I can't get my protestant brain wrapped around this

[aidanbradypop]

I respectfully disagree. Thanks for the replies.

 

[dronald]

Well, when a Catholic kneels in front of a statue, they should be kneeling beccause they are offering their prayers up to God through the intercession of that saint. I do that in front of Mary at Church, but I’m asking for her intercession. It is God who is the source of all good. But I can see how it could be misunderstood.

I think it’s ok to kneel when a person is asking for a saint to intercede for them.

But why kiss statues, put them up on fancy golden plates, etc?

 

[schaeffer]

I have shared this a few times and think it fits perfect here.

I live in Fargo, ND that happens to be the home of the Diocese of Fargo. There was a statue of Mary that was presumed to have healing powers. The statue then went on a tour throughout the Diocese stopping in each parish. When it first came to the Cathedral, they had a small parade while carrying the statue on a golden platform. Then the lines were out the doors of people waiting to kiss, view and touch this statue. It remained in the Cathedral for so a few weeks. It was surrounded by flowers and candles. The bishop that allowed all of this is now the Archbishop of Denver.

There is nothing wrong with this and it is normal?

If you believe in the Catholic faith, then there is nothing wrong with it. It fits with their beliefs and traditions and makes sense, and is allowed, and perfectly fine.

If you don’t agree with the Catholic faith, then you might well feel it is very wrong and not normal.

Even within Christianity there are enough difference in theology that hackles are going to get raised over various practices, but in the end it is not much different than making judgements about the practices of a non Christian faith.

Some people charge that other faiths worship the devil…even faiths that have no concept of the devil and therefore cannot be intentionally worshiping it. Yet they are told they are, and sometimes told they are doing it accidentally and not realizing it.

This is pretty much the same situation. It’s a matter of interpretation and understanding. If a person believes that someone can unknowingly worship the devil, even if they don’t have any knowledge or belief of the devil, then I suppose one can make the same charge against another Christian, that they are doing something they ought not, even though they don’t mean to.

 

[JamalChristophr]

But why kiss statues, put them up on fancy golden plates, etc?

I never was a statue kisser my self.

But putting them on nice bases shows honor for the saints of God. Things that are now in Heaven deserve that special honor. It is a part of veneration.

 

[sallybutler]

But why kiss statues, put them up on fancy golden plates, etc?

What is different from those examples and putting a picture of a deceased relative in a gold or silver frame, from having a space on the bookshelf or piano with pictures of your ancestors, from kissing the picture of someone you love, from kissing the ground after a scary plane flight (which, by the way, usually involves kneeling).

Would you say people who did that were putting their relatives or the ground on the as the same level as God?

 

[dronald]

What is different from those examples and putting a picture of a deceased relative in a gold or silver frame, from having a space on the bookshelf or piano with pictures of your ancestors, from kissing the picture of someone you love, from kissing the ground after a scary plane flight (which, by the way, usually involves kneeling).

Would you say people who did that were putting their relatives or the ground on the as the same level as God?

Because Catholics are far more excessive.

 

[Tonaw]

I never was a statue kisser my self.

But putting them on nice bases shows honor for the saints of God. Things that are now in Heaven deserve that special honor. It is a part of veneration.

Yeah I think in our american culture it’s kinda hard to understand. Usually we are more reserved when it comes to kissing. Whereas in Italy they kiss everything!! lol

 

[pianistclare]

Because Catholics are far more excessive.

With all due respect, that’s just an opinion. In the five years I’ve been at the parish where I am employed, I’ve never seen anyone kiss anything but a crucifix during the Veneration of the Cross on Good Friday.

I’m hoping that net year for Lent, everyone will give up the whole Mary and Statues argument.
It’s fairly tiresome. Catholics get it, others don’t.
Restating everything every single week seems pointless.
People choose sides. that’s about it.

 

[pablope]

I respectfully disagree. Thanks for the replies.

So what else is new…right…

 

[dronald]

With all due respect, that’s just an opinion. In the five years I’ve been at the parish where I am employed, I’ve never seen anyone kiss anything but a crucifix during the Veneration of the Cross on Good Friday.

I’m hoping that net year for Lent, everyone will give up the whole Mary and Statues argument.
It’s fairly tiresome. Catholics get it, others don’t.
Restating everything every single week seems pointless.
People choose sides. that’s about it.

How does one ‘venerate’ a cross? Also, how does one worship a cross?

Again, these are honest questions I would like to know the answers to.

 

[aidanbradypop]

So what else is new…right…

We don’t always disagree

 

[pablope]

Acts 10:25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.

26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man. "

So true…isn’t it Dronald?

Rev 22:8 I , John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

9 but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God. "

Same question…what is your understanding of worship? Can you read John’s mind and heart?

 

[pablope]

We don’t always disagree

Except…‘Tradition’ becomes whatever one agrees with in the history of the Church, such as the Nicene Creed or Chalcedonian Christology…What makes it ‘authoritative’ for Mohler is that it agrees with his interpretation of Scripture. If he encounters something in the tradition that seems extra-biblical or opposed to Scripture he rejects it. For that reason,tradition does not authoritatively guide his interpretation. His interpretation picks out what counts as tradition, and then this tradition informs his interpretation.

True? Do you disagree?

 

[JustaServant]

I think some of ya’ll are making a mountain out of a molehill.
In the Old Testament there were instances of an object being used as a reminder to Israel of a particular incident, a miracle, a battle, ect. The ancient world understood, more than we do today, that we are physical creatures living in a physical world. So God used the physical to communicate with human beings. Man, not God separates the physical from the spiritual. So that physical object would be ‘venerated’ by the Jewish people for the purpose of reminding them when God delivered them, or as a Covenant sign. They weren’t worshiping the object, they worshiped the God behind the object, not the object itself. They venerated the object, but worshiped God.
Venerate means to regard with respect, reverence, and heartfelt deference. It is not the same thing as worship. Believe or not, even pagans understood this. It was* the other god* that replaced the true God that the pagans worshiped when they knelt before an idol of Zeus of Apollo.
Hope that helps.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Except…‘Tradition’ becomes whatever one agrees with in the history of the Church, such as the Nicene Creed or Chalcedonian Christology…What makes it ‘authoritative’ for Mohler is that it agrees with his interpretation of Scripture. If he encounters something in the tradition that seems extra-biblical or opposed to Scripture he rejects it. For that reason,tradition does not authoritatively guide his interpretation. His interpretation picks out what counts as tradition, and then this tradition informs his interpretation.

True? Do you disagree?

True. Mohler is Bible Alone. Not sure how that relates to this thread.

 

[JamalChristophr]

With all due respect, that’s just an opinion. In the five years I’ve been at the parish where I am employed, I’ve never seen anyone kiss anything but a crucifix during the Veneration of the Cross on Good Friday.

I’m hoping that net year for Lent, everyone will give up the whole Mary and Statues argument.
It’s fairly tiresome. Catholics get it, others don’t.
Restating everything every single week seems pointless.
People choose sides. that’s about it.

The second most common is kissing baby Jesus at Christmas, of course.

Well, Clare, we could talk about gay and lesbian issues if you would prefer?

 

[Per_Crucem]

The second most common is kissing baby Jesus at Christmas, of course.

One of the things, I think, that emphasizes why it is part historical church practice to venerate statues of the saints, the cross, Christ, etc. is a question to Protestants who consider it a form of idolatry:

How many of you, if given the opportunity, would take a hammer, or your foot and stomp or strike an image of the cross, a crucifix, the Theotokos, etc. and not have it bother your conscience whatsoever?

If you cannot picture yourself doing so, does it help to make you understand why there are those who do the opposite, and venerate them?

 

[pianistclare]

How does one ‘venerate’ a cross? Also, how does one worship a cross?

Again, these are honest questions I would like to know the answers to.

Part of the Good Friday Liturgy (not a Mass, btw) is to go up to a Crucifix and kiss the feet of Our Lord represented there. It don’t while the choir sings (generally) the Reproaches (Psalm 135).

Here is the text of the reproaches:

My people, what have I done to you?
How have I offended you? Answer me!

I led you out of Egypt, from slavery to freedom,
but you led your Savior to the cross.

My people, what have I done to you?
How have I offended you? Answer me!

Holy is God!
Holy and strong!
Holy immortal One, have mercy on us!

For forty years I led you safely through the desert.
I fed you with manna from heaven
and brought you to a land of plenty;
but you led your Savior to the cross.

Holy is God!
Holy and strong!
Holy immortal One, have mercy on us!

What more could I have done for you?
I planted you as my finest vine,
but you yielded only bitterness:
when I was thirsty you gave me vinegar to drink,
and you peirced your Savior with a lance.

Holy is God!
Holy and strong!
Holy immortal One, have mercy on us!

For you sake I scourged your captors and their firstborn sons,
but you brought your scourges down on me.

My people, what have I done to you?
How have I offended you? Answer me!

I led you from slavery from freedom
and drowned your captors in the sea,
but you handed me over to your high priests.

My people, what have I done to you?
How have I offended you? Answer me!

I opened the sea before you,
but you opened my side with a spear.

My people, what have I done to you?
How have I offended you? Answer me!

I led you on your way in a pillar of cloud,
but you led me to Pilate’s court.

My people, what have I done to you?
How have I offended you? Answer me!

At this point in our Holy Week observance, Christ has been executed, He is gone from us, and we are profoundly sad. We venerate the crucifix by kissing Jesus feet or any part of the cross itself out of love and remembering the great price He paid for our salvation.
It’s a sign of love. And on Good Friday, especially sorrow.

 

[wmscott]

How does one ‘venerate’ a cross? Also, how does one worship a cross?

Again, these are honest questions I would like to know the answers to.

Adoration or veneration of an image or representation of Christ’s cross does not mean that we actually adore the material image, of course, but rather what it represents. In kneeling before the crucifix and kissing it we are paying the highest honor to our Lord’s cross as the instrument of our salvation. Because the Cross is inseparable from His sacrifice, in reverencing His Cross we, in effect, adore Christ. Thus we affirm: ‘We adore Thee, O Christ, and we bless Thee because by Thy Holy Cross Thou has Redeemed the World.’

Taken from the Catholic News Agency

 

[spedteacherita]

Many Catholics find it hard and don’t understand it much either.

The best approach, I believe, is to start with references in scripture relating to relics and work out from there.

Jamal, thanks! I have a lot of homework ahead of me!

:coffeeread:

Look what I started in here… :bigyikes: