I can't stop thinking about this comment from Jorge Cardinale Bergoglio (Pope Francis)

[Celtic_Maiden]

It never pays to jump ahead of the Church. They want the Church to conform to the current culture.

Obedience is better than sacrifice.:harp:

 

[runningdude]

Every few months, we get a new poster that staunchly defends his oddball position, neatly refuting every honest critique or error pointed out.

That’s simply not true. You’re talking about “ethnic” Catholic parishes. Depending on the area one group (say the Irish) came first. When the next flood of Catholics came from another part of the world (say Italy), the first group treated them poorly. Their response was to build a grander church. When the next group came (say the Germans) the process continued on and on.

*Judas Iscariot: Why this waste! This money spent building and maintaining a grand church could have been saved for 10,000 days wages and given to the poor…

Jesus Christ: Leave them alone; they has done a good thing for me. The poor you will always have with you, and whenever you wish you can do good to them, but you will not always have me. *

After Matthew 26

Not only were the ethnic divisions very unhealthy, the structures they build were difficult and expensive to maintain. They were also plagued by several Masses each, every Sunday.

I don’t see how holding mass in somebody’s garage when there is a grand church a five minute walk away, would attract more parishioners. When the distance was too far, the main parish would often build a simple “mission” parish to provide a dignified place of worship closer to the affected members of the faithful.

Why should it take 8 years of study for a man to be ordained so that he can celebrate the Mass? If it’s actually a screening process, far too many bad ones still get through.

The Mass is well defined. Why 8 years? I really like what Francis said…

The church’s clergy has always been among the most educated in society. You shouldn’t send the poor man out ill equipped to handle all those who are too “smart” for church. You wouldn’t want the priest unaware of the jeopardy divorce and attempted remarriage puts on someone’s soul. You wouldn’t want a priest unaware that a woman who receives an abortion or a doctor who performs one cannot receive sacramental absolution without first lifting her or his excommunication.

Teaching all these things takes time. They may sound like “technicalities”, but the church cannot accept risking humanity’s salvation by under educating and under forming her clergy.

 

[BillyT926]

the process is fine the way it is

 

[babochka]

I do not understand the concept of priests simplex. Is it really that, in the ordination rite for priests, the powers of sacrifice and of hearing confessions can be conferred separately? That seems odd to me.

A priest must have faculties from the Bishop to hear confessions validly. I once heard of a case of a saint (I’m sorry, I can’t remember who), ordained to the priesthood because of his great holiness, but was not given faculties to hear confessions because he was not considered bright enough.

 

[YoungTradCath]

A priest must have faculties from the Bishop to hear confessions validly. I once heard of a case of a saint (I’m sorry, I can’t remember who), ordained to the priesthood because of his great holiness, but was not given faculties to hear confessions because he was not considered bright enough.

Yes, but I was under the impression that a simplex priest is not just a priest who doesn’t have the faculties, but who doesn’t even have the power/ability to hear confessions. I was thinking that, because the power to hear confessions is conferred separately in the ordination rite–or at least it is in the 1962 Form of it–that what makes a priest simplex is simply not conferring that on him. But then I was thinking, is that even possible?

 

[anonymous1995]

This led to “why not ordain more priests – including married ones?” Why make the education and formation so long? It has proven that years of college and seminary do not weed out all the problem men. What if the focus was put more on a very rigorous selection process and then a formation that amounted to night school or weekend school?

Maybe there could even be a second “variety” of priest – much like the “priest simplex” of years past? Exactly where does a priest formed by many years of college and seminary have an advantage over one formed as I mentioned above when it comes to celebrating the Mass? Think about that a bit!

The rubrics of the Mass are rather tight. Any literate, well-prepared man should be able to fully understand and follow them.

A good priest should be well-equipped with the essential theological and philosophic education in order to truly understand the gist of liturgy and offer to God the Holy Sacrifice of Mass. 8 years of intense education is thus a necessity. How would you expect a priest with only 1 to 3 years of training to fulfill his sacred sacerdotal role in persona Christi when our current priests, who were usually trained for 6 to 8 years or even longer, still had tonnes of liturgical abuses during our Mass? Not to say some bad priests who are poorly rooted in Catholicism and thus catechise wrongly.

And I think 8 years is a suitable length for adequate discernment of priesthood vocations. Only a sufficiently long duration ensures clear and unequivocal desire as well as adamant determination to take up the lifelong challenge as a priest by those who feel called to it. It will even be a greater waste of energy when the ‘priests simplex’ as proposed forgo there Holy Orders and return to their secular life after reckless ordinations. The worst case is the unqualified priests taint the reputation of our Holy Church with sex scandals or other forms of improper morality - our already meek Church cannot bear another severe blow.

