I did not consent to my creation

[Viki63]

You do seem to be depressed, Irish. I hope you will get the help you need, and come to see the beauty and joy that life can be. And I say that though I’m in my 60s, partially disabled, and have all the family problems you could want.

A monk said, we should praise God for rescuing us from the misery of non-existence.
I cannot imagine a worse fate than to cease to exist.

 

[Lochias]

Here is my thinking: God is love. His nature is love. He cannot violate His nature. All that God does is out of love - even His justice.

Good point, here.

 

[Maryann_C]

A monk said, we should praise God for rescuing us from the misery of non-existence.
I cannot imagine a worse fate than to cease to exist.

Amen

Y
Now. You have expressed classic symptoms of clinical depression. This is an often fatal illness. Please take yourself to a medical expert.

Amen, Amen

Your plight reeks of chutzpah! You sound like the adage from the 1960’s: Stop the world! I wanna get off!" (Yawn)
If you are at all serious, and are not on this site just for the sake of argument, you need to see a priest. I suggest you get an appointment with one.

A little more charity in your response please George. I included the above quote from Julia Mae to highlight what several people here have said, and if the OP is truly depressed or even in despair ( which is a sin I understand) your comments could be harmful to his body and soul not to mention your own since you would be held accountable for your damaging words.
Dear Irish, I hope you are still listening; Depression and despair are not just physical but they can also be spiritual attacks from the devil who wants us to think we are worthless and can never measure up to be good enough to make it to Heaven so why even bother. I have been in a 6 month fight for the soul of my 17 y.o daughter with satan over the very same issue- Praise God she is out the other end but I have to cover her in prayer daily and ask God to surround her with angels to defend her in battle- Obviously God has a plan for her or satan would not have fought so hard. I agree with JM also on the fact that God probably has a big p0lan for you that is why you are now under attack. Seek out a Pries now yes and when you seek a Dr or Dr of Psychology look for one who is also a Catholic - apparently there is a list on line,
Today is the feast of Divine Mercy please read and discover this beautiful message for our time from our Lord Jesus through St Faustina. I am sure there is alot of coverage on the message on EWTN right now today on this very topic. May God bless you and raise you up. I will add you to my prayer list.

 

[Irish_Hare]

There was time long ago when we didn’t have time, as persons, to think about such things, let alone sit around and discuss these thoughts.

What changed? Unemployment? Invention of the internet?

I think that questions like this tend to find their roots in a dangerous focus on self. “I didn’t consent to my creation”…and yet, all of our lessons and teaching from God tell us that Creation isn’t about us to begin with. We find true peace and love in life as we learn better to serve others, and it is through doing so that we learn to see God and all His works in the lives we’re given, regardless of circumstances.

Yes, sometimes those circumstances are hard, and the lessons can be long in the learning, but that’s why God gave us all the tools we need to draw strength and closeness from Him to keep going.

Jesus already tells us that things aren’t going to be easy for those who would try to seek Him this way: “Take up your cross and follow me.” Irish, I’ll be praying for you and your strength in the days ahead. Love ya, sir / madame. As a fellow member in the Body of Christ, I’ll be sure to keep you in my intentions as I offer up my own sufferings during each day.

Thanks.

Your plight reeks of chutzpah! You sound like the adage from the 1960’s: Stop the world! I wanna get off!" (Yawn)
If you are at all serious, and are not on this site just for the sake of argument, you need to see a priest. I suggest you get an appointment with one.

Not so much thanks.

 

[Kithrus]

I’m sorry but this is smelling strongly as a troll attempt. Until OP can come up with a more linear argument that leads from what point in his or her life that started this desire, I’m not sold.

 

[Irish_Hare]

I’m sorry but this is smelling strongly as a troll attempt. Until OP can come up with a more linear argument that leads from what point in his or her life that started this desire, I’m not sold.

Charity would assume that the OP was sincere. I am not obliged to spell out to you my life’s experiences.

I don’t think we must be ‘sold’ when our neighbour is looking for our help. We just do it.

