I can't stop thinking about this comment from Jorge Cardinale Bergoglio (Pope Francis)

[Urn]

if one thinks of priests in a utilitarian light,(dispenser of communion) i suppose this makes sense.

Not at all.

Few here even want to face the question: why does it take 8 years to prepare a man to celebrate the Mass? It certainly doesn’t even today in developing countries – where the faith is often the strongest. It certainly didn’t in centuries past in most of the world. Nor does it today in some Orthodox churches.

It’s this very difficult sort of problem that I think Pope Francis just might have the courage to face.

 

[Urn]

I don’t think a long formation provides the best assurance of a good priest in the end. I think an extremely thorough vetting process at the very beginning would be far more effective. A vetting process that might be difficult to implement today because comparatively so few men even become priests today.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I keep seeing the question “why does it take 8 years for a man to become a priest”? Well, it doesn’t really, at least in the US. It takes about 4, maybe 5 depending on the degree they earn. Seminary is “graduate school”, in order to be accepted one must already have a Bachelor’s degree and have a certain number of credit hours in philosophy & theology.

Most of the priests that I know have Masters of Divinity. Most of them spent 4 years in seminary, which included a pastoral year, where they worked in a parish setting, which usually comes after their ordination to the diaconate.

Here is a link to the ‘Program of Priestly Formation’ for the US.
I strongly suggest that anyone who wants to question the Church about her policies read this, it will answer most, if not all of your questions.

 

[Urn]

I keep seeing the question “why does it take 8 years for a man to become a priest”? Well, it doesn’t really, at least in the US. It takes about 4, maybe 5 depending on the degree they earn. Seminary is “graduate school”, in order to be accepted one must already have a Bachelor’s degree and have a certain number of credit hours in philosophy & theology.

Most of the priests that I know have Masters of Divinity. Most of them spent 4 years in seminary, which included a pastoral year, where they worked in a parish setting, which usually comes after their ordination to the diaconate.

Here is a link to the ‘Program of Priestly Formation’ for the US.
I strongly suggest that anyone who wants to question the Church about her policies read this, it will answer most, if not all of your questions.

Bachelors + seminary is right around 8 years… Add another year or two if one’s bachelors degree did not include sufficient study of philosophy.

Why does it take so long? It doesn’t take that long in developing countries for a man to become a Catholic priest. It certainly didn’t in generations past even here in the Western world. It still doesn’t in some Orthodox communities/churches.

In the diaconate formation in my diocese it takes 5 years. The 5 years is by no means a rigorous grind but ti still takes 5 years. It doesn’t matter if you have a college degree or not. It doesn’t even matter if you ever attended college. Why is that? Why does it take 5 years?

 

[Urn]

I realize many aren’t even able to address my question. It most definitely is “thinking out of the box” and many just can’t do that. Their responses are destined to be negative.

In a way I wonder if priests are like medical doctors in a way? There are a shortage of MD’s in this world not because there is a shortage of very bright and motivated people who want to become doctors. It often has to do more with the cost and with the shortage of space in medical schools. Neither problem is something the AMA is keen to see solved any time soon in the USA.

How would the existing hierarchy respond to a different track for ordaining priests to celebrate the Mass? You can bet there would be serious resistance even if the pope was strongly in favor of such an initiative. Something like that would cause actual COMPETITION within the Church. It would help to solve the “crisis of vocations” and end a lot of the leverage many priests enjoy because of that “crisis.”

I hope Pope Francis pursues this. The current model is not functioning well.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Urn,

READ the Program of Priestly Formation!!
All of your questions are answered!

It is not something that was written in a vacuum, just for the US. JPII is actually the one who got the ball rolling. But you would know that, if you would at least read the Introduction.

 

[Urn]

Urn,

READ the Program of Priestly Formation!!
All of your questions are answered!

It is not something that was written in a vacuum, just for the US. JPII is actually the one who got the ball rolling. But you would know that, if you would at least read the Introduction.

No, they are not…

Not by a long shot.

Why are priests formed in a shorter time in other parts of the world? Necessity? Lack of resources? How about in generations past here in the West? What about some Orthodox communities? Why the difference?

I still don’t know what it takes so long to prepare a man to celebrate the Mass? I understand that it takes a Catholic priest to celebrate the Mass. And I understand in some cases that priests require 8 (or even more) years of preparation given their eventual duties. But to put that requirement on ALL Catholic priests here in the West? Why?

Maybe there DOES need to be a discrete “class” of priest that is focused on celebrating the Mass?

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Mass is just one very small part of what a priest does.
The fact that you don’t seem to want to understand that and want to reduce a priest to a “sacramental robot” tells me that you have very little understanding of what Holy Orders are all about.

I have a priest friend who works in the vocations department. I help him out every now & then with special events, and have become very involved in the Vocation’s awareness program in my diocese. I say this only to share that I have a deeper knowledge of this particular subject, than the average “lay” person.

Yes, we need more priests, and they need to be men who can tend to the diverse needs of the people they serve.
We don’t need quantity, we need ***quality! ***

That is why there is a ‘Program of Priestly Formation’

No, they are not…

Not by a long shot.

Why are priests formed in a shorter time in other parts of the world? Necessity? Lack of resources? How about in generations past here in the West? What about some Orthodox communities? Why the difference?

I still don’t know what it takes so long to prepare a man to celebrate the Mass? I understand that it takes a Catholic priest to celebrate the Mass. And I understand in some cases that priests require 8 (or even more) years of preparation given their eventual duties. But to put that requirement on ALL Catholic priests here in the West? Why?

Maybe there DOES need to be a discrete “class” of priest that is focused on celebrating the Mass?

 

[fred_conty]

If 8 years of training and formation dosen’t solve problems with some priests who are ordained, then how is less time of 1 year of training and formation going to solve problems?

Where are you going to find men willing to vow celebacy for their whole life in 1 year?
That is a big commitment which actually is a big fear of many men and a consideration which is difficult for many to commit themselves to. Any volunteers?

It might be said that there are places where priests are ordained in a short amount of time. The reason for this may be because the level of education in those places is wanting, and so the priests with less education can manage. That is what I would guess. But just because a priest is a simplex priest dosen’t mean he would not be pounded with lots of questions just like a standard priest. And if he is not prepared for these smart deep questions, what may we expect the results of that situation to be? That they are following a shepherd who knows very little or who is bady uninformed.

By the way, the simplex priest, Fr. Solanus, went thu all the training and education of the other ordinary priests. But from what I got from his biography, he was ordained simplex mainly because he did not know German or French well enough to hear confessions, and that was a big factor in determining that he be a simplex priest. This would also affect his ability to preach.

The shortage of priests is a problem today, and Jesus gave us the solution. “Pray that …”.
Examination of conscience time. When was the last time you sincerely prayed for God to send workers into his vinyard?

Just some thoughts and more questions.

“I am the good shepherd, I know mine, and mine know me.”

 

[runningdude]

But aren’t the words also required to ordain? Not just the laying on of hands? Isn’t the intent expressed via words?

I found an English translation of the 1962 ordination liturgy, and in the commentary it described only the laying of hands as the “essential matter”, and the recitation of the following words as the “essential form”:
Essential Form of Holy Ordination:

Almighty Father, we pray that you bestow on these servants of yours the dignity of the priesthood. Renew in their hearts the spirit of holiness, so that they may be steadfast in this second degree of the priestly office received from you, O God, and by their own lives suggest a rule of life to others.

I am uncertain of the reliability of the commentary, but if correct, then these gestures and prayers, alone, would confer the entirety of the second order of the the priesthood. Any limitations would be a function of restrictions imposed by canon law, rather than a lack of sacramental ability to perform them.

I suspect that since the office of “priest simplex” no longer exists in canon law, any priests old enough to have been ordained in such a manner would now be retired, and would automatically be granted the faculties that any other retired priest would normally receive.

 

[Urn]

Mass is just one very small part of what a priest does.

No. It may be one of the many things a priest does but it’s so monumentally important that it in no way is a “small part” of what a priest does. No way. Shortages of priests to celebrate the Mass has had a terribly negative impact on the Church.

The fact that you don’t seem to want to understand that and want to reduce a priest to a “sacramental robot” tells me that you have very little understanding of what Holy Orders are all about.

I didn’t say that at all – you did. Normally I would find your “sacramental robot” crack to be highly offensive but I realize it’s a product of your frustration because you really don’t know how to respond to the question I asked. You cannot seem to think outside of the box on this matter, which in no way is a surprise. All you are really able to do is defend the status quo.

I have a priest friend who works in the vocations department. I help him out every now & then with special events, and have become very involved in the Vocation’s awareness program in my diocese. I say this only to share that I have a deeper knowledge of this particular subject, than the average “lay” person.

So? If anything that tells me that you would even be more likely to defend the status quo. That you would be averse to really looking at this matter with wide-open eyes and an open mind.

Yes, we need more priests, and they need to be men who can tend to the diverse needs of the people they serve.
We don’t need quantity, we need ***quality! ***

Here’s where you fly off the tracks. Equating the length of priestly formation to the “quality” of the formation is simply wrong. More specifically, suggesting the length of formation is the prime (or even one prime) indicator in determining if a priest is prepared to celebrate the Mass (or even how well he will celebrate the Mass once allowed) is simply wrong.