It is also worth noting that every priest may have a chance to assume a more important post in the Church hierarchy, such as being a Bishop or even the Pope. This fact renders the ‘lengthy’ education in monasteries more valuable and significant.

In fact, the presence of deacons at present and subdeacons, acolytes, lectioners and other Holy Orders of lower rankings in pre-Vatican II era already enables certain degree of division of labour within our Church. If you find yourself more adapted for technical aspects in parish affairs, be a deacon. If you find God calls you for greater obligation, go and be a priest.

I think the question we now face is how to educate some laymen properly so as to alleviate the workload of priests and function as leaders and educators in parishes. Can laymen participate more in evangelization programmes, leaving priests to focus more on sacred affairs?

 

[Urn]

Do you actually believe that becoming a priest is simply a profession like an engineer or a doctor?
You are soo of base my friend.
Someone that is tasked with taking Jesus place and prepare the Bread of Heaven and hear our confessions and using Jesus power absolve us
Married priests are NOT the solution. There are many reasons why, theological and biblical.
Even becoming a Deacon is a discernment process.

I would suggest you ponder this.

Holy orders is a very special sacrament and it has to be conferred properly or we again risk to produce MORE problems than we try to avoid.

Peace

Not at all. Being a priest or a deacon is not a “profession”, it’s a vocation.

Why (at least) 8 years of training in the Western world for a man to celebrate the Mass in the Catholic Church?

That’s not true in Africa. That’s certainly not true in the Orthodox State Churches.

Any real answer?

 

[Urn]

I’ve thought this for some time, as a temporary solution at least.

Why not a tier of priests who say Mass, which surely can’t take more than a year or so of training, and another tier who study for the more complicated work of confessions, counselling, prep for the sacraments and so on.

It’s true that the ‘Mass priests’ probably wouldn’t command the respect of the people as much as the other tier, but does that matter? Thousands, millions, are being deprived of Mass with the present system of long training .That’s what matters, really, surely?

Let’s break this down. How long should it take for a man to be prepared to celebrate the Mass?

The first key would be to make the selection process extremely thorough. As it it today, too many problematic men become ordained and 8 years of formation hasn’t fixed that.

The second key would be celebrating the Mass according to the rubrics. That goes directly back to #1.

I think the formation could be much shorter and in many cases it could be done right in one’s parish over a period of 2-3 years.

Most here I suspect won’t be able to even consider what we are talking about. They will reject it out of hand. I don’t think Pope Francis would however.

Without a doubt the most critical part would be the selection process. I think in most cases those that most desperately want to be priests and the parish groupies should be the very last men chosen. This wouldn’t be something for most obsessed liturgy wonks. Finding truly good men would be the key.

 

[Urn]

.

In my day we were a Navy family, moved here and there a lot, I remember one move found us in a community without a Church building. Our Priest celebrated Mass in a areoplane hanger for a year, Papa Francisco is right , you do what you have to do. You can’t neglect the need, no matter the circumstance. Peace, Carlan

Amen.

That obviously doesn’t mean we are to become cavalier or reckless, but it does mean the Church does need to do a better job of satisfying the needs.

 

[Urn]

It never pays to jump ahead of the Church. They want the Church to conform to the current culture.

Obedience is better than sacrifice.

“Current culture?” You mean the demand for the Mass?

 

[Urn]

the process is fine the way it is

So you say. I’m not sure Pope Francis I would agree.

 

[Urn]

Every few months, we get a new poster that staunchly defends his oddball position, neatly refuting every honest critique or error pointed out.

Wow… Ad hominem attack to start…

*Judas Iscariot: Why this waste! This money spent building and maintaining a grand church could have been saved for 10,000 days wages and given to the poor…

Jesus Christ: Leave them alone; they has done a good thing for me. The poor you will always have with you, and whenever you wish you can do good to them, but you will not always have me. *

Non-responsive. Many of these churches are now falling down or have been razed. “Good thing” indeed!

After Matthew 26
I don’t see how holding mass in somebody’s garage when there is a grand church a five minute walk away, would attract more parishioners. When the distance was too far, the main parish would often build a simple “mission” parish to provide a dignified place of worship closer to the affected members of the faithful.

I have absolutely no question that you are telling the truth here!

The church’s clergy has always been among the most educated in society. You shouldn’t send the poor man out ill equipped to handle all those who are too “smart” for church. You wouldn’t want the priest unaware of the jeopardy divorce and attempted remarriage puts on someone’s soul. You wouldn’t want a priest unaware that a woman who receives an abortion or a doctor who performs one cannot receive sacramental absolution without first lifting her or his excommunication.

Why does it take 8 years for a man to celebrate the Mass?

Teaching all these things takes time. They may sound like “technicalities”, but the church cannot accept risking humanity’s salvation by under educating and under forming her clergy.