 

[yellowantphil]

I found an interesting quote by Athenagoras, who I guess was a Christian apologist from the second century. The text is here, and I found the quote on this site.
A Plea for the Christians:

We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we shall live another life, better than the present one, and heavenly, not earthly… or, falling with the rest, a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere by-work, and that we should perish and be annihilated.

(Emphasis mine.)

 

[Qoeleth]

Have you thought about reading some Buddhist scriptures. The idea is the cessation of existence and hence the cessation of suffering. Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, separation from that which is desires is suffering…

I also suggest Schopenhauer.

When you have read these, re-read the Christian text. I suggest Thomas a Kempis “The Imitation of Christ”. John of the Cross, etc.

Anyway, as Thomas More said, “We should live in this world as if we are weary of living.” So, I think you are on the verge of a spiritual awakeneing, perhaps going beyond the superficial “Youth Group” spirituality, which so often passes for Catholicism today.

 

[shoe]

Romans 9:20 says, “O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it: Why hast thou made me thus?”

As far as I know, Jesus is the only person who ever willingly consented to become a mortal (in order that we may have immortality).

 

[Iron_Donkey]

I did not consent to be created or born. I find myself now, alive, and forced to make a choice: either to follow all that Christ has commanded in order to arrive, at the end of my earthly life, in eternal paradise, or, I can reject the plan of God and spend my eternity in a miserable and tormented state we call hell. Now I understand there is the issue as to how you consult a non-being about his prospective creation, but we shall leave that aside for now.

I hear a lot about God respecting our free will and wanting us to have a free choice, but where is the freedom in having been created and born without your consent, and then forced to decide on two hard options:

1. To follow Jesus Christ: hard work in this life, paradise in the next;

or:

1. A life lived for oneself, with sporadic pleasurable experiences now and then, but finishing in the eternal misery of hell.

I say that if God truly respected our freedom and choice, he would offer us a third option: annihilation. That way, those of us who choose not to be part of this creation and who do not wish to make the best of a bad situation (having been created and born into a fallen world) by choosing God and doing all that that entails, actually have a real choice: to go back to the state of non-being they ‘had’ before God created them.

I don’t think the Catholic faith has an answer to my question. I suppose some would say that I am sick, either simply through having been a member of the fallen human race, or else that I am mentally ill, depressed, for example. But I am saying if I don’t want to be on the bandwagon, then surely I should be allowed to get off? Or does God simply insist that he will ‘be all in all’ for good or bad. Either way, we will be in God’s love, either in the burning passion of heaven, or the scorching fire of hell. Thus, God does not merely propose eternal life to us, he boxes us in, forcing us to make a choice without leaving any option for those who do not wish to participate.

First, you couldn’t have been asked since you didn’t exist. Obviously. As for why you are not then given the option of annihilation, consider this:

Heaven and Hell can be considered as reward and punishment, and that is unquestionably accurate to a certain extent.

But Heaven and Hell can all be thought of differently (in emphasis, if not content), in a way that I think will be more helpful to you.

Throughout this life, we shape who we are. We have free will, and can mold ourselves how we will (though God does of course offer assistance and make things possible which would not otherwise be possible). Depending on how we make ourselves, we will be either aligned to or opposed to God. After death, those who are opposed from God flee from Him - to Hell - because who they are is incompatible with who He is and they cannot stand the idea of being united with Him.

So how does this help? Well, in short, God will do what is best for us while respecting who we have made ourselves. We do not have and should not have total freedom, we cannot rewrite God in order to make Him compatible with us rather than the other way around. So, considering that a person has made themselves to be completely opposed to God, what is the best thing to do for that person?

Annihilation? But how can that be considered best? What good can someone who does not exist have? You could say that they were avoiding evil, but evil exists as a lack of or a perversion of good. So in annihilating a person, you remove all good things from them, which is brings a total lack of good, which is in fact the most evil thing one can do. You do also remove their experience of evil, but that is in fact also removing a good thing as well. Desired or not, granting this wish would be evil, and so God will not do it.

Reform them by force? This would be a violation of will.

The only other option is to allow them to continue as they have made themselves. Which is Hell.

And Hell is objectively better than non-existence.

Now, you also pointed out at some point that you know you don’t deserve heaven, and don’t want to go to hell. I just have to respond that no one deserves heaven (and no one wants hell either). So rather than despairing that you don’t deserve heaven, it is better to simply do your best and to take full advantage of those things Christ instituted to handle the fact that none of us deserve heaven. Even so, nothing is certain, but at that point we can just trust in God’s mercy and goodness, and hope.

Remember that the three things which endure are faith, hope, and love. Hope is the least talked about, but, I think, the one you may want to examine.

 

[sj2]

Interesting thoughts.

What I finally came up with was that free will =/= endless choices. I do not have the free will to make wings grow out of my back and fly–that is not anti free will, that’s just impossible.

I did not consent to be born a woman–is that anti free will?
I did not consent to be born in the nation in which I was–is that anti free will?
I did not consent to be born poor/rich, or diseased/healthy, or short/tall, or with a gift for music or two left feet for dancing, or red-headed, etc.

The list could go on and on, potentially making our “pre-existence” one huge negotiation between us and God with us at any point being able to walk away from the table saying, “Nay, I won’t sign.” and then, BAM, annihilation. Somehow that doesn’t seem like the epitome of free will. It sounds like, well, playing god.

I think you don’t have that third choice (that the OP presented) because that third choice quite simply does not exist. We have free will to pursue any of all possibilities, but we do not have free will to create the impossible.

To take it to an easier example: Let’s say part of the *definition *of SJ2 is to have Momma SJ as a bio mom and Papa SJ as a bio dad. Then SJ2 can’t negotiate her parentage based on free will. TJ Momma and TJ Papa could never make SJ2. It is an impossibility.

Part of the definition of Irish Hare is that you exist. You can’t consent to change your definition, because once you change your definition, then it is no longer you, “Irish Hare” in the negotiations.

Some people are born with the ability to sing–there is no free will because it is a definition, not a choice, but they have the free will to use it or not. You (and I and everyone else I know!) are born with the ability to exist–there is no free will because it is a definition, not a choice, but we have the free will in how to live.

Too deep for me, but this was fun to ponder–hope I made some sense.

 

[greylorn]

I did not consent to be created or born. I find myself now, alive, and forced to make a choice: either to follow all that Christ has commanded in order to arrive, at the end of my earthly life, in eternal paradise, or, I can reject the plan of God and spend my eternity in a miserable and tormented state we call hell. Now I understand there is the issue as to how you consult a non-being about his prospective creation, but we shall leave that aside for now.

I hear a lot about God respecting our free will and wanting us to have a free choice, but where is the freedom in having been created and born without your consent, and then forced to decide on two hard options:

1. To follow Jesus Christ: hard work in this life, paradise in the next;

or:

1. A life lived for oneself, with sporadic pleasurable experiences now and then, but finishing in the eternal misery of hell.

I say that if God truly respected our freedom and choice, he would offer us a third option: annihilation. That way, those of us who choose not to be part of this creation and who do not wish to make the best of a bad situation (having been created and born into a fallen world) by choosing God and doing all that that entails, actually have a real choice: to go back to the state of non-being they ‘had’ before God created them.

I don’t think the Catholic faith has an answer to my question. I suppose some would say that I am sick, either simply through having been a member of the fallen human race, or else that I am mentally ill, depressed, for example. But I am saying if I don’t want to be on the bandwagon, then surely I should be allowed to get off? Or does God simply insist that he will ‘be all in all’ for good or bad. Either way, we will be in God’s love, either in the burning passion of heaven, or the scorching fire of hell. Thus, God does not merely propose eternal life to us, he boxes us in, forcing us to make a choice without leaving any option for those who do not wish to participate.

Because you are arguing from a religious perspective that makes great emotional sense but little logical sense, a bit of divergent thinking would disclose another set of alternatives.

