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SteveVH
Guest
I thought it was probably from a Steubenville conference. I’ve attended many and it looked familiar. What an awesome thing to witness.
Also, thanks for the Lenten Meditation!
Peace.
Steve
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Also, thanks for the Lenten Meditation!
Peace.
Steve
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PRmerger
Guest
I don’t really understand the “It’s wrong for you but not for me” paradigm.
Either worshipping the Blessed Sacrament is right, or it is a monstrous thing to do. Blatant idolatry.
Either Mary sinned or she didn’t.
Imagine substituting the Westboro Baptist Church for “the Catholic Church” in the above.
Would you still feel the same way? It’s find for WBC folks to picket the funerals of US soldiers, but not for you and me?
Is that your position?
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed.
Also, did you see the funny I made just for you?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12827692&postcount=155
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SteveVH
Guest
Also, did you see the funny I made just for you?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12827692&postcount=155
I can’t believe I missed that post. Hilarious! Yes it was just like that, except for the smile.
Thanks, you just brightened my day.
God bless.
Steve
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PRmerger
Guest
I can’t believe I missed that post. Hilarious! Yes it was just like that, except for the smile.
Thanks, you just brightened my day.
God bless.
Steve
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schaeffer
Guest
My position is that I have no place telling you what to worship and whether or not an honored person in your faith ever sinned. That is for YOUR CHURCH to decide. I don’t care. I’m not invested in it. It’s not a moral situation.I don’t really understand the “It’s wrong for you but not for me” paradigm.
Either worshipping the Blessed Sacrament is right, or it is a monstrous thing to do. Blatant idolatry.
Either Mary sinned or she didn’t.
Imagine substituting the Westboro Baptist Church for “the Catholic Church” in the above.
Would you still feel the same way? It’s find for WBC folks to picket the funerals of US soldiers, but not for you and me?
Is that your position?
Whether or not you engage in idolatry is between you and your god and your church. Same with blasphemy.
Those are cases of personal beliefs and internal religious ceremonies.
I have no way of knowing if Mary sinned. Please refer to your Church’s teaching on the issue, no matter how many times you ask me, I can’t tell you if that is factual or not.
I don’t see a connect between you worshiping in the confines of your church and WBP picketing a funeral.
I do think there are things that people can do withing the confines of their church’s walls that are immoral and wrong, to my knowledge none of those things are taught or encouraged by the Catholic Church.
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PRmerger
Guest
Morality is just doing what we ought to do and avoiding doing what we ought not do.
So if we ought to give veneration to the saints, then it is indeed a moral issue.
So if someone in my church is sinning, wouldn’t you feel an obligation to tell us?
Understood.
But you do understand that either she did sin or she didn’t. Both things can’t be true.
Are we agreed on that?
But if there were, you’d be morally obligated to point that out to Catholics, right?
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schaeffer
Guest
Whether or not you give veneration to a particular deceased person that your church says is worthy of veneration is an matter of obedience. Whether or not you are obedient to your Church is not a moral issue for me, who is not a part of your church.
I am not a cop for the Catholic Magisterium (I apologize if I reference the wrong thing, I am guessing that is the proper word from things I have read here)
I don’t feel obligated to tell you if you are sinning according to the precepts of your church. I’m not going knocking on any neighbor’s doors on Sunday to make sure the Catholic one’s are attending Church.
If I know you are beating your kids, stealing from neighbors and backing into the neighbor’s mailboxes and not paying restitution. I will likely say something to you and I will surely say something to police.
I understand that according to the definition of sin in your Church that is true.
If I knew that there were illegal things, or things that were truly harming people within the confines of the Church, I would report it to the authorities. From what I have read on CAF it is not a requirement, even within the church (but that might have been only individuals opinions) to call every person they encounter out on moral issues.
From the limited knowledge I have of the New Testament, I believe that believers are told to call out their brethren, and if the brethren does not repent to bring them before the church.
I am not brethren and will not call you out on church related matters, nor report you to church authority.
Clearly, from this discussion, there are things that are considered moral issues within the church, such as veneration of saints and believing Mary is sinless that are morally meaningless in any other context.
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PRmerger
Guest
Is it just Catholicism or is it* any* church that you feel this way?
For example, if someone is obedient to the Church of Satan, would you feel he is being moral?
What a peculiar comment. I don’t think anyone here has suggested that you are.
Nor has anyone demanded that you do this.
However, if a church has a precept that they go around an African American neighborhood putting out racist flyers, would you be ok with that?
Why? What if it’s a precept of our church?
LOL! Ummm…no. That is a precept of basic logic. Something cannot be both A and not-A at the same time.
See: basic principles of logic.
It has nothing to do with “the definition of sin” in the CC.
So the conclusion I must get is that you don’t see anything harmful in the CC?
You are correct.
Yes. You are very Catholic when you profess this.
It’s peculiar that you are subscribing to a precept of the church, yet not a member of it.
So now I’m even more confused.
Not at all. If we are idolizers, then that is an issue of great import. It is a violation of the first commandment.
#definitelyamoralissue
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schaeffer
Guest
Obedience is not always an issue of morality if it is regarding something that is morally neutral.
If a church tells their members to refrain from listening to secular music, it is morally neutral outside of that church. It doesn’t matter to me whether they listen or do not listen.
If the Church of Satan tells their members to hand sew capes and read their literature daily, it’s morally neutral, It doesn’t matter to me if they sew capes or read their literature or refrain from doing so.