See above.

 

[banjo]

How long should it take for a man to be prepared to celebrate the Mass?

Urn,
If the only thing a priest had to do was celebrate Mass it might not take 8 years of preparation. Without a proper education what will he say if someone asks him a question? Priests must teach; they must guide and counsel their flock. Training in theology, philosophy, the Bible, and Church history and dogmas are also necessary aspects of the formation of priests.

 

[Urn]

A good priest should be well-equipped with the essential theological and philosophic education in order to truly understand the gist of liturgy and offer to God the Holy Sacrifice of Mass. 8 years of intense education is thus a necessity. How would you expect a priest with only 1 to 3 years of training to fulfill his sacred sacerdotal role in persona Christi when our current priests, who were usually trained for 6 to 8 years or even longer, still had tonnes of liturgical abuses during our Mass? Not to say some bad priests who are poorly rooted in Catholicism and thus catechise wrongly.

Why does it take 8 years to prepare a man to celebrate the Mass?

And I think 8 years is a suitable length for adequate discernment of priesthood vocations. Only a sufficiently long duration ensures clear and unequivocal desire as well as adamant determination to take up the lifelong challenge as a priest by those who feel called to it. It will even be a greater waste of energy when the ‘priests simplex’ as proposed forgo there Holy Orders and return to their secular life after reckless ordinations. The worst case is the unqualified priests taint the reputation of our Holy Church with sex scandals or other forms of improper morality - our already meek Church cannot bear another severe blow.

PLENTY of problematic priests now which suggests the 8 year formation isn’t doing what you suggest.

It is also worth noting that every priest may have a chance to assume a more important post in the Church hierarchy, such as being a Bishop or even the Pope. This fact renders the ‘lengthy’ education in monasteries more valuable and significant.

And?

In fact, the presence of deacons at present and subdeacons, acolytes, lectioners and other Holy Orders of lower rankings in pre-Vatican II era already enables certain degree of division of labour within our Church. If you find yourself more adapted for technical aspects in parish affairs, be a deacon. If you find God calls you for greater obligation, go and be a priest.

Why does it take 8 years to prepare a man to celebrate the Mass? It doesn’t in Chad, Africa. It doesn’t in many Orthodox communities. Why 7-8 years?

I think the question we now face is how to educate some laymen properly so as to alleviate the workload of priests and function as leaders and educators in parishes. Can laymen participate more in evangelization programmes, leaving priests to focus more on sacred affairs?

Why not train select men to celebrate the Mass?

 

[Urn]

Urn,
If the only thing a priest had to do was celebrate Mass it might not take 8 years of preparation. Without a proper education what will he say if someone asks him a question? Priests must teach; they must guide and counsel their flock. Training in theology, philosophy, the Bible, and Church history and dogmas are also necessary aspects of the formation of priests.

Now we are getting somewhere – EXCELLENT question.

As an example, the sacrament of penance takes a man that is not only a priest but also half a psychologist, etc.

That’s the reason for this thread. Maybe the Church does have to find a way to specifically ordain men to celebrate the Mass. Outrageous you say? Well it’s certainly thinking outside of the box. The Church ordains men for service (deacons.) Maybe it needs to ordain men specifically to celebrate the Mass?

I don’t pretend to know all the answers. But people are going to have to start looking at this question with far more objectivity.

 

[runningdude]

Wow… Ad hominem attack to start…

And yet, my prediction seems accurate.

I hoped to warn you before you get banned or bored, as these are the usual results for posters who start this kind of thread.

 

[Urn]

And yet, my prediction seems accurate.

I hoped to warn you before you get banned or bored, as these are the usual results for posters who start this kind of thread.

Wow, you truly are rude, aren’t you?

“Banned or bored” Because I posted a commentary by Pope Francis about the liturgy?

Just what is the matter with you?

 

[runningdude]

Yes, but I was under the impression that a simplex priest is not just a priest who doesn’t have the faculties, but who doesn’t even have the power/ability to hear confessions. I was thinking that, because the power to hear confessions is conferred separately in the ordination rite–or at least it is in the 1962 Form of it–that what makes a priest simplex is simply not conferring that on him. But then I was thinking, is that even possible?

I’d image the “powers” are only symbolically conferred separately. As a priest, he could technically hear confessions if so permitted, but due to the differences in canon law back then, there was no such permission that could be granted.

 

[april32010]

if one thinks of priests in a utilitarian light,(dispenser of communion) i suppose this makes sense.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I’d image the “powers” are only symbolically conferred separately. As a priest, he could technically hear confessions if so permitted, but due to the differences in canon law back then, there was no such permission that could be granted.

But aren’t the words also required to ordain? Not just the laying on of hands? Isn’t the intent expressed via words?