I can't get my protestant brain wrapped around this

[PRmerger]

I am also curious about this, because I have heard people (of various Christian traditions) say that some people worship demons unaware that that is what they are doing. Others have said that some people of other faiths are actually worshiping the same God (which of course would include Christ and the Holy Spirit) as Christians, unaware that that is who they are truly worshiping.

Is there an official Church teaching on this or are these ideas and understandings of the faithful. I’ve always wondered.

I don’t understand how someone could worship something and not be aware of it.

There is no Catholic teaching on this. Just common sense.

You can’t worship God without knowing you’re doing so. You can’t worship demons without knowing you’re doing so.

However, some good folks who never knew Christ may have known the Logos, and it is through this knowledge that they are introduced to salvation. (As Peter Kreeft says: When Plato or Socrates knew the truth, the logos, they knew Christ, unless John lies in chapter 1 of his gospel).

And some folks who entertain the use of Ouija boards, necromancy, seances may not be worshipping demons, they are certainly being introduced to him.

 

[PRmerger]

Ah, so it is a cultural thing. Thanks for the info!

Sending cards to thank someone for praying for them?

It’s the same culture that you are immersed in presumably, so not sure what your point is.

You object to flowers in front of a saint’s statue but not to sending a greeting card to a friend to thank her?

That’s not a cultural thing. It’s an illogical thing.

 

[PRmerger]

Imagine if a Hebrew in Moses’ camp erected a statue of his deceased uncle and prayed to him with it and lit candles. He could protest that he was only offering doulia, but he still would’ve been stoned for idolatry

I don’t see any evidence in Scripture for this.

In fact, I think the Jews did indeed venerate their ancestors.

No good Jew would have been stoned for giving homage to his relatives who had departed before him.

Matthew 23:29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.

Ah, yes! Thank you for this!

Jesus himself acknowledged this practice.

Now, it’s true that he’s admonishing the Pharisees in this passage, but it’s** not** for venerating their ancestors with dulia, but rather for being hypocritical about it.

Are there any passages in Scripture of Jesus knocking down these “monuments of the righteous” as being idolatrous?

 

[wmscott]

I don’t see any evidence in Scripture for this.

In fact, I think the Jews did indeed venerate their ancestors.

No good Jew would have been stoned for giving homage to his relatives who had departed before him.

Ah, yes! Thank you for this!

Jesus himself acknowledged this practice.

Now, it’s true that he’s admonishing the Pharisees in this passage, but it’s** not** for venerating their ancestors with dulia, but rather for being hypocritical about it.

Are there any passages in Scripture of Jesus knocking down these “monuments of the righteous” as being idolatrous?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0ld1kpZAm1qbgytb.gif

I noticed the Galic Bard ignored post 208. How is it that the Jewish people constructed the Arc of the Covenent complete with graven images of angles, placed in a holy place for worship of God, and not be accused of idol worship?

 

[PRmerger]

I noticed the Galic Bard ignored post 208. How is it that the Jewish people constructed the Arc of the Covenent complete with graven images of angles, placed in a holy place for worship of God, and not be accused of idol worship?

Yep. :yup:

 

[schaeffer]

Sending cards to thank someone for praying for them?

It’s the same culture that you are immersed in presumably, so not sure what your point is.

You object to flowers in front of a saint’s statue but not to sending a greeting card to a friend to thank her?

That’s not a cultural thing. It’s an illogical thing.

I never objected to anything. I asked questions seeking answers. I even thanked you for your answer.

What is the problem here? I am not arguing with you.

 

[PRmerger]

I never objected to anything. I asked questions seeking answers. I even thanked you for your answer.

What is the problem here? I am not arguing with you.

Fair enough.

So you don’t object to a Catholic placing flowers before a statue of a saint?

 

[schaeffer]

Fair enough.

So you don’t object to a Catholic placing flowers before a statue of a saint?

No. Catholics should follow the dictates of their faith.

 

[SteveVH]

You need to post a warning before you make coffee come out my nose.

Sorry about that. lol.

 

[PRmerger]

No. Catholics should follow the dictates of their faith.

I think you are operating under some misapprehensions about the dictates of Catholicism.

There is NOTHING in Catholicism that dictates giving flowers to anyone–statues, saints, or people.

And to make this question bigger: are you proclaiming here that it is morally correct for any member of his faith to follow the dictates of his faith? So if a preacher dictates that an elderly man must take a teen bride, for example, he would be compelled to do so?

 

[schaeffer]

I think you are operating under some misapprehensions about the dictates of Catholicism.

I believe Catholics should follow the dictates of their faith. I wasn’t proclaiming any generalization about every possible dictate in any conceivable faith. If you would like to explore that maybe start a separate thread so as not to derail this one.

 

[PRmerger]

I believe Catholics should follow the dictates of their faith.

Is this because you don’t see anything wrong with Catholic dictates?

 

[pablope]

No, I didn’t. What I did say is that doulos in the context of offering to men and angels what is due to God (faith, trust, spiritual devotion) is pagan and idolatrous.