For example, suppose that your “soul,” the component primarily responsible for mind, had always existed— but in a state of perpetual non-consciousness for lack of sensory (name removed by moderator)ut. Then, God came along and constructed a brain-body system which glommed onto you and fed you enough sensory (name removed by moderator)ut so that you could figure out that you existed and begin wondering why.

Under that scheme, you cannot blame God for not giving you a choice about existing. He had no control over that. He gave you the option to acquire a modicum of self-awareness. Keep working at that. If you acquire enough of it, you may be able to make the choice, after your demise, to accept nirvana and be done with it. At the moment you don’t know enough to consider such a desperate choice, much less to actually make it.

Until then you remain subject to physicist Richard Feynman’s paraphrased laws of thermodynamics:

• You cannot win.
• You can’t break even.
• You cannot leave the game.

Then there’s Greylorn’s Conundrum— The Rules are a mystery.

 

[1AugustSon7]

You did not consent because you could not consent because you did not exist and, therefore, did not have a will.

Existence is always better than non-existence: there is no comparison between the two.

Existence is always better, even if it in a subjective sense it’s a terrible existence. One of the most salient points of the Gospel is that this life cannot deprive us of our greatest good, God: only we can do that by our own free choice or, as the Council of Trent puts it, God does not foresake us unless we first foresake Him. From what is written about the Beatific Vision, it becomes clear that even suffering in this life is ultimately well worth that Eternal Reward, Who is the Triune God. The hardships we suffer here cannot compare to the joy we shall experience there, which is an ineffable joy that we will not be able to lose, as we can lose salvation here.

 

[BobCatholic]

Existence is always better than non-existence: there is no comparison between the two.

Then you disagree with Jesus Christ.

[BIBLEDRB]Mark 14:21[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Qoeleth]

Then you disagree with Jesus Christ.

[BIBLEDRB]Mark 14:21[/BIBLEDRB]

Indeed. And further, as says the Preacher: “Rather than the living, I salute the dead. Happier than either is He who has never existed, who has not seen the evil under the Sun.”

And St. Augustine: “Existence is nothing but a relentless trial”

 

[Gaber]

Indeed. And further, as says the Preacher: “Rather than the living, I salute the dead. Happier than either is He who has never existed, who has not seen the evil under the Sun.”

So according to the “Preacher,” God made a huge mistake? And St. Augustine: “Existence is nothing but a relentless trial” Yes, and Buddha said “Life is suffering.” But suffering is personally induced to “lend verification to a supposotitious existence.” Suffering is wrong thinking about reality, or arguing with reality. It is easy to see: recently on a documentary about Why Ships Sink," one of the phenomem explored was the human tendency to deny the existence of an emergency, even to the point of succumbiing to it rather than acting resourcefully. On a global scale we see this in the lack of respone on every level to the poisoning of the sea, the air, and every food system known. We just don’t see it, because we so have our attention elsewhere, and won’t see it until it is too late. Freezing up it the most natural and first reaction we fall into.

That is why training is so essential in order to avooid disaster. And that, supposedly, is the bailiwick of religion regarding the soul, however misconceived an idea that is, despite its reality. But habit is an addiction worse than heroin and alcoho, and it is passed from generation to generation and distorted more and more. Only a few wake up from it and we revile them mightily for rocking the boat of our complacency and ignorance. We even crucify them. Again and again.

And what happens? We have someone, vast numbers of someones, who “did not consent.” and don’t see what is goiing on. And the fix? That takes hard work and introspection, and willingness to do the unthinkable: accept reality as it is, not as we think it or want it to be. One man said “The most dangerous activity is to seek reality; it will destroy your world.” In other words, we have to give up our habitual paradigme of what we think the world, and we in it, are. When we do that act of acceptance, or it happens to us through gracxe, the world changes in an instant. In the mean time we will continue our “relentless trial” o “suffering” until our mind is exhausted from it and we can see past it. And maybe that is the grace of death. But why not take the advice of the Sages of the Ages? Die before you die. That way the second death has no sting.