I don’t think anyone suggested that I was either. I sometimes make statements that are not in direct response to another post. Imagine that!
No, but since you did ask me if I felt I should, I thought I’d answer.
No I would not. That is not something that is confined to their church, it is out in the community and it is not a morally neutral act.
See above.
Yes, actually they can. It is a sin for Catholics to not fast on days required by the Church. It is not a sin for people outside the faith to not fast on those days.
I am not bound to the laws of another country until and unless I am on their territory. Their laws are their laws, but I am only bound to follow them under certain circumstances.
See: basic principles of logic.
If you fail to see that it does, that’s your issue.
Nothing I am aware of.
Profess? I didn’t know that quoting your scripture to you was a profession of anything, well, other than that I probably don’t have the quote exactly right.
I am sure there are many things I and others subscribe to that happen to be precepts of the Catholic or other church’s, I don’t see much peculiar in that.
Yes I have been getting the sense that you are. You keep repeating the same questions to me. I also get the sense that you want me to speak out against your church and it’s teachings. As I’ve suggested before, perhaps starting your own thread on the subject of a teaching you would like people to speak out against would be a good idea.
It’s an issue of great import for you. And, so we come back round to the original focus of this thread, “what constitutes idolatry”. And it has already been made clear that what constitutes idolatry varies among people, even among Christians.
If you worship nothing other than God, then you are not, by your own definition committing idolatry. If you know you are right with God, then I see no reason to be concerned with the opinion of others on the matter.
But it’s possible you have good reasons for that concern that I do not understand.
If you or anyone else practices idolatry, I would think you are only harming yourself, it takes nothing away from God. He existed (as far as I understand) long before there were humans to respect or disrespect him.
I truly believe that when other believers call one another out on such practices, they are doing so because they worry about the person, not because they think it’s taking away from God. But again, I may be misunderstanding this.
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PRmerger
Guest
Well, it’s an inutile comment then.
Imagine if I said, in response to your comments, “Well, I’m not going to parade around in clown costume, so don’t even think about asking me to!”
Your response would be, validly, “Ummm…who asked you to do that!”
And what if I responded, “I don’t think anyone suggested that I was either. I sometimes make statements that are not in direct response to another post. Imagine that!”
I would give you permission to do this:
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schaeffer
Guest
I don’t think you or anyone else needs permission to do that or to respond in any other way, As long as it doesn’t violate the forum rules, post what you like!
J
jlhargus
Guest
Originally Posted by jlhargus View Post
I find that hard to believe. So you have never asked anyone to pray for you because you only pray directly to God? Do you also tell those who ask for your prayers to pray directly to God themselves?
Scripture clearly shows all prayers Do Not go directly to God. Scripture also clearly show prayers of saints on earth going through saints and angels in heaven.
[Rv5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 … 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.]
[Rv 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should Offer it with the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s Hand.]
Again scripture tells us saints in heaven rejoice in the presents of the angles when a sinner repents.
[Lk15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. 8 … 9 … 10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.] The saints in heaven, in the presence of angels rejoice every time a sinner repents.
[Mt18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones for I say unto you That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. ]
Jesus says their angels behold the face of his Father. The angels stand in the presence of God. They have continual access to the Father. The angel serves as the child’s intercessor before God, otherwise what’s the point?
[HB 12:1 Wherefore seeing, we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses let us lay aside every weight and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,]
If they see surely they will pray for us, wouldn’t you? Knowing this we can lay aside every weight as we have many in heaven praying for us. The Church is universal in time on earth and eternity. That one body of Christ, that vine, is united in the Holy Spirit and is one with Christ, in heaven, who is the Head of the body the Church.
[Eph3:1414 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.]
I find that hard to believe. So you have never asked anyone to pray for you because you only pray directly to God? Do you also tell those who ask for your prayers to pray directly to God themselves?
Scripture clearly shows all prayers Do Not go directly to God. Scripture also clearly show prayers of saints on earth going through saints and angels in heaven.
[Rv5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 … 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.]
[Rv 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should Offer it with the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s Hand.]
Again scripture tells us saints in heaven rejoice in the presents of the angles when a sinner repents.
[Lk15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. 8 … 9 … 10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.] The saints in heaven, in the presence of angels rejoice every time a sinner repents.
[Mt18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones for I say unto you That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. ]
Jesus says their angels behold the face of his Father. The angels stand in the presence of God. They have continual access to the Father. The angel serves as the child’s intercessor before God, otherwise what’s the point?
[HB 12:1 Wherefore seeing, we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses let us lay aside every weight and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,]
If they see surely they will pray for us, wouldn’t you? Knowing this we can lay aside every weight as we have many in heaven praying for us. The Church is universal in time on earth and eternity. That one body of Christ, that vine, is united in the Holy Spirit and is one with Christ, in heaven, who is the Head of the body the Church.
[Eph3:1414 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.]
I agree all in grace are saints whether in heaven or earth. We see elders (saints) in heaven and angels presenting the prayers of saints on earth to God. So it is clear all prayers do not go directly to God.
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PRmerger
Guest
You are absolutely correct.
BTW, don’t even think about telling my archbishop that he can’t come to Catholic homes and demand that they turn over their new car to the archdiocese.
(“I sometimes make statements that are not in direct response to another post. Imagine that!”)
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