It was the other way around, actually, it was the pagans who disbelieved this Jewish and Christian practice:

calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/

Brown challenged my view that the place of saints and relics in the church was a mere holdover from paganism, and that the practice was somehow peripheral to true Christianity. Instead, Brown painted a picture of ancient Christianity and paganism in which relics were indispensable to the former, and repulsive to the latter. Far from a holdover from paganism, the place of relics in the Church appeared as something intensely Jewish, Hebraic, and Old Testament. Pagans, like Julian-the-Apostate, found the practice revolting and legislated against it. (Paganism, with its notions of ritual purity, had strictly delimited the realm of divine worship and neatly separated it from the realm of corpses and the dead.)
Peter Brown:
On this point, the rise of Christianity in the pagan world was met by deep religious anger. We can chart the rise to prominence of the Christian church most faithfully by listening to pagan reactions to the cult of martyrs. For the progress of this cult spelled out for the pagans a slow and horrid crumbling of ancient barriers.1

Imagine if a Hebrew in Moses’ camp erected a statue of his deceased uncle and prayed to him with it and lit candles. He could protest that he was only offering doulia, but he still would’ve been stoned for idolatry.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Pablo - excellent

From your link:
*Rabbi Shik explains this apparent anomaly in the name of his teacher, the Chatam Sofer: When one Jew approaches another and tells of the pain he is suffering, the other Jew feels it just as he does. Now they are both in need of prayer. The Jew does not feel he is praying for an “other”–he is praying for himself.

In other words, all Jews can be considered as one body. If the toe is hurting, it needs the head and the heart to help it. So too, if I am in need, I can call upon all other Jews–and especially those who are the head and the heart of our people–to pray for me as well. Because if one Jew is hurting, we are all hurting.*

Wow, this makes even more sense according to Christ that the Church is His Body - that analogy of the body parts makes St. Paul’s teaching that “there is no Jew or Greek” much more meaningful - In Christ - in the Church - the one Body is not ethnic or tribal nor limited by death, time or space - but encompasses all the baptized. Another support to the Apostolic teaching about the Communion of Saints and praying for the deceased.

 

[Peter_J]

Even though I tried to stop reading that lousy thread, I couldn’t help seeing this

Really? One can worship Christ without intending to worship him? This is truly an absurd notion. Please demonstrate how this would work, exactly. I am trying to imagine Jesus saying to this person: “I know you didn’t intend to, but you accidentally worshipped me and now you are in heaven”.

You need to post a warning before you make coffee come out my nose.

and thinking of this youtube.com/watch?v=bXWlSkFDaVY .

 

[schaeffer]

Is this because you don’t see anything wrong with Catholic dictates?

If you mean “wrong” as in anything morally reprehensible or against common decency, no I do not, as far as anything I know about Catholicism and what it teaches.

I do not believe that Catholicism holds the ultimate truth. Not sure if that is what you meant by “wrong”.

 

[PRmerger]

If you mean “wrong” as in anything morally reprehensible or against common decency, no I do not, as far as anything I know about Catholicism and what it teaches.

I do not believe that Catholicism holds the ultimate truth. Not sure if that is what you meant by “wrong”.

Kind of.

So you don’t believe it’s wrong (as in, not the right thing to do) to, say, worship the Blessed Sacrament?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

And you don’t believe it’s wrong (as in, not consonant with reality) to profess that Mary never sinned?

 

[SteveVH]

Kind of.

So you don’t believe it’s wrong (as in, not the right thing to do) to, say, worship the Blessed Sacrament?

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-g...0x200/g=G000090UkuhX7Ooo/I0000J6Fqj6pEzKE.jpg

And you don’t believe it’s wrong (as in, not consonant with reality) to profess that Mary never sinned?

Where did you find this image? I’m sure it is just the lighting, but the priest’s face is enough to scare small children.

 

[PRmerger]

Where did you find this image? I’m sure it is just the lighting, but the priest’s face is enough to scare small children.

I just googled “adoration” and “Steubenville”.

Yes, definitely the lighting!

 

[schaeffer]

Kind of.

So you don’t believe it’s wrong (as in, not the right thing to do) to, say, worship the Blessed Sacrament?

And you don’t believe it’s wrong (as in, not consonant with reality) to profess that Mary never sinned?

Part of it is contextual. For instance in Catholicism some things are considered sins which are not in other faiths. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think that the Catholic Church holds it sinful that non Catholics don’t follow the precepts of the Church, but it would be a sin if a Catholic knowingly did.

It is not wrong, from a Catholic view point, for a Catholic to worship the Blessed Sacrament, but it would be wrong, from the viewpoint of some other religions to do the same.

Since the Catholic Church defines what sin is for it’s own, if they say Mary never sinned, according to their definition of sin,then it’s reality.

Whether or not Catholics worship the Blessed Sacrament or understand Mary to be sinless isn’t a matter of right or wrong to ME. I’m not Catholic. Those things are not moral issues. (well at least not to me, not sure if they are considered moral issues to Catholics)

I have no way to know if Mary did or didn’t do anything other than the few things referenced in scripture. Nor do I have a vested interest in any argument on the subject.