That is why there is a ‘Program of Priestly Formation’

I suspect Pope Francis will make some big changes to such guidelines. At least I hope he does.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

CAF really needs to add a “Like” button!

If 8 years of training and formation dosen’t solve problems with some priests who are ordained, then how is less time of 1 year of training and formation going to solve problems?

Where are you going to find men willing to vow celebacy for their whole life in 1 year?
That is a big commitment which actually is a big fear of many men and a consideration which is difficult for many to commit themselves to. Any volunteers?

It might be said that there are places where priests are ordained in a short amount of time. The reason for this may be because the level of education in those places is wanting, and so the priests with less education can manage. That is what I would guess. But just because a priest is a simplex priest dosen’t mean he would not be pounded with lots of questions just like a standard priest. And if he is not prepared for these smart deep questions, what may we expect the results of that situation to be? That they are following a shepherd who knows very little or who is bady uninformed.

By the way, the simplex priest, Fr. Solanus, went thu all the training and education of the other ordinary priests. But from what I got from his biography, he was ordained simplex mainly because he did not know German or French well enough to hear confessions, and that was a big factor in determining that he be a simplex priest. This would also affect his ability to preach.

The shortage of priests is a problem today, and Jesus gave us the solution. “Pray that …”.
Examination of conscience time. When was the last time you sincerely prayed for God to send workers into his vinyard?

Just some thoughts and more questions.

“I am the good shepherd, I know mine, and mine know me.”

 

[Urn]

If 8 years of training and formation dosen’t solve problems with some priests who are ordained, then how is less time of 1 year of training and formation going to solve problems?

Where did you get the “1 year of training and formation”? I never suggested that. First, what makes you think that a long formation will weed-out the bad candidates and retain the good ones? Please stop and ponder that a bit. Second, might it be possible that some good men shy away from the priesthood simply because of the lengthy formation? Please consider that as well.

I’m not here to try and define another formation route – only that new ones should be considered. I will give you an example of one that I know about first hand. An acquaintance of mine (outside the USA) is a convert to Greek Orthodoxy. After about 10 years in a parish, his priest asked him (not the other way around) if he would consider undergoing the formation to become a deacon? I suspect he was chosen because his pastor had been able to watch him for a number of years and because his pastor realized the gifts this man had been given by God. He agreed and it took about 2-3 years focusing largely on praxis and formal self-study directed by his pastor.

Continued evaluation of his progress and his gifts made his bishop request that he continue to undergo formation with the possibility that he one day be ordained a priest. He agreed and that happened 2-3 years later, again largely through praxis and directed self-study. That’s a world away from how Catholic priests are formed – at least in the West.

Why couldn’t this model (or another of a great many) also work?

Where are you going to find men willing to vow celebacy for their whole life in 1 year? That is a big commitment which actually is a big fear of many men and a consideration which is difficult for many to commit themselves to. Any volunteers?

Pardon? I’m not sure what you are asking? Here’s a thought though. Perhaps a second formation process could come with the change of ordaining married men to the priesthood in the Latin Rite? If the Pope changed the formation process, he could also change the celibacy requirement.

It might be said that there are places where priests are ordained in a short amount of time. The reason for this may be because the level of education in those places is wanting, and so the priests with less education can manage. That is what I would guess. But just because a priest is a simplex priest dosen’t mean he would not be pounded with lots of questions just like a standard priest. And if he is not prepared for these smart deep questions, what may we expect the results of that situation to be? That they are following a shepherd who knows very little or who is bady uninformed.

Perhaps there needs to be an additional class of priests? Perhaps their entire focus could be on celebrating the Mass? I know more than a few priests today that are badly uninformed yet they made it through many, many years of formation.

By the way, the simplex priest, Fr. Solanus, went thu all the training and education of the other ordinary priests. But from what I got from his biography, he was ordained simplex mainly because he did not know German or French well enough to hear confessions, and that was a big factor in determining that he be a simplex priest. This would also affect his ability to preach.

So?

The shortage of priests is a problem today, and Jesus gave us the solution. “Pray that …”.

Examination of conscience time. When was the last time you sincerely prayed for God to send workers into his vinyard?

Just some thoughts and more questions.

“I am the good shepherd, I know mine, and mine know me.”

Jesus also gave us humans with the ability to think and pray. I appreciate you not being able to “blue sky” this matter. Many cannot. In addition to the “priest shortage” I think additional priests would be a huge godsend to the Church.

Maybe more, smaller “neighborhood churches” could be formed where real community could be developed, rather than giant parishes with a half dozen Masses each Sunday? Just a though…