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SyroMalankara
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You asked “why not pray directly to God”, we do. And we also ask Saints to pray for us. Why limit to one or the other when it’s been revealed that God answers the prayers of the righteous?
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pablope
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SyroMalankara
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No, we don’t claim that the soul in heaven hears your request by their own power. The Catholic claim is that they are in the presence of God without distractions, praising and interceding for us. They’re ‘hearing’ our request for intercession is by God’s grace. There’s no reason to think the absurdity that this makes them “all-knowing like God” anymore than asking you to pray makes you all-powerful like God or even an angelic being.
Saints aren’t asked because the result could be faster. They are asked for the same reason you are, but unlike you, they are without the baggage of distractions of this world.
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Mousey
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Others have made good points to your objection. It is interesting you pose a question “The question for us is what Scripture defines as worship” which you do not answer.
I would say that Scripture defines it as Webster does.
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Per_Crucem
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It does not mean that they are all-knowing. It does mean they are aware of the trevails of the rest of the Body, of which we and they are still members…which Scripture confirms.
What does it mean that the prayer of the righteous man availeth much, then?
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aidanbradypop
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aidanbradypop
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pablope
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Your interpretive tradition colors your understanding of Scripture…which is based on the rejection of the catholic roots of the Reformation.
I has been pointed out, the intercession of saints have Hebraic and OT roots…and its rejection has roots in the Reformation.
Actually, it was the pagans who first rejected this practice of intercession of the saints…who abhored the early Christians for this.
But it does not limit going through the saints…
A Church council that said Mary is sinless disagrees with you on this one.
So what have you done to honor Mary in your own way? How have your congregation honored Mary?
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aidanbradypop
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I agree
I hope they pray for us. Lord knows we need it
One could argue that it also teaches that there is not a need to do so
Yes I know
[QUOTEPSo what have you done to honor Mary in your own way? How have your congregation honored Mary?
[/QUOTE]
I doubt you will see us having a parade like the Cathedral in town.
Off the top of my brain, we honor her for bringing the Savior of mankind into this world. She is the person God chose to bring his Son into flesh. We have no statues, prayers, or doctrines, yet she is forever honored as that Mother of Jesus Christ.
Personally? I give her a lot of respect. I can’t even imagine all the suffering she ensured to bring forth the Savior of the world.
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kotim
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For those who doubt, read scripture very carefuly, Christ never ever that we are aware of refused his mother anything, when he changed water to wine it was at the request of his mother, even though he said it was not yet time, he changed his mind at the request of his mother. There are other examples. Simply put the more people who pray for us to God the better and I think if I was asked an odds on question such as would I rather have Mary his mother asking to save my soul than the local joe blow on the corner, I know which one I would choose if I was a betting man.
Also it is acknowledged that we have guardian angels, well I can assure you in theory God would not or should not have need for such beings, but never the less we have them.
Do not limit yourself to a level when there is no such level.
In Christ
Tim
Also it is acknowledged that we have guardian angels, well I can assure you in theory God would not or should not have need for such beings, but never the less we have them.
Do not limit yourself to a level when there is no such level.
In Christ
Tim
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aidanbradypop
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Tim
I am all about prayer circles and boards. They are wonderful! We must also remember that God answers prayer in His time and according to His Will.
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dronald
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Often when I see something like this that is so incredibly important to Catholics; I imagine Jesus would clear that up. There are references to Mary in Scripture, but nothing that should give the exceeding reverence we find among Catholics. Surely she was great, and we all accept that; but with Catholics it does seem over the top to me personally.
Jesus could have said, “Truly I say to you Mary is the greatest and should be revered among all human beings. Make statues of her, pray to her and leave gifts at her statues” etc. And while she is commended highly in Scripture, we must not forget that when Jesus could have made such statements He said things like this:
Mark 3:32 And a crowd was sitting around him, and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, seeking you. "
33 And he answered them, "Who are my mother and my brothers? "
34 And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
35 **For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother. "
**
Can anyone deny here that Jesus put all women who do the will of God on the same level as other women? Couldn’t Jesus have clarified Mary’s role here?
Again,
Luke 11:27 As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, "Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed! "
28 But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it! "
Even in Luke, the same book Mary says “all generations will call me blessed” this is the teaching Jesus gave.
Why not say “Mary is far more blessed, and also other people will be blessed but not as much so as my mother.”
It just seems like Jesus passed up some opportunities to clear the air assuming Catholics are correct. However, if I am correct it seems Jesus really did take the time to explain so with passages like that.
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kotim
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Aidan, my point of posting is that you seek to limit where there is no such limit, it is fine if you think that no one else can enhance your hope of salvation through pleading with God, that is your option, but it is clear in scripture that such things are beneficial. The faith has many nuances available to those who seek them, for if it was not then nigh on no person could be saved.
In Christ
Tim
In Christ
Tim
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PRmerger
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Absolutely right.
No one looks at this man and believes he is worshipping his bible:
Or this little boy and think he is worshipping his bed:
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Or this guy and think he is worshipping the box of kleenex:
So I think we should apply the same logic to folks doing this:
http://media.nola.com/northshore_impact/photo/31bones2-4404c2fd48346074_large.jpg
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spedteacherita
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I’m sorry. I really didn’t mean apparitions (I think) in this post. We were talking about relics and not apparitions.
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spedteacherita
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Hi, Tim,
I think we all, in some way “limit where there is no such limit” where we’re trying to understand and sort thru the different beliefs. It would be much easier if we could take God’s Word (Jesus) as He taught us and not try to conform it to what we want to believe or how we think it should be. I’m not pointing the finger at anyone just trying to make the point that God is so much bigger than all of us. I can’t wait to get there and just “be” in His presence!! All the saints and angels raising their voices in praise!!
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PRmerger
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Was your sweetheart like this?Good thing you’re not a guy! I tried that one many years ago and as I recall it didn’t go over real well.
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spedteacherita
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wmscott
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Hi PRmerger when visiting my “Protestant” family we go to their services after Mass, there have been many times I have seen folks kneeling and prostrate around the “alter”.
Kinda of reminds me of Luke 6:42 “42” Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye?
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SyroMalankara
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I’ve asked this time and again, and no protestant has ever clearly explained how this is ok and not excess, not worship, not idolatry, not against the command of making in image and likeness:
http://img003.lazysports.info/sport...xvii_vince_lombardi_trophy_WxZHbA9b.sized.jpg
http://www.bellamoviesite.com/resources/news/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/42kiss.jpg
http://blogs-images.forbes.com/kurtbadenhausen/files/2013/02/200x3003.jpg
They even have parades in it’s honor, thousands show up, where people show it devotion and respect. Some of these players, attendees, and team management are ministers and fundamentalist Christians who believe Catholics sin by going overboard with saints, statutes, icons, Mary and heroes and martyrs of the faith. Hypocrisy much?
http://img003.lazysports.info/sport...xvii_vince_lombardi_trophy_WxZHbA9b.sized.jpg
http://www.bellamoviesite.com/resources/news/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/42kiss.jpg
http://blogs-images.forbes.com/kurtbadenhausen/files/2013/02/200x3003.jpg
They even have parades in it’s honor, thousands show up, where people show it devotion and respect. Some of these players, attendees, and team management are ministers and fundamentalist Christians who believe Catholics sin by going overboard with saints, statutes, icons, Mary and heroes and martyrs of the faith. Hypocrisy much?
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