the St would, as did Peter, call them back to proper behavior.

Lots of practices of various faiths seem odd to me, and many appear to me to be superstition, but I can’t call someone else who has a very different understanding and meaning of a thing.

For instance, I know various people who put “fairy houses” in their yard. Many do it because it’s cute and fanciful, but I know some who actually believe that fairies move into the houses and they leave out food and other treats for the fairies. Unless each person shared their belief about it with me…all I would know is that they both put fairy houses in their garden. I could jump to my own conclusion that all of them believed in and purposefully entertained fairies, but a good deal of the time I would be incorrect.

 

[pablope]

So you are ok with all they did? IMO that was crossing the thin line of veneration and worship

There is a different understanding of what proper worship is to God in both the Catholic and Orthodox.

The various protestant denoms have thrown their Catholic roots away…and have defined worship differently…so you have a conception or definition of worship that is a departure from how worship is understood in Catholic and Orthodox churches.

calledtocommunion.com/2009/07/ecclesial-deism/

‘Tradition’ becomes whatever one agrees with in the history of the Church, such as the Nicene Creed or Chalcedonian Christology…What makes it ‘authoritative’ for Mohler is that it agrees with his interpretation of Scripture. If he encounters something in the tradition that seems extra-biblical or opposed to Scripture he rejects it. For that reason, tradition does not authoritatively guide his interpretation. His interpretation picks out what counts as tradition, and then this tradition informs his interpretation.

As the quote above says…your concept of worship is affected by the Tradition you have been imbided in. What you see as “worship” is not seen as worship by a Catholic.

 

[pablope]

So in the two cases of a man/angel being worshiped and the man being corrected; what were they sacrificing?

I have no idea what you are talking about…you need to provide more details…and it also depends on how you define worship.

 

[pablope]

I have shared this a few times and think it fits perfect here.

I live in Fargo, ND that happens to be the home of the Diocese of Fargo. There was a statue of Mary that was presumed to have healing powers. The statue then went on a tour throughout the Diocese stopping in each parish. When it first came to the Cathedral, they had a small parade while carrying the statue on a golden platform. Then the lines were out the doors of people waiting to kiss, view and touch this statue. It remained in the Cathedral for so a few weeks. It was surrounded by flowers and candles. The bishop that allowed all of this is now the Archbishop of Denver.

There is nothing wrong with this and it is normal?

Yes…it goes to very early Christian practices…I do not know how far it goes…here are more pictures…
google.com/search?q=saint+processions+in+catholic&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&imgil=roGoF0pQrengLM%253A%253BrbnhHt4-B1GUyM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.museoorigini.it%25252Fpagina132.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=roGoF0pQrengLM%253A%252CrbnhHt4-B1GUyM%252C_&usg=__U-pqvx_QL1mWUyJ_omChXHRuX2c%3D&biw=1366&bih=677&ved=0CDUQyjc&ei=jsEBVbziItjpoASqs4GwBQ#imgrc=roGoF0pQrengLM%253A%3BrbnhHt4-B1GUyM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.museoorigini.it%252Fimgs%252FSiderno.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.museoorigini.it%252Fpagina132.html%3B554%3B305

 

[dronald]

I have no idea what you are talking about…you need to provide more details…and it also depends on how you define worship.

Acts 10:25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.

26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man. "

Rev 22:8 I , John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

9 but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God. "

 

[JamalChristophr]

The New Testament on two accounts equates postrating ones self before another in reverence as worship.

Well, when a Catholic kneels in front of a statue, they should be kneeling beccause they are offering their prayers up to God through the intercession of that saint. I do that in front of Mary at Church, but I’m asking for her intercession. It is God who is the source of all good. But I can see how it could be misunderstood.

I think it’s ok to kneel when a person is asking for a saint to intercede